would you forgive?

[Ladyjane14]

To answer your question, LadyJane, seeing the MM in action with me after D day made me sick. He was pathetic. A coward. And I don't have an ounce of respect for him.

 

My eyes are open wide and have been for some time. I also want the BS to have her eyes opened too. It won't do for these MM to keep getting away with indiscretions, not matter how small they may appear.

 

You know, I think there's probably a pretty big difference between knowing that the MM lies to his wife.... and being 'in the loop' watching him do it.

 

I'm happy for you that you made it out of the rain, Freedom.

[Freedom Now]

I misread the statement in the fact that WWIU posted that she was behaving that way due to the fact that she has contacted the MM.

 

Stupid behavior? Yes. Disrespectful? Yes. Inappropriate? Absolutely.

 

But crazed? Making contact with her MM is many things but calling her "crazed" is a stretch.

 

Remember, we don't know the whole story. Just NF's side. And, because of her MM's lies, it may be inaccurate and distorted. Not her fault. If she doesn't know the entire truth, it is his fault not hers.

 

She fears that she has been told only 10% of the truth. That leaves alot of omissions on his part.

 

The point that I think was trying to be made was that there is a whole other side to the NC story. The OW's side and the MM's side. And it isn't always the OW making the contact.

[Freedom Now]

You know, I think there's probably a pretty big difference between knowing that the MM lies to his wife.... and being 'in the loop' watching him do it.

 

I'm happy for you that you made it out of the rain, Freedom.

 

Thanks LadyJane. I am happy I made it out too.

 

[Freedom Now]

D day is Discovery Day.

[Ladyjane14]

There is one thing I do believe. He is being honest with someone.

 

I think in alot of cases, the MM isn't honest with ANYONE... not even himself.

 

Waywards have to twist themselves up pretty good in order to justify their actions. They are often troubled and unhappy people. Whether their struggle is internal or external... it's still a struggle.

 

What does D Day mean?

 

D-day is Discovery Day.... when knowledge of the affair is revealed to the betrayed party.

[Ladyjane14]

The point that I think was trying to be made was that there is a whole other side to the NC story. The OW's side and the MM's side. And it isn't always the OW making the contact.

 

I agree that there's a whole other side. I'm just thinking that the FF must be particularly THICK is she can't see that she's offended NF in a very personal way. She's either not the sharpest knife in the drawer or she's one pancake short of a stack.

 

This isn't a case of not knowing the betrayed spouse well. This was almost a sisterly relationship if we're to believe NF. And I don't see any reason to doubt her on that.

[Chapter2]

Absolutely. This is THE great eye opener if you choose to look at it. There is nothing that can wipe the MM's reaction to D-Day from the OW's mind.

 

To have a man begging to be "free" from their vividly described "prison of a marriage" only to deny the OW on D-Day is achin to being hit in the face by a bus. You cannot get around the fact that they practically knocked their wife down in order to throw you under the bus as quickly as possible.

 

Meanwhile, the OW gets an opportunity to have her eyes opened too. If she's willing to look, that is.

[Chapter2]

There are two things that enable a woman or man with a conscience to continue in an affair. First, to believe the married person's description of their marriage and the reasons they stay (usually some noble bullsh*t that makes them seem really selfless) and second, not personalizing the BS. It is very easy to make them a "non-person" so to speak in your own mind in order to justify your own behavior.

 

Being able to personalize some of the BS's on LS has helped me see a lot of things I had not previously looked at.

 

I agree that this level of betrayal, your best friend and your husband must be unbearable on so many levels that one couldn't even imagine unless they had lived it.

 

This isn't a case of not knowing the betrayed spouse well. This was almost a sisterly relationship if we're to believe NF. And I don't see any reason to doubt her on that.

[NoIDidn't]

Hey NF,

 

I still stand by my first post on this. I don't think you have to forgive her now, but I do think it can be a consideration once some time has passed. Time can be days, weeks, years, decades. That's for you to decide.

 

I can just say for myself that if **I** was in this situation, both my H and the FF would have doorknob markings on their a*sses, if you know what I mean. My H would have to make a HUGE effort for me to even crack the door a little to even give him a chance to explain. You are so tame in this. I just know that I would go ballistic nine ways to Sunday.

