BW's&BH's why did you stay?

[herenow]

This could have been an informative thread, but it got changed into a debate over self-esteem.

 

I have an issue with the esteem thing. The issue that I have with the self-esteem question is because it seems glaringly obvious that some OW think they apparently are the better catch if this guy is willing to cheat with them. Truth is more like you were the first in a long line of "no, you are married" to say "maybe" or "yes". That is not to be insulting, it takes most MM a long line before they find someone willing to overlook the whole M status.

 

Be honest with yourself at least. It IS a huge ego stroke to be the OW, that someone is risking their livelyhood and lifestyle to be with you. That they are telling you all of these wonderful things about you and terrible things about their W. Be honest. I was flattered when my Ex told me how much better I was at all things related to what he liked, than his GF was. Truth is, I look back on that time with shame that I needed that to feel good about myself.

 

And this whole thing about its not cheating because YOU know about it. Bulls*ht!!! It is cheating. He might not be cheating on you, but he sure as h*ll is cheating on his W and family. If his W hasn't agreed to an 'open' relationship, he's cheating. Dressing up a duck and calling it a model doesn't change what it is. Its still a duck.

 

I'm not sure if this addresses this post, but when I asked my H why her? His answer was because she would. The fact is that the affair happened because he was looking for something that was missing inside himself and she was willing to provide it. Many people say that we should hold the married person responsible for the affair and not the OW or OM. I can agree to that if the OW or OM can agree that the affair is not about them and only about the married person. It does go both ways. In my case, the OW could have been anyone, as long as they were wiling to give my H what he wanted. It had nothing to do with what she had or what I didn't have. It took me months to understand that. It was really all about him.

[frannie]

I totally agree with the previous 2 posts!! That is why I stayed... I believe that the love was worth saving. Even when the A made my H a person that I didn't recognize at that time, after he came clean, I slowly began to recognize the man I married and love. The trust is slowly rebuilding through his actions that he greatly regrets his mistakes. And the forgiveness will come someday... not anytime soon but we are on great terms.

 

I can see how that would work.

 

If I'd been as guilty as the other person of not paying attention to a relationship, and the other person went and got their needs (that I hadn't been paying attention to) met by someone else, somehow... and we had children and a home and so on together, yes... I can SEE how it happens. Rekindling, re-connection, re-making. Affairs are said, often, to be the re-birth of a marriage.

 

But the point is, for me personally, I wouldn't have got into that situation. Because I can't see the point in being with someone and not being really close to them. That's just me. And if, after all the effort to connect, communicate, listen, understand, talk about needs, and meet them, and be there for someone... if they then went off and messed around on me... well, they'd just be a lower than low piece of nothing and not worth my time.

 

The thing is, not all marriages are the same, not all affairs happen for the same reasons... we're all different people and you just cannot generalise on these things.

[NoIDidn't]

I'm not sure if this addresses this post, but when I asked my H why her? His answer was because she would. The fact is that the affair happened because he was looking for something that was missing inside himself and she was willing to provide it. Many people say that we should hold the married person responsible for the affair and not the OW or OM. I can agree to that if the OW or OM can agree that the affair is not about them and only about the married person. It does go both ways. In my case, the OW could have been anyone, as long as they were wiling to give my H what he wanted. It had nothing to do with what she had or what I didn't have. It took me months to understand that. It was really all about him.

 

herenow,

 

That's my point. Accusing a betrayed of having low self-esteem is an attempt to make the affair about them. But its not about the betrayed or the other. Its about the MP. How the OP makes the MP feel.

 

We as the Ws that took them back are looked down on when in reality we are just believing that our WH are really bigger than their mistakes. We are believing in what drew us to them initiall, unless of course, we decide we don't want him back. That is our decision to make. Just like they chose to cheat on us, we chose to take them back.

 

I honestly don't think that any answer we could give is ever really going to put the question to bed. But I do find it funny that the person that wanted him and helped him cheat, now wants to know why I wanted him back. Pot, kettle, anyone?

[frannie]

So, IF MM decides to leave his wife at some point in the future for you, you would be happy to continue to have an "open relationship" with him, just like you do now?

