No light at the end of the tunnel

[boomerang]

Hello all- I'm writing again about a guy I've known since March. We're from the same country, in our early thirties, we've lived all over the world. The last 6-7 weeks we've seen eachother a few times, usually in a group, had one or two dates (we've been physical few times, haven't "slept together"). He's been holding me at an arm's length- when he gets closer he'll then make a step back.

 

The mystery was solved. Tuesday he sat down with me, he started talking about serious relationships and marriage "done that and I'm not going to do it again". He was married for 4 yrs (She moved to the US for him, she had no money no friends), they separated in January and she moved back to her country. Last week she submitted the papers for the divorce. He was talking about the emotional cost of it all. He used to be able to take a risk in relationships, but now he's not going to let it happen again, he won't have a serious relationship again until he's settled in one country.

 

So what is the question. I guess he made things very clear to me. The problem is my feelings. I know what everyone is gonna say, move on. How do I deal with that feeling that we are meant for each other, that I greatly appreciate him as a person and I enjoy every minute I spend with him. That in my 33 years I have never met anyone who is so compatible, faithful, warm and affectionate like him. What is the chance I'll meet anyone like him again, that I can be so physically attracted to and feel like my soulmate. I don't want to lose him in other words. I don't want to scare him away either. It would make me very unhappy to see him with another woman. Do I just play along the casual relationship thing? Please help!

[quankanne]

this scenerio sounds SO familiar ... wait! That was my husband playing the role of "been married, been hurt, ain't never gonna do it again." Ten years later, I'm happy to report that love, not his hurt pride, won.

 

If your guy trusts you as a friend, then you've got a very good basis for something deeper, he just needs a little time to get accustomed to the idea of love being something that doesn't have to hurt. So, be patient. From your description, he sounds like a good man, just gun-shy. It might take awhile, and you might go through some rough patches as he tries to adjust to the idea that you aren't going to do him "wrong" the way his ex did, but believe me, it's well worth the effort, especially if you know that this is the guy you can trust to spend your life with.

 

Remember, slow and steady (and calm) wins the race. So be the friend that he loves who becomes the woman that he wants to spend the rest of his life with.

 

Good luck!

[boomerang]

your sweet words made me calm down a bit. I hope you are right, that there's some hope. This guy has had mostly long term relationships in his life. Back home he was dating a 'wonderful woman' for 3 yrs, he left her to go to Hong Kong to study. He regrets it to this day. Then in HK he meets his now ex. A year later he leaves her to come to the US. Due to some visa problems has to go back to HK, rethinks the whole relationship, fears he's making the same mistake again, marries her. They try to make things work but there's too much trouble and strife. They separate last January. I met him in March.

 

The problem is maybe I'm just history repeated to him. He says this is his last year in grad school. He will probably move somewhere else after that, HK or back home or...Three weeks ago he was sort of trying to figure out my future plans. Good sign (?) but given that there's only one year to go most likely, and that things move VERY slowly between us....I may run out of time!

[boomerang]

I'm his rebound girl. He has a lot of anger and hurt that may not go away for months or years. We don't really have a 'relationship', he's made sure of that. He calls once a week and that's the only consistent thing about him. He's more like a friend with benefits. Apart from one 'real date', even when he calls me to get together there are always other people joining us earlier in the evening, then they go, then most of the activity happens after hours!

 

I still think he's a great guy. But it's bad timing. He has a lot of anger, and I guess he warned me he isn't looking for anything serious because he doesn't mean to hurt me.When he told me that, he was just describing what he's going through. He wasn't discussing 'us'. So there is no easy way for me to reply that I like him a lot, and if he ever wants anything more serious and I am around... Maybe just show it with my actions? Be a friend, listen, support him if I can, but with no benefits included. That way I can maybe stay in his life without getting myself hurt-that is, until he finds someone else

 

Please tell me what you think!

[midori]

It's really tough when you meet someone whom you feel is perfect for you, but who isn't operating with the same set of expectations/hopes/goals that you have. Which actually means that they aren't perfect for you ... but that's beside the point.