 

You take your time with the whole forgiveness or not thing. Its not for anyone else to decide but you. As far as whether or not your H is still contacting her, you know him better than anyone else here does. It helps to hear the OW side, but I like to think my glass is half full (if you know what I mean).

 

You know what's best for you and yours.

[Ladyjane14]

There are two things that enable a woman or man with a conscience to continue in an affair. First, to believe the married person's description of their marriage and the reasons they stay (usually some noble bullsh*t that makes them seem really selfless) and second, not personalizing the BS. It is very easy to make them a "non-person" so to speak in your own mind in order to justify your own behavior.

 

You're right. There's this HUGE disconnect in the primary relationship and it's visible to the OW by way of MM's testimony.

 

The WS is usually a person who's in a state of emotional pain. The pain is REAL. It doesn't matter much if there's an understandable justification for it, or if there isn't. Afterall.... The truth is just a matter of perception.

 

The WS is a great saleman... because he BELIEVES in what he's selling. It's no crime for the OW to be sympathetic to that. We're talking about a friend in pain afterall.

 

This leads me back to why I think it's okay for a BS who's working at reconcilliation to take some risks. The WS is often in a state of great confusion, emotionally and spiritually.

 

You know... we jump on these guys sometimes as if they were The Devil Incarnate. And sometimes they are.

But most of the time they aren't.

 

I treated my man like a guy who had a physical illness. I treated it like he was bleeding from his ears. Because from the soul's standpoint... he was.

 

Not every guy is a good guy who just messed up and let his negative perceptions carry him away. But some are. And those that are DESERVE the honest chance their wives give them. In the worst case scenario... we're talking about enough rope (or leash) to hang themselves.

 

Where's the risk in that? Hell... my lawyer will still be there if I need him.

[Freedom Now]

Agreed LadyJane.

 

But some of these "good guys" are making their wives perceive them as such when in actuality, they are conniving ways to see their OW again once the dust has settled. And how is a wife to know if he is sincere or not? It is a tough, tough call.

 

Not all all "good guys" do this, I understand that. Mine did, so I can speak intelligently about this.

 

So I understand the BS wanting to take that risk, but only if she is armed with ALL the information about the affair. The entire truth. She needs to know what world she is navigating in. It is her right.

 

As a wife, I would feel so incredibly vulnerable and fragile in stepping into the arena of trusting again. It would be just so darned hard to do that.

 

I commend every woman who has that capability. But I urge them to make darned sure that she believes he is worth it.

 

The conundrum lies in the ability to trust and believe someone who has shown his unworthiness in that arena.

 

One could only hope that TRUE repentence can somehow be seen in these WS' actions. And, if that occurs, true healing and trust can occur.

 

I just don't know how you can, without crawling into his head, know if he is being truly, truly genuine or not.

 

THAT is the conundrum in this all. The only who will ever REALLY know is him.

[Ladyjane14]

But some of these "good guys" are making their wives perceive them as such when in actuality, they are conniving ways to see their OW again once the dust has settled. And how is a wife to know if he is sincere or not? It is a tough, tough call.

 

Realistically, MOST will 'fall off the wagon' a time or two before they get it right.... even the good ones. But that comes part and parcel with rebuilding.

 

It's not something that comes to us already assembled. It's put back together piece by piece.

 

So I understand the BS wanting to take that risk, but only if she is armed with ALL the information about the affair. The entire truth. She needs to know what world she is navigating in. It is her right.

 

Nevertheless.... there WILL come a point at which she's either got to accept that she knows what she needed to know The alternative is to get out of the relationship altogether.

 

'Checking' is something a BS has a difficult time letting go of. It becomes a bit of a 'security blanket'. Eventually, we have to "put the woobie down"... and trust. It's NOT trust in the FWS, it's trust in ourselves that must be cultivated.... the sure knowledge that we will HANDLE whatever comes.

 

As a wife, I would feel so incredibly vulnerable and fragile in stepping into the arena of trusting again. It would be just so darned hard to do that.

 

It sucks.

Really, the self-doubt is nearly consuming. I can't even count how may times I called myself a fool for putting myself out there. But it absolutely HAD to be done.

 

There's no other way around it. Trust can't be rebuilt if neither person is willing to 'test that branch'. Somebody's got to go first. And usually, the WS is in a greater state of internal conflict.