 

I don't have an open relationship with him. I don't want one, and neither does he.

 

But since you asked, I wouldn't be against us involving another person in our sex life. It can be fun. But that would have to be on the basis of us both agreeing to the person involved. And it's probably something we would think about years down the line when we have our own relationship set on a more solid foundation. Incidentally, it's something I'm slightly keener on than he is, but I can live without it.

 

I merely put 'open relationships' out there as a point: being with two women is not 'cheating' on anyone. It's the fact someone doesn't KNOW (i.e. it's not by consent) that 'cheating' occurs. And no, that's not nice, and it's not something I would put up with AT ALL.

[NoIDidn't]

The thing is, not all marriages are the same, not all affairs happen for the same reasons... we're all different people and you just cannot generalise on these things.

 

Who's generalizing? We were asked about ourselves in particular. Not about someone else.

 

And it is so easy to say what you said about it not getting that way. I once said the same thing, and here I am. Or there I was, I should say. Just like the OW/OM always say "never say you won't find yourself in this position 'cause you never know", know that you don't know what life will throw you to place you in the situation you swear you will not ever be in.

[frannie]

This could have been an informative thread, but it got changed into a debate over self-esteem.

 

I have an issue with the esteem thing. The issue that I have with the self-esteem question is because it seems glaringly obvious that some OW think they apparently are the better catch if this guy is willing to cheat with them. Truth is more like you were the first in a long line of "no, you are married" to say "maybe" or "yes". That is not to be insulting, it takes most MM a long line before they find someone willing to overlook the whole M status.

 

Be honest with yourself at least. It IS a huge ego stroke to be the OW, that someone is risking their livelyhood and lifestyle to be with you. That they are telling you all of these wonderful things about you and terrible things about their W. Be honest. I was flattered when my Ex told me how much better I was at all things related to what he liked, than his GF was. Truth is, I look back on that time with shame that I needed that to feel good about myself.

 

Well I've never seen it as a competition between me and his W. I know a few BSs have said that one of the reasons they didn't just kick him out was that they wanted to 'win' over the OW... but ... that's just not something that would matter to me.

 

Maybe I'm giving them a lot of credit they're not due but I think that men are capable of deciding for themselves who they want to be with and why, and it's not about who has the best whatever. The day I start comparing myself to another woman will be a sad day indeed.

 

And for the record, my MM has never said one 'terrible' thing about his W. Quite the opposite. Relationships aren't about who is better than who, but how people RELATE..? Hence the name. It's not a competition.

 

Er, and I don't need my ego stroked either. I just love him, that's all.

 

"And this whole thing about its not cheating because YOU know about it. Bulls*ht!!! It is cheating. He might not be cheating on you, but he sure as h*ll is cheating on his W and family. If his W hasn't agreed to an 'open' relationship, he's cheating. Dressing up a duck and calling it a model doesn't change what it is. Its still a duck."

 

I didn't say there was no cheating happening. I said it's his WIFE that is being cheated on. Not me. If a BS decides she can live with a man who cheated on HER that's her choice. I wouldn't do it with someone who cheated on ME.

[herenow]

herenow,

 

That's my point. Accusing a betrayed of having low self-esteem is an attempt to make the affair about them. But its not about the betrayed or the other. Its about the MP. How the OP makes the MP feel.

 

We as the Ws that took them back are looked down on when in reality we are just believing that our WH are really bigger than their mistakes. We are believing in what drew us to them initiall, unless of course, we decide we don't want him back. That is our decision to make. Just like they chose to cheat on us, we chose to take them back.

 

I honestly don't think that any answer we could give is ever really going to put the question to bed. But I do find it funny that the person that wanted him and helped him cheat, now wants to know why I wanted him back. Pot, kettle, anyone?

 

I think that's just human nature. No one enjoys feeling the hurt of betrayal and I think that some OW feel that a MM fixing his marriage is a form of betrayal to them. I have a hard time getting my head around that one, but I'm not in that position, so I don't know how it feels.

 

When I see how people like BeenThereDoneThat have evolved in just the short time I've been posting here, it gives me hope that eventually everyone owns their mistakes and learns from those mistakes. Some of us are there and some are not ready to let go. I'm learning daily and hopefully will be able to let go in the near future.

