Very complicated need help

[Mike]

Need some feedback. I have been dating lynn for 3 1/2 years I manage a very popular nightclub in AZ. Lynn worked there also. she wanted to do more in a different field (she loves animals) so she enrolled in a school in Phx. Which is 3 hrs. from home. I supported the idea 100%.

she has been going to school for 61/2 months. She said she was working at a sports bar to help make ends meet. I went to phx. to suprise her last Mon. and it turned out I was suprised. I arrived at her place at 9 pm she did'nt get home till 1 am she hasn't been working at a sports bar she has been stripping at a club. Know one in the family knows (her mother or father nor myself) she is still going to school. To top it off she had a fling with someone.

The fling she said was purely accidental the guy took advantage of her when she had too much to drink.

Lynn and I love each other but before she left she said she wanted the time to find lynn.

We talked after i found out what has been going on and she said she has been so confused how to tell me she was stripping to make ends meet.

she says she loves me but I am so confused

[Tony T]

Not much to be confused about at all. Stripping is the easiest way for an attractive lady to make lots of money real fast if she isn't shy about baring it all in public. Respectable strip clubs (as well as most local ordinances) have strict rules about contact with dancers, dancers giving out phone numbers, etc. (however, it does happen anyway sometimes)

 

I think there are a lot of men who would work as an "exotic dancer" if they were female. There are some dancers who make as much as $600 to $700 on a good night and as much as $3,000 or more in a week. I suspect that an average dancer in an average club makes about $1,000 per week if she works hard, depending on the city and the caliber of the club. (Depends on how many hours she works and how many other dancers of her ethnicity she's competing with)

 

So in my book she has made a pretty good financial decision...to make as much money as she can in as short a time as she can and get some exercise at the same time.

 

Yes, this type of thing can lead to undesireable behaviors such as drug use and prostitution, which sometimes eminates from these establishments.

 

She has a free will and is not on parole or probation so she can do whatever she wants. You'll either have to deal with it or turn her loose. If you don't trust her to keep her hands clean and ONLY dance...then, again, you'll have to break up with her unless you want to pay her tuition and living expenses.

 

As far as her "fling," you can't control her drinking or what she does when she gets drunk. What she did was something any young person can do. Since we know she has the capacity to lie, you will never know the actual extent of this fling, exactly how it happened, or how long the fling lasted. Obviously, at this point you will have doubts about her credibility.

 

You are very wrong to expect a certain behavior from her. She is young and still finding her way in the world. She'll have to make a lot of mistakes before she can be as perfect as you. Unless you're willing to accept that she is a fallible human being who will do regretable things from time to time, forget her and move on.

 

I know it bothers you that she lied about working at a sports bar. If I were her, I probably would have done the same thing. Even though this is somewhat of a trust issue, I wouldn't hold it against her that she feared your reaction if she told you she was working at a sports bar when, in fact, she was stripping at a night club. I'm sure lots of ladies mislead their guys this way to keep the peace.

 

If men could create an atmosphere of non-judgement and acceptance, they wouldn't get lied to nearly so much. People who are accepting get the truth a lot more often.

 

So just accept this, be supportive of her decisions or at least accepting of them, and make your own decision as to whether you want to keep her as a girlfriend or let her go. She is not obligated in any way to work where you want her to...or do anything else you'd like her to. Relationships are about accepting the other person exactly as they are and understanding that people grow and change constantly.

 

Don't expect this lady or any lady you date or marry from now until the end of the world to do all the things you want her to, to be all the things you want her to be, and remain unchanged from who she was the day you met her. Young people, especially, change in major ways for a period of three or four years.

 

I'd love to take my clothes off a few hours each night for $1,000 or more a week!!! As her if they use male dancers where she works.

[Mike]

Thank you tony you put it all in perspective and you are absolutely right

[Bill]

When you look for a job, is the only one a stripping place?

 

If you say yes, you are kidding yourself. The job market right now is very good and has been for quite some time. Drive around, look at all the HELP WANTED signs. This girl had some choices, this is the choice that she chose.

 

You really have to think about this, about how she could not talk to you about this. Communication is the key to a good relationship. She knew this would upset you, but she chose this job anyway. Don't fool yourselves, there are many other options for jobs. In the end, we all do what we want to do... ex. She got that job because she was ok with it. Ask yourself if you are ok with all these guys getting off on your girlfriend.

 

See how she would like it if you turned the story around.

 

And she had a fling! That.. well that should be for you to decide how to handle that one.

[Angel]

This country is going amuck with the "everything is okay" syndrome. It's okay to be a stripper (because it's a fast buck), it's okay to lie (because it's a white lie) it's okay to do anything because .....

 

It's not okay to be a stripper, a prostitute, a drunk, have sex with just anybody cuz you're drunk, to lie to someone you love, do drugs, etc. etc.

 

Find yourself a nice girl with morals and VALUES, so you can value her and yourself. You will love yourself 20 years from now. Is this the kind of person you want raising your children? Being the primary role model for your children? Stop thinking with the brainless head!

 

Good luck with your decision.

[Tony T]

I'm glad you stopped by to tell us what's OK and what's not OK. That always comes in handy for us who are busy and don't have time to make those decisions.

 

Now, we need your help with finding a nice girl with morals and values. What kind of morals and values should we look for since those vary from person to person?

 

Let me ask you, is stripping (taking your clothes off but covering nipples with pasties and covering the vaginal area as required by most laws) for a roomful of people worse than a woman taking all of her clothes off for individual men and screwing them, as many women do not long after meeting them at clubs, etc.? I've never made a habit of judging this sort of stuff so I need your help.