 

 

I just don't know how you can, without crawling into his head, know if he is being truly, truly genuine or not.

 

THAT is the conundrum in this all. The only who will ever REALLY know is him.

 

You can't. In some cases, I don't think the WS really even knows himself. I'm not talking about the dedicated cheater. I'm talking about the cheater 'in crisis'.... the guy who's acting outside his own sense of personal ethics, the guy who's given himself permission to do something he feels is wrong.

 

Meanwhile, the betrayed spouse and the OP are essentially in the same boat. They're just GUESSING. There can't be any truth told by a guy who doesn't really know what the truth is.

 

Bottom line, the ones who get hurt are the ones who haven't judged the risks accurately, the ones who get surprised, the ones who didn't see it coming. If you understand the risk, even an outcome that isn't emotionally satisfying is at least tolerable..

[Freedom Now]

You are absolutely correct.

 

In these situations, there absolutely has to be the faith in yourself that you will make it NO MATTER WHAT.

 

I admire your faith. Mine has been shaken to the core. I don't know if I would be able to make that leap of faith first. Too risky for me.

 

But, I have been hurt terribly and am still licking my wounds, so perhaps my thinking is distorted now.

 

I have always been able to trust someone unless they have given me a reason not to, and I have been able to extend that to NEW men in my life, but to the men that have lost that trust in the past, I don't know if I could go there.

 

I hope all goes well for you. I admire your tenacity. I, too, would go down swinging if I truly wanted to fight for a relationship.

 

Bravo.

[silktricks]

First, NF, there is absolutely no way that you can just leap into "I forgive". Someday you may be able to forgive her, but part of that depends on what you mean by "forgive". If forgiveness to you means accepting her back into your life as a friend, then I personally would never be able to forgive.

 

If, however, forgiveness to you means no longer hating her and wishing she'd get run over by a bus, then someday it would be good for you if you could forgive her. As everyone else pointed out, the forgiveness really isn't for her, it's for you. But forgiveness isn't forced, it works itself out in its own time. Frankly, if she would ever come to you begging for your forgiveness, it would probably come more easily. By the sound of things, however, that day will probably never come.

 

Second, though, is your husband still wanting "closure"?? I'm glad you told him in no uncertain terms that THAT'S not going to happen - at least not with just the two of them. Tell him that there's definitely something he can "close" in that case - the door on his way out!!

 

On to the next subject, though, forgiving and trusting your husband when you've been betrayed, what LJ says is smackdab on target. It's hard when you've been made a fool of to put yourself back up there to be made a fool of again. But when push comes to shove, if you ever again want a normal life with the man, then you have to do it. You now know, if you didn't before, pretty much how deceptive he can be. I say pretty much, because the odds of you knowing EVERYTHING is pretty slim. You have to go by your gut, your knowledge of the man you know, what is possible, and what you've discovered sereptitiously (because we all do a certain amount of both digging and trap laying after D-day) and how closely the stuff you dig up matches the stuff he says.

 

Forgiving is tough. Trusting is wwaaaayyyyy beyond tough. For a long time, I didn't think I'd be able to do it again. But for the most part (every once in awhile I still get a twinge) I do now trust him. He doesn't tell me every little thing, and I no longer feel the need to have him tell me every little thing. If I did, I believe that life together would no longer be worthwhile for either of us.

[whichwayisup]

I'm sorry, I held my questions as long as I could. I honestly have this question which way? What on earth makes you think he isn't contacting her? Why do you assume she is the one acting like a crazed teenager?

 

If he wants to talk to her, then he will. There is no way this was a simple friendship gone awry due to a man being victimized. I don't understand the double standard. I am respectfully asking you to help me see how it is so one sided and only the OW making the advances. How do you know this to be factual?

 

I can see you're taking this personally. This isn't about you, so please don't take my "crazed teenager" comment out of context and apply it you. I am talking about her exBestfriend, the OW. Her behaviour is childish and disrespectful. She was told not to call, it's over, and she keeps calling. NF even said her husband finally picked up the phone after she called over and over again...To me, that's obsessive behaviour. To call someone so many times in a row, and they ain't answering - That's something an inexperienced teen or someone with an out of control crush would do.