[frannie]

Who's generalizing? We were asked about ourselves in particular. Not about someone else.

 

And it is so easy to say what you said about it not getting that way. I once said the same thing, and here I am. Or there I was, I should say. Just like the OW/OM always say "never say you won't find yourself in this position 'cause you never know", know that you don't know what life will throw you to place you in the situation you swear you will not ever be in.

 

Well, you're right... one day maybe way down the line I won't really care about being emotionally and physically close to the person I'm supposed to be involved with.

 

And when/if that time ever came about, I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if, having gone cold on the relationship... he drifted off and found someone else.

 

I'm talking about me now, and I can't really see that I'll change. If a relationship isn't working for me, I try and try and try. And if it still isn't working, I end it.

[frannie]

I think that's just human nature. No one enjoys feeling the hurt of betrayal and I think that some OW feel that a MM fixing his marriage is a form of betrayal to them. I have a hard time getting my head around that one, but I'm not in that position, so I don't know how it feels.

 

If MM said to an OW that he was leaving, that she was the one, etc. etc. and then decides, post-D-day or whatever, to work on the marriage, then that is a betrayal. Whether or not words were said in church or where they were said, something was said and a promise given, and then it was gone back on. That is the meaning of a betrayal.

 

Of course no one is going to be TOO surprised that a man who cheated on his wife did the same to another woman... but that doesn't make it NO betrayal to the OW. He just managed to do the same to two women, that's all.

[herenow]

OK, so I just went back and read the stuff about the BW staying because of self esteem and I have to say that I completely disagree with this theory. In my opinion people with low self esteem feel that they are undeserving. I think they would be more likely to give up on the marriage feeling like the OW was better than them.

 

I do see how a person that has been married for a long time could be afraid of being alone, but that's not a self esteem problem, that's a fear.

 

Now if a BW knows that her husband is cheating and just lives with it, that could be self esteem. But the BW's who confront the affair head on and put forth an honest effort to make the marriage work do not have self esteem issues. They are stong women trying to hold on to something that they feel is worth saving. IMO.

[herenow]

If MM said to an OW that he was leaving, that she was the one, etc. etc. and then decides, post-D-day or whatever, to work on the marriage, then that is a betrayal. Whether or not words were said in church or where they were said, something was said and a promise given, and then it was gone back on. That is the meaning of a betrayal.

 

Yes, I can see how this would be a betrayal to the OW. So you agree with what I said then?

[Guest]

Here's my take:

 

1. Speaking of "history", it has to be a history of LOVE. You can have a roommate or housekeeper for 30 years and share more "history" with her than with others, but how would that add to your happiness or fullfillment of life? And what does it contribute to your happiness by sharing grocery shopping, dinner table, 20 annual vacations to the most wonderful places in the world, if there's no mutual love and admiration? You may be good friends at best.

 

2. I agree that low self-esteem and fear of being alone is the reason for SOME women to stay with their Hs. Some people (some may be BSs, I don't know) here didn't like such opinion, as if it implies that THEY have low self-esteem. They should note that it was not a generalization. No one said ALL BS's who stayed in marriage had low self-esteem. But it is true that many BS's try to keep the M no matter what, out of fear of being alone (especially those BS's who have little hope remarrying someone else). These BSs are practically making the marriage a one-sided contract.

 

Repeat: SOME BS's, not all.

 

3. Two people make a marriage. Marriage is not a charity institution. Both parties are entitled the right to be happy. I say to the one that tries everything to prevent a dead marriage from dissolved for selfish reasons (financial, loneliness and so forth): your spouse is also a human being just like you, and his(her) loneliness may be worse than the loneliness you will endure.

 

Let me be clear: situations vary, my point is aimed at those who have found true love outside an already-dead marriage. I despise the others who are involved in extramarital affaires lightly.

[GirlFromOz]

Kymberann, I am sooooo sorry - I was/am still keen to hear responses to your original question as it is a good one. For this reason, I tried really hard not to post again on the new topic in the thread but I just had too as I am also really keen to hear Frannie's point of view. Sorry.