 

I've been there. I tried to no end to make it work. But in the end I had to admit defeat. I'm an incurable optimist, it took a long time and massive bruising to my heart before I got it. I have learned a few things:

 

1. If someone says they don't want a relationship, they don't want a relationship, and nothing YOU do will change their minds.

 

2. If they do change their minds, it will be because of something within themselves. Undertaking to change someone, even if it's just by being there for them, even if it's with the best of intentions, is a losing proposition.

 

3. People with patterns of indecision & unreliability in their relationships do not change overnight. It takes a lot of growing, and that takes a lot of time.

 

4. When someone warns you off with messages like, "I'm not looking for a relationship," but then sticks around, what they are really saying is, "I'm not going to get into a committed relationship with you, and I've warned you, so if you choose to get involved with me you do so knowing that I have no obligation to you, and you will never be able to blame me if you get hurt."

 

Based on everything you've mentioned, it definitely sounds like this guy is nowhere near being ready for any kind of meaningful romantic relationship. Seriously, it might well be years before he'll be ready -- if ever. In the meantime of course he'll get involved with various women. Perhaps one of them will be you. Would you like that? Or, would you like to be his "friend" (a friend with a secret agenda for more than friendship), and watch him go through his growing pains, be there for him when he's caught up with another woman and confused about what to do? Neither prospect sounds very promising.

 

Sometimes the best thing one can do is just admit the truth, "this guy isn't ready for someone like me, and I can't handle the torture of being near him but not being with him." Each situation is different of course, and who knows what lies down the road for each of you. But what seems to lie around the corner, if you pursue a connection of any kind with this confused and potentially destructive man, is a lot of hurt and confusion for yourself. How will that help either of you?

 

I had to sever all ties with the man I thought I was meant to be with. Should our paths ever cross again, even if he has grown the way he'll need to in order to have a real relationship with anyone, there is too much pain between us to ever reconnect. I tried my best to be patient, understanding, always there for him. I succeeded in those things in fact, but they weren't enough. See point #2 above. I was the living embodiment of patience & understanding, but the change needed to come from within my ex boyfriend, it wasn't something I could bestow upon him by being there for him. That fundamental change has yet to occur in him, and it may well never happen. I wish I'd realized it a lot sooner than I did. I wish I hadn't stuck it out and allowed him to hurt me time and again. If I had cut things off sooner, maybe there wouldn't be so much pain between us. But now there's nothing between us, and there never will be again.

 

I guess my advice would be to keep this guy at arm's length, for your own sake. Since you don't have a bad history with him, there's no need to exorcise him entirely from your life. But given what you know of him you surely must see that any kind of regular involvement with him will currently only lead to disappointment, or worse.

[quankanne]

You've seen both sides of the coin in our postings, but you're the only one able to discern whether this guy has got the right "stuff" under his anger and disappointment for you to continue pursuing a relationship with him. Midori has a very valid point when she says that the change must come from inside your guy -- he (like any of us with baggage) has a lot of demons to work through. Is what you feel strong enough to sustain the both of you through this? More importantly, are you strong enough to walk away if and when you realize that what he offers isn't what you deserve in life?

 

Being cautiously optimistic is good -- you talk about being his friend, but not expecting anything more. Sometimes that's enough; sometimes you've got to encourage them to move beyond their pain; sometimes you just cut your losses. Again, you're the only one who can decide what works best in your relationship with him.

 

Last but not least, and I'm not trying to promote false hope here or be cloyingly romantic ... but ... you never know what's in someone's heart, and sometimes in believing so strongly in something like love, you give a person something to believe in, too.

 

Good luck in your decision, and keep us posted.

 

quank

[questionaire]

boomerang

 

if i were you, i will make my decision after his divorce. WHY?

 

1- if you are with him right now , other peole may think that you are the one cause this divorce

 

2- give your boyfriend extra months to handle his divorce and emotion because you want to make sure that HE REALLY WANTS TO BE WITH YOU not because of other reasons.

 

A few folks want to jump in a new relationship after divorce . It is not because they want to have a new relationship and forget bad one. You understand what i'm saying.

 

i'm not sure if your boyfriend has children with his EX or not.