 

I don't know what you mean by factual. I am going on what NF has posted in her posts and replies to other posts...From what she is saying about her exBF, the OW, it's easy to paint a picture ...

 

Not speaking for WWIU.... But if NF has a high level of confidence at this stage in recovery, I think it's fairly prudent for her to assume innocence unless a reasonable doubt is presented. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

 

Trust has to be rebuilt on both sides. The betrayed spouse must learn to trust her husband again at some point. And the wayward spouse must learn to trust that a sense of normalcy will be returned to the marriage eventually.

Nicely put LJ.

 

I agree 100%, however, I am continually puzzled at the assumption made by WWIU and others that its only the OW contacting the MM. If that is what must be believed to achieve "normalcly" then so be it. It just doesn't seem wise in my opinion. But, that is just my opinion.

 

My question is why must returning to trust and normalcy automatically mean that the OW is "behaving as a crazed teenager" that is in need of serious help? I just don't understand that.

 

NF herself has said she can read her husband like a book, and if he's done something wrong, she'll know. I am going by what she has said. If he isn't calling her, and she's calling him all time - That is crazy behaviour seeing as the affair is over. She needs help because she has to get over it and let NF's husband out of her heart...She is hanging on and not letting go. Why is so wrong to say she needs help for that?

 

It's obvious he still cares about the OW and doesn't want to hurt her, but to be honest, his wifes feeling are much more important. The OW isn't part of their lives anymore, so it's time to close the door on her, forever.

 

Again - The crazed teen comment, stop making it about you because that is how it's coming off to me. I am not talking about you or any other OW on LS. I am talking about the exbestfriend. And what's worse is, she knows how it feel to be cheated upon seeing as her own husband cheated on her, and she leaned on NF and her husband for support, then turned around and did what her husband did to her, to her bestfriend!! Just shows how messed up her thinking had become, and her actions, being cruel and rude to her bestfriend so she could try and steal her husband......Got all jealous due to the fact that they had a good sex life - It upset her. (I am just para-phrasing what NF has already said in her posts...Maybe you need to go dig into her previous posts to get more info on this situation)

 

I misread the statement in the fact that WWIU posted that she was behaving that way due to the fact that she has contacted the MM.

 

Stupid behavior? Yes. Disrespectful? Yes. Inappropriate? Absolutely.

 

But crazed? Making contact with her MM is many things but calling her "crazed" is a stretch.

 

Remember, we don't know the whole story. Just NF's side. And, because of her MM's lies, it may be inaccurate and distorted. Not her fault. If she doesn't know the entire truth, it is his fault not hers.

 

She fears that she has been told only 10% of the truth. That leaves alot of omissions on his part.

 

The point that I think was trying to be made was that there is a whole other side to the NC story. The OW's side and the MM's side. And it isn't always the OW making the contact.

 

I hope for NF's sake her husband hasn't been calling the OW. If he has, then rightfully so - That's why she's been calling too. And if that is the case, then he's gonna find himself spending more time with her exbf and out of the house for good.

[Chapter2]

No, WWIU, you are mistaken in that I took your comment about "crazed teenager" personally. My perception is that just because someone says that the calling is onesided doesn't ever make it fact.

 

And, you can be sure I've read NF's thread thoroughly. I don't take everyone's story as gospel and in light of what I have experienced myself and through my friends, I know MM will say just about anything at anytime to appear to be innocent. But, you're right, if you are taking the story at face value then its very easy to paint a picture in which case I guess she could definitely be labeled crazy or obsessive.

 

You obviously know NF and her situation far better than I so I'll leave you to it.

 

I can see you're taking this personally. This isn't about you, so please don't take my "crazed teenager" comment out of context and apply it you. I am talking about her exBestfriend, the OW. Her behaviour is childish and disrespectful. She was told not to call, it's over, and she keeps calling. NF even said her husband finally picked up the phone after she called over and over again...To me, that's obsessive behaviour. To call someone so many times in a row, and they ain't answering - That's something an inexperienced teen or someone with an out of control crush would do.

 

I don't know what you mean by factual. I am going on what NF has posted in her posts and replies to other posts...From what she is saying about her exBF, the OW, it's easy to paint a picture ...

 

 

Nicely put LJ.