I don't have an open relationship with him. I don't want one, and neither does he. (quote)

I don't understand. If he is not cheating on you by also being with his wife & he is not in an open relationship with you by being with his wife, then what do you call it?

 

Two years is a long time to wait for someone to leave their wife, don't you think? Especially when they are apparently so miserable at home.

 

I understand that you are saying that you would never stay with anyone who cheated on you. I admire this (& I used to think this too) and I am not knocking you for this - I just genuinely can't reconcile this with what the MM is doing to you now. It seems hypocritical to me.

 

Maybe I'

m

giving them a lot of credit they're not due

but I think that men are capable of deciding for themselves who they want to be with and why,

Sure they are, and IMHO, if the MM stays with his wife for more than a few months after starting his affair(s), then he has made that decision. He has chosen the wife.

 

Well, you're right... one day maybe way down the line I won't really care about being emotionally and physically close to the person I'

m

supposed to be involved with.

I don't think that any of the BS's who have responded to this thread have said that they aren't emotionally & physically close to their WH. In fact, it is the opposite - nearly every one of us have said that we love them & have a good relationship overall with them. One of the things that still gives me a laugh to this day, is the complete rubbish that came out of the OW's mouth once I found out about the A. It had all been fed to her by WH (presumably to keep her happy & make her think he would leave me) and included stuff like we never had sex & that I never acknowledged him. I just sent her copies of all the lovey dovey emails & txts that we had sent each other, both before & during the affair & she never mentioned it again.

[kymberann]

Some women are too dependent to leave. You got out because you could afford it. Would you have done so if you have $$$$$ medical bills? were in wheel chair? no job or low income? These are just some common cases when a wife just wants to keep a dead marriage even when she knows all the affairs: they DON'T CARE.

 

I have to reply to this. In my situation I left an abusive and cheating man. In order to do this I left my home, lived in a shelter got on state aid for help and health care for my baby and returned to school and worked doing whatever I needed to to bring in some money. I lived in a small rural town, where most people knew everyone elses business. And they did!

So yes, I did leave when I didn't have strong sinancial supports. I jumped, i wanted change and I wanted my esteem back. That is how I have always been. When push comes to shove I fight for myself!

My baby is now 14 years old, on a side note!

 

 

As for the esteem issue, it varies person to person. When cheating ex came clean, I think it made me stronger to get out and find myself again. Throughout the marriage I was becoming depressed. I was lost and suicidal. My mother even took me by the hand, got me on anti depressants and then to a therapist. One reason I wanted to live was that I did not want to see my baby being cared for by the ex. I knew I had to get better. I did!

[kymberann]

To continue the discussion about esteem. I believe there is an innate resiliency factor that varies from person to person. It also depends on how we have seen significant others respond to their own stressful situations. What works, what doesen't.

I for one have always had high esteem and am social and outgoing. I may fall, but it doesn't take me long to recover. It didn't take me long to work on my set of issues when ex cheated on me. I reframed and just remembered it was his doing and not a reflection of me. I entered into the relationship with high regard, positive, outgoing and due to the nature of the marriage almost lost it.

 

Sucks that we can become so emotionally involved so quick with another but it takes a while to recover doesen't it?

 

 

As for being OW. Again high self esteem in full force. That is one thing that attracted MM to me. He told me so. I was "a breathe of fresh air". and "special". Who doesn't want to hear that? I would have to agree with No I didn't. I was flattered that I was his center of attention. It made the esteem go up even more. And to hear that I was so different than his wife probably brought out the competitive nature in me. " I could win him"...

 

Now looking back, the longer we were together the less and less esteem I could hold on to. I knew it. And now I am building myself up again. It has really opened my eyes as to why we do the things we do, even when we know there is trouble and pain waiting eventually.

[veronese]

When I first found out I let him stay because I was too shell-shocked and heartbroken to function properly and look after the kids.

 

In the ensuing few weeks I decided that 17 years of a pretty good marriage was too important to throw away without at leas trying.

 

The kids had a lot to do with it. I couldn't imagine how they would be able to handle the break up of our family so totally out of the blue when I was on the floor awash with tears.

 

I loved him.