 

You have a lot of things to think about it. You are 33 and want to have a relationship. I don't blame you. Nobody wants to be lonely

 

GOOD LUCK

[boomerang]

I've seen a few postings of yours and you sound like someone with a lot of wisdom...and the ability to express it.

 

He seems like someone who plunges into relationships head first. He tried to make his marriage work, the cost was too hight, now he's "not going to take that risk".I don't blame him. Sometimes I do feel that he needs some (more) emotional support from me. I, from my side, need some more encouragement from him before I open up, for fear of getting hurt. We kind of mirror each other some times (he holds off, I hold off) which, as you say, is not going to be enough to move forward.

 

"Sometimes you've got to encourage them to move beyond their pain" you say. That's what I want to do, but how? I want to be brave, at the same time not scare him off. How do I help him? He's definitely in some pain and the words he uses to describe man-woman relationships show he sees women as "the opposite side". How do I show him "I'm with you, not against you?" Midori, Quankanne, everyone, thank you so much for your thoughts!

[Guest]

How can you feel like he is your soulmate...faithful etc., if he's kept you at arms length? There are TONS of people out there that we can be compatible with. And if you are the one he lets go, he'll realize it in time, and will come back to you....you won't have to even keep contact with him. Otherwise, one day, 3 months from now or 5 years, you'll meet someone who feels all of those things, and is actually able to return the feelings. My thinking is...a soulmate isn't a soulmate if you have to work too hard to convince them that they are. hehe

[midori]

The above post says it all, if you have to work hard to convince someone that you're their soulmate ... then they probably aren't yours!

 

Whatever you decide, pursue it with conviction. If you're going to try to make it work with this guy then be sure that you can really open yourself up to him. If he's defensive and untrusting I doubt you'll ever be able to break through to him if you've got your own defenses up. It's an enormous gamble because you'd have to really make yourself vulnerable to being hurt. Maybe that ought to be your litmus test: do you believe in this strongly enough that you are willing to put your heart on the line, really on the line, without the guarantee that you'll get what you want?

[quankanne]

"The above post says it all, if you have to work hard to convince someone that you're their soulmate ... then they probably aren't yours!"

 

this is so true, but then again, sometimes all it takes is the gumption to take that risk, giving the non-believer an opportunity to reconsider what he/she feels, not just locking their hearts away. Like a good editorial -- you might not necessarily agree with the writer's position, but if he presents his side in a convincing enough manner, you're going to concede that his is a plausible point of view even if it's not your own.

 

Love is like that -- your heart gets trounced on because of something someone has said or done, and you just want to hide it away, but you're still noticing "love gone right" that's being modeled all around you.

 

Taking chances on love is a lot like finding a stray gift under the Christmas tree. Your name is on it, but you don't recognize the handwriting and there's no one listed next to "from:" ... when you open it up, you're hesitant about what you'll find, but there's a 50 percent chance that it's going to be a pretty good gift.

 

Boomerang, you ask how you can model the love you've got to offer your guy -- just be yourself. If he scoffs at love, let him ... then show him by your actions. Be his strength, round him up when he heads off on a tangent and then point him in the right direction. Just trust in your feelings for him and you'll know what to do when the time comes.

 

Again, there are no 100 percent guarantees -- only death and taxes are for certain in this life -- but if he believes as strongly as he does in marriage (even if his didn't work out), then there's hope that when he's ready, he's going to give it another shot.

[boomerang]

I agree with you guys- If you have to work too hard to lift a relationship off the ground, maybe it's not meant to go too far.. But there's another issue- timing.I can't blame him for not wanting to jump into a new relationship, six months after his separation, with divorce still pending, that will end a four-year long marriage he work hard for.

 

He called me last night to see whether I would go to a community get-together that happens every Tuesday, very close to where he lives. He told me he wouldn't go for anyone else! He's probably working this weekend, so I won't see him for a while if I don't see him tonight. I'm worried that he has found a good way to keep seeing me without having to make the effort to ask me out.

 

So what do I do? Play along? Or leave him alone for a while, see if he misses me? He's not letting me go, one way or another he'll make plans to see me. When we talk on the phone he speaks with warmth, he talks to me like I am a special friend.