 

 

 

NF herself has said she can read her husband like a book, and if he's done something wrong, she'll know. I am going by what she has said. If he isn't calling her, and she's calling him all time - That is crazy behaviour seeing as the affair is over. She needs help because she has to get over it and let NF's husband out of her heart...She is hanging on and not letting go. Why is so wrong to say she needs help for that?

 

It's obvious he still cares about the OW and doesn't want to hurt her, but to be honest, his wifes feeling are much more important. The OW isn't part of their lives anymore, so it's time to close the door on her, forever.

 

Again - The crazed teen comment, stop making it about you because that is how it's coming off to me. I am not talking about you or any other OW on LS. I am talking about the exbestfriend. And what's worse is, she knows how it feel to be cheated upon seeing as her own husband cheated on her, and she leaned on NF and her husband for support, then turned around and did what her husband did to her, to her bestfriend!! Just shows how messed up her thinking had become, and her actions, being cruel and rude to her bestfriend so she could try and steal her husband......Got all jealous due to the fact that they had a good sex life - It upset her. (I am just para-phrasing what NF has already said in her posts...Maybe you need to go dig into her previous posts to get more info on this situation)

 

 

 

I hope for NF's sake her husband hasn't been calling the OW. If he has, then rightfully so - That's why she's been calling too. And if that is the case, then he's gonna find himself spending more time with her exbf and out of the house for good.

[Guest]

Noforgiveness is my user name. I have chosen this as a constant reminder to never forgive my best friend no matter how much i may miss the years we spent together. She was truly my bestfriend lunchbuddy, shopping buddy, spabuddy, gymbuddy etc etc.

 

She went through a bitter divorce recently and got much support from my husband and me.

 

From my husbands support she tried to develop it into much much more. from emails and text messages to him beginning with how lucky me his wife is to have a man like him, then to how he would make her feel complete, then to oh how jealous she is that he is going to go make love to me now. etc etc. It got pretty bad.

 

Basically she wanted my husband and was making a huge effort to accomplish that. He was hiding many of her mesages until someone else brought it to my attention. I have forgiven my husband. He's family,he's the ather of my kids. I personally do not feel i need a cancer such as that in my life or in my family's life. She is not a friend. A friend does not do that to a friend.

 

I will never forgive her and allow her back into my life.

Would you?

 

you say you will never forgive her but have forgiven your husband? do you see what you are saying?? you say a friend is not supposed to do that! I would think if he is your husband he is not either. I would hold him more accountable than the friend. he took an oath before family,friends and God. he is supposed to be with you and you only not to shop around and sleep with friends.they are both guilty!!! if you can forgive one then you need to forgive the other. holding in hate can eat at you and will soon lead to distruction. I did not say forget..... I said forgive and just let it be.

[NoIDidn't]

I don't know how this got to be all about NF's H, since she was asking if she should forgive her FF. What her H is or isn't doing really wasn't asked about. But I did like the dialog between FN and LJ. LJ, you are right on as far as the feelings are concerned. When I grow up, can I be like you?

[noforgiveness]

I don't know how this got to be all about NF's H' date=' since she was asking if she should forgive her FF. What her H is or isn't doing really wasn't asked about. But I did like the dialog between FN and LJ. LJ, you are right on as far as the feelings are concerned. When I grow up, can I be like you?[/quote']

 

 

It became about my husband because all the OW's tried to put doubts in my head about my husband. Their lives revolve around lies and betrayal and sneaking around with MM so that's their reality and what all MM do.

 

I am not naive. I have been married to this man for 18 years. I know him well. He comes home to me every night and I look in his eyes and we talk. Our conversations do not revolve around email and text and a few stolen moments. They are real and they are daily and this man is doing everything he can for me right now.

 

A lie detector test??? You're kidding right? If i am ever to the point i feel i need a lie detector test for my husband I will end the relationship. This is life not some trashy jerry springer show.

 

I love my husband and know for a fact he feels the same about me. I trust him but that does not mean i will walk around with bliners on.

 

Thanks everyone who truly tried to help and answer this question.

[Ladyjane14]

When I grow up' date=' can I be like you?[/quote']

 

Only if you want to help me eat the big, gluey, bowl of oatmeal I'm horking down for the sake of my cholesterol.

 

Not all of my other choices have worked out so nicely. Like my choice to begin most mornings with eggs and toast...