 

He wouldn't go

 

I didn't have the strength to kick him out

 

I didn't know if I really wanted to.

 

His affairs were EAs but were long term so while the absence of a sexual relationship made it easier for me to get over, the fact that they were long term didn't help

 

I'm scared

 

I want to do the right thing firstly for my children, secondly for me, and to be honest it's been bloody hard working out what to do for the best

 

It had nothing to do with low self esteem, even though I admit I adored my husband but wasn't adored equally in return. I think the low self esteem is a feature of the MM having affairs rather than their wives. It's their low self esteem which drives them to seek reassurance and affirmation elsewhere.

 

My husband was given all the attention, compliments, praise and love any man could have, but it still wasn't enough.

 

Why did I let him stay? I'm beginning to seriously wonder!!!!

[whichwayisup]

I do see how a person that has been married for a long time could be afraid of being alone, but that's not a self esteem problem, that's a fear.

I think this is a genuine fear for everybody, and it's not insecurity...It's a fear of abandonment, fear of living alone. Has nothing to do with cheating or not actually. When my father died, my mom had a rough time, she'd never been on her own before marrying my dad.

[Romeo Must Die]

I think the BW's with the esteem issues are the ones who have retalitory affairs. Why would anybody want to return to that place. Once in a lifetime is enough. As for myself, I never want to feel another mans hands on me. No matter what pain my husband put me through, he will never know what its like to be betrayed. I am honorable and that is important to me.

 

[lasan]

I haven't had time to read all of this thread so if I missed something sorry about that.

 

WHen I was married to a cheater, I stayed because I loved him. I really wanted us to work. I also think a part of it was insecurity. I had so little self-esteem when we met. I couldn't even believe he was talking to me the first time we met. I am a completely different person now, and I know better than that non-sense.

 

My best guess is a combination of love/insecurity/and clinging to the familiar.

[whichwayisup]

Bottomline, people don't like drastic changes and most will avoid it as much as possible...

[BenThereDunThat]

I think the BW's with the esteem issues are the ones who have retalitory affairs. Why would anybody want to return to that place. Once in a lifetime is enough. As for myself, I never want to feel another mans hands on me. No matter what pain my husband put me through, he will never know what its like to be betrayed. I am honorable and that is important to me.

 

 

RMD - I just think you're awesome. I always look forward to your posts.

 

If I had been through everything you have, and then to have the OW do all the crap that yours did to you....

 

You ROCK!

[oyster]

My best guess is a combination of love/insecurity/and clinging to the familiar.

 

This actually helps me understand my situation and summarize it pretty well.

[Romeo Must Die]

awww, BTDT

 

As you know, not all of the BW are cannibals ; )

 

[Ripples]

Well I've never seen it as a competition between me and his W. I know a few BSs have said that one of the reasons they didn't just kick him out was that they wanted to 'win' over the OW... but ... that's just not something that would matter to me.

.

 

Err, I think you might be referring to me. I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Initially I did feel that way. I did feel that it was a competition. I also think that to feel that way is perfectly human. You seem to be mocking that emotion? Would that be correct?

 

I didn't make it clear that it was part of the initial reaction to finding out about the affair. Not something that has endured. I've come to terms with the affair now and I can absolutely see your point of view and agree with you that it's not a competition, that there is no comparison.

 

[NoIDidn't]

Err, I think you might be referring to me. I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Initially I did feel that way. I did feel that it was a competition. I also think that to feel that way is perfectly human. You seem to be mocking that emotion? Would that be correct?

 

I didn't make it clear that it was part of the initial reaction to finding out about the affair. Not something that has endured. I've come to terms with the affair now and I can absolutely see your point of view and agree with you that it's not a competition, that there is no comparison.

 

 

It does indeed come off like frannie is mocking perfectly normal emotions. I didn't feel competition with the OW in my case though. I knew she was young and they both had stars in their eyes. The R and M that we built over the years has a mature love that just can't and wasn't going to compete with infatuation. I went about the business of taking the best care that I could of my family as he was still in the "fog" LOL!

 

But I can see where you are coming from Ripples. I guess I didn't see it as a competition because of my low self-esteem and all.