 

Thanks guys!

[quankanne]

I dunno -- if he's telling you that he wants to take you out to some event that he wouldn't normally go to, I'd say that's an encouraging sign. If you're not able to go with him or don't want to, just explain in a simple non-threatening way that you're not able to. Just don't cross over the line and start mind playing games with him to test him. I'm thinking that if you're upfront and honest with him, and he sees that you're not out to mess with his heart (or mind), he's going to realize that he can trust you. And that's a very big step for someone who's experiencing a lot of hurt.

[Ally Boo]

Ya know, he's scared right now, and I think that is an encouraging sign too. And let me put this in here....he's used to being in a committed relationship, not playing games, so after he gets over his heartbreak, maybe he'll be ready for more, once he realizes you aren't out to hurt him too. Lots of men go from marriage to another marriage....my ex husband did. And I know when I first started dating after my divorce, I forgot that there were "games" out there, and opened my heart to people who I shouldn't have. So, when he does that, if that's what happens, let him know that he can trust you with it...and see where it goes from there. Although I don't agree with this saying, I know many guys who live by the "Best cure for a divorce (breakup) is a new wife (gf)" I just hope that our divorce changed my ex husband, otherwise that poor girl is in for it, bc I can't see where he had time to work on himself... That's another thing, remember there is always a reason why they broke up. And if she cheated (for example) there is a possibility that he has intimacy issues or something. Although I think many women are evil, sometimes it isn't the woman's fault!

[boomerang]

I guess I was trying to see if, with time, this will progress into anything more "meaningfull". A month later is not a lot of time for such a big change, but...

 

Since I last wrote he has become very affectionate, he doesn't seem to be holding back; we talk once a week for along time. He pretty much comes to my town to see me once a week. He has made it clear in many ways that he doesn't want any care, any hussle, any hard work from his relationships (with women). I can understand that, the breakup was emotionally and physically draining.But I haven't come into terms with the two following things:

 

-we may be in bed together and he'll ask me about this and that characteristic of his and whether he should change it b/c some women don't like it. He's not the kind of guy that turns his head when he sees a chick passing by, but he's obviously showing that the door is wide open and he feels unattached.

 

-He won't be inconvenienced in any way in order to help me. Whereas any other friend would've said "I'll help you with that"! he just won't say it. He had a futon for sale. I said I'd buy it. Two days later he said he sold it, saying "it would've taken some effort to put it in the truck, anyways. Buy a new one"!!!!

 

Is love possible under these conditions?

Time to get out...????

[Ally Boo]

OMG you SOOOOOOO need to get out. He's telling you that he isn't intrested, and I guess he's just wanting to see how long you'll be dumb enough to let him do this to you. ACK get away!!

[midori]

... and close the door firmly behind you.

 

Seriously, as the above poster observes, this guy does not have deep feelings for you, and is probably in fact just using you as a convenient distraction. It's nice to know that you've got someone to sleep with once a week so that that part of your life is taken care of for the time being with a minimum of effort. Sorry, ouch, that's harsh to say (and harsher to hear I'm sure, but I'm also sure you've figured this out already).

 

You are most definitely in a rebound relationship. And this guy doesn't even have the courtesy to shield you from that fact. I think I said in an earlier post that when someone says they don't want a relationship but stick around anyway, they have in effect issued a disclaimer absolving them of all responsibility for what ensues. You take them on at your own risk. Believe me, I've experienced it myself and seen it happen repeatedly with others.

 

Besides the immediate companionship you get from him when he's there (sex, flirtation, chit-chat), what are you getting? Is it what you want? Doesn't sound like it, and THAT is the only reason you need to end this. Don't worry about what's in his heart, don't worry about whether he just needs some time. You're not getting what you ultimately want out of the relationship, and not only is he failing you there, he has neatly worked things out so that he's not responsible for your needs not being met.