 

 

You're right though, we did get a little off topic. Although, I'm thinking that when NF and her husband become more secure in their recovery, this whole question of forgiveness for the FF will probably dissipate on it's own. She won't be important enough to them to bother holding a grudge about.

 

Maybe the key here is actually how secure she's feeling in the recovery process, and if there's a deficit there.

[Chapter2]

uh....okay

 

It became about my husband because all the OW's tried to put doubts in my head about my husband. Their lives revolve around lies and betrayal and sneaking around with MM so that's their reality and what all MM do.

 

I am not naive. I have been married to this man for 18 years. I know him well. He comes home to me every night and I look in his eyes and we talk. Our conversations do not revolve around email and text and a few stolen moments. They are real and they are daily and this man is doing everything he can for me right now.

 

A lie detector test??? You're kidding right? If i am ever to the point i feel i need a lie detector test for my husband I will end the relationship. This is life not some trashy jerry springer show.

 

I love my husband and know for a fact he feels the same about me. I trust him but that does not mean i will walk around with bliners on.

 

Thanks everyone who truly tried to help and answer this question.

[Ladyjane14]

I am not naive. I have been married to this man for 18 years. I know him well. He comes home to me every night and I look in his eyes and we talk. Our conversations do not revolve around email and text and a few stolen moments. They are real and they are daily and this man is doing everything he can for me right now.....

 

 

I love my husband and know for a fact he feels the same about me. I trust him but that does not mean i will walk around with bliners on....

 

Why is the FF still taking up so much of your brain-space, NF???

 

If things are going well for you and your husband in recovery... why do you feel that the question of forgiveness is on your mind so much?

 

Do you think maybe she represents a void in your life where the friendship used to be? And if so, what are your plans for fulfillment on that?

[NoIDidn't]

Why is the FF still taking up so much of your brain-space, NF???

 

If things are going well for you and your husband in recovery... why do you feel that the question of forgiveness is on your mind so much?

 

Do you think maybe she represents a void in your life where the friendship used to be? And if so, what are your plans for fulfillment on that?

 

I am not NF but wanted to answer these questions.

 

I have not had a close friend try to *take* my H, but I have had all kinds of other things happen (as I am a very generous person IRL).

 

I felt bad for doing what I had to do for myself. I felt like I owed them something better than what I was giving them by no longer associating with them. But as time went on, I don't feel that way anymore. And I have forgiven them. But I refuse to associate with them. I will even speak to them when we are at the same engagements on the same panels, but they are no longer my friends.

 

And they know it. I comes back to me that they regret what they did to me. I believe the same will happen for NF. Right now she is taking up time that she would have anyway during your friendship. It takes a while to let go of a friend, even if the offense happened in an instant.

[noforgiveness]

Why is the FF still taking up so much of your brain-space, NF???

 

If things are going well for you and your husband in recovery... why do you feel that the question of forgiveness is on your mind so much?

 

Do you think maybe she represents a void in your life where the friendship used to be? And if so, what are your plans for fulfillment on that?

 

Why?? she was in my life for almost as long as my husband. She was close to my children. Then she stabbed me in the back. That is painful. She lives close by. It is not someone who can just disappear unless we move which my husband is asking me to do. I won't do that to my kids. They love their home. They love their friends.

 

I asked about forgiveness to prove a point to myself. THE OW's seem to think i should forgive and have made sarcastic remarks about my not forgiving. I think they are wrong and i see i am right. That no one would allow this woman back into their circle of friends. Many would forgive for themselves but not for her.

 

Of course there is a void from that friendship but i have many other friends who will fill that void. I'm not that cold of a person to just shut off overnight and stop thinking about a former bestfriend who is going through a very difficult time herself. I have some compassion for her and her neddiness but no forgiveness.

[NoIDidn't]

Only if you want to help me eat the big, gluey, bowl of oatmeal I'm horking down for the sake of my cholesterol.

 

Not all of my other choices have worked out so nicely. Like my choice to begin most mornings with eggs and toast...

 

You too!! (the oatmeal thing - but I do it for the fiber not my cholesterol LOL)

 

I just love the way that you take what I *feel* and put it into words that are neither offensive or unintelligible. I wish I had that ability, but I am learning from a master. Thx!