 

I'd say to him, "you know, this has been great, but it's just not enough for me. It's not what I really want from a relationship, so I'm ending it." Stand by that decision, which rests solely on the fact that the relationship is inadequate for you -- so it doesn't matter what he says. Even if he promises to do better, don't go back there. If this guy really is capable of change, he'll demonstrate it by moving heaven and earth to get you back. He'll put real, sustained effort into it, and his attitude change will be unmistakable. You won't have to guess at all. Hate to say it but I very much doubt it's going to happen.

 

I know that there are some lucky people out there who have had love blossom where it seemed unlikely or even impossible. Sure, it can happen, but not when the person in question is indifferent, disrespectful, and self-absorbed. And that's what it sounds like this guy is. Doesn't mean that he's always that way, even with you. But his overall behavior is not good, so it would be quite foolish to hang in there hoping that sooner or later he'll see the light and recognize what a good thing he has with you. You're sacrificing current happiness for the possibility of a good outcome that is in no way guaranteed.

[quankanne]

to say, but I think Midori's got the guy's number down when she says this is a rebound situation, esp. in light of your update. maybe he's still running scared, even as he tries to get back into mindset of being dating material. As good as you've been to him, he doesn't see you that way.

 

you've got two choices -- to continue fishing for the affection and love you want from this guy, or to cut bait. I dunno, something about the futon incident bugs me. A friend would have given his friend first dibs on something he's giving away or selling (at least that's what I'd do, give them first refusal). What he did definitely illustrates that he doesn't hold you in the same regard that you do him, at least in my way of thinking.

 

you deserve a man who knows how to respond to your offer of love and friendship with more respect and dignity than this guy is showing you. Just because life pooped on him doesn't give him carte blanche to poop on someone who's being good to him!

[boomerang]

The hard part for me is that I don't necessarily want something I can call "relationship" or "boyfriend". I want him. I miss him. That's why I'm still hanging in there

 

He does tend to my needs partly, as long as it doesn't inconvenience him. E.g, last week was really hard for me, he acknowledged that with empathy, held me in his arms and kissed me lightly for quite a while, he had brought massage oil with him to sooth away my worries...like a b/f would... that's when it gets confusing...and hard to break away from!

 

He called two days ago. I mentioned the futon thing in passing and he sounded bummed, he hadn't realized I was serious about it, he thought I was just looking around at that stage, whereas the other guy, who is from the same community, came with the money and took it. I guess it shows I'm one of the many people in his mind, not special. He respected me enough to be honest and upfront that he's not looking for a relationship- men from our part of the world are legendarily duplicitous! But you're right Midori, his overall behaviour is not dependable, partly because he's too 'lighthearted' about everything. My gut feeling is that he wouldn't consciously do something to hurt me, just from the little things he does and from his interactions with others. But...he does hurt me....and it's my fault, for wanting something he can't give me!

 

I greatly appreciate your time and kind thoughts!

[midori]

Hi Boomerang,

 

It sounds like you'll work this out sooner or later, but I'm still recovering, after more than a year, from the emotional blows dealt to me by a guy who was incapable of being responsible for his own actions, feelings, etc. You mentioned this guy's kindness and empathy, bringing massage oil, etc. Sure, that's nice, but note two things: 1. it was done at his convenience, not yours, and 2. he was (I assume) not the cause of your bad week. In other words, he wasn't undertaking to massage away hurt that he inflicted, he was tending to pain caused by others. Which is a nice thing to do, and it makes the person doing it feel nice. Owning up to the pain you yourself caused is a very different thing, much more difficult, takes much more courage and integrity. What if you were really down on a weekend that he'd made other plans -- would you have received a massage? I can't answer that for you, but if you think the answer is no then I think you're wasting your time.

 

I know, believe me I know, that sometimes it's better to have a far-less-than-perfect connection to someone than to be alone entirely. But there's usually a price to pay, especially the longer you remain in the situation. For one thing you run the risk, despite intentions to the contrary, of developing strong feelings for the guy. Secondly, you are not meeting other people, guys who could actually be more fulfilling, because you're letting this guy take up your time and your availability.

 

Just more food for thought. I'm still trying to slog through the pain of a break-up with a callous man. I hate to see others in similar situations ... because I can't help but think that they're all too likely to turn out the same way sooner or later.

 

Good luck.