 

Since you say it's not OK to lie, then I have to assume you have never done so, even to your parents to keep your butt out of hot water. Wouldn't this qualify you for the Guiness World Book of Records?

 

A person who strips is not any more of a stripper than a person who lies is a liar. These are behaviors that do not define a person. We cannot define a person by what they do for a living or by their behaviors, in my opinion, which may be wrong. If I am wrong, then I am a liar (I have lied before), I am a murderer (I have killed insects), I am a vandal (I have run into cars and other objects), I am promiscuous (I have had sex outside of marriage), I am thoughtless (I have forgotten birthdays and anniversaries before), I am heartless (I have ignored people occasionally)...gawd, I am a downright rotten person.

 

Even liars tell the truth most of the time. Strippers strip for so many hours a day and for so many days in their lifetime. If your grandmother was a stripper in her 20s for a week, is she still a stripper?

 

You are very right, though, and I very much agree that not all is OK. But if something is not illegal, it's pretty hard for me to walk around with my OK meter and tell people what's OK and what's not. People have a free will and can decide what's OK for them and what's not as long as they don't hurt others.

 

There are MANY strippers who are uneducated and live alone with their children. They hire babysitters and go out and do the only thing they can to bring in the money they need to feed and clothe their children. I know some of them and they are good people. For them, getting a day desk job at $6 per hour hardly pays the daycare for the kids while they work (very expensive).

 

You are very right, as well, that it is not good to be a prostitute, a drunk or have indiscriminate sex. But before I judge the individuals that do those things, I have to find out if they had the same kind or moral and ethical training as young people that you had. Many of them were severely abused, beaten, received no love, abandoned by their parents, etc.

 

It's too bad they do those things and many of them have no excuse. But before I pound up on them and tell them what a piece of shxt they are, I want to know just what led them to those paths and why the universe has chosen to put them through such harsh learning experiences.

 

There are many former prostitutes, drunks and promiscuous people who are now very respected and productive members of communities. And it is many of those who make the best leaders, parents, etc., because they have been to those bad places, know what the drill is, and will do all they can to see that others don't follow in their paths.

 

President George W. Bush was admittedly once a drunk and a user of cocaine. (His twin daughters are following in his footsteps) So is our president a drunk and a cokehead? If so, his job approval ratings are very high for being those.

[Bill]

I'm glad you stopped by to tell us what's OK and what's not OK. That always comes in handy for us who are busy and don't have time to make those decisions.

 

Well, I am very glad someone could do that for you all.

 

Have I lied before? Yes. Am I a liar... No. The real definition of a liar is someone that "lies repeatedly".

 

That word "repeatedly" is what you missed Tony.

 

To knowingly decieve someone, is worse than murder. And murder means to kill another human being, not insects.

 

You miss the point in all of these.. to KNOWINGLY DECIEVE.

 

In ancient times, there used to be shop owners that sold fruits, vegables, and other goods. Some of these shop owners were down right evil. How do I know? Well, when they sold their basket of apples (or such), the apples on the top of the basket look absolutely great, but below them were bad rotten apples. To the person buying it, they think they are getting what is on the top, the good apples. The shop owner KNOWS about these bad apples, but does not tell the customer that there are bad apples below, nor does he tell them that there are not. The shop owner works upon the intellect of the customer to decieve them without actually telling them the whole story, because no questions need to be asked. The customer ASSUMES that all of the rest of the apples look just like what's on the top.

 

There are many people just like this shop owner today, but they are not selling apples Tony. What you don't know, CAN hurt you. For all the things we do know about this girl that he is dating, there are much more things that all of us do not know. She has been known to lie about things like this. She cheated on him... that shows she is not devoted and absolutely NOT to be trusted.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but when someone breaks my trust, most likely it's not ever coming back. Trust is VERY important in a relationship. How can you live with someone if you think they are going to do something like this again?

 

Wake up and smell the apples! Someone post the definition of LOVE here and see if it coincides with how she acts towards him.

 

___

Bill

[midori]

It seems to me like there are a few different issues involved in this situation:

 

1. girlfriend stripping

2. girlfriend lying about stripping

3. girlfriend getting drunk and cheating

 

It would be easy to lump these three together under the heading "Not OK" or "Immoral" but I don't think that's what Mike was looking for when he posted his problem. He's clearly an intelligent, thoughtful person, and if he wanted to make a general categorical diagnosis he could easily have done so himself.

 

Here's my take on each of the three things:

 

1. Stripping: as Tony says, an "easy" way to make some quick cash if you can get over issues of modesty, etc. It's not my way, but for those who can do so (provided they are doing it only for the money), why not? Who, exactly, is being hurt? For the record, work is not so easily found in the current economy, and certainly not at the payrates one could find as a stripper (according to Tony, at least, and in this I must defer to his knowledge as I have none of my own).

 

Having said that, I think that stripping must be approached with extreme caution, and an awareness of the following issues: the rampant drug use that I understand pervades the scene, the often unsavory characters who run such establishments, the often unsavory characters who patronize such places. In other words, a girl would need to have her act together, be prepared to draw her boundaries and steadfastly maintain them, and be able to generally take care of herself. If she's in control of the situation, is getting her money without problem, and is getting home without hassles, OK. Is your girlfriend able to take care of herself or is she vulnerable? That's what seems to be at issue as far as her well-being is concerned.

 

Although I think there's nothing wrong with stripping in and of itself, I can see where one's partner might have a problem with it. Mike, if the idea of your girlfriend taking her clothes off in front of strangers bothers you, you're well within your rights to say, "too much for me, I'm ending this." In other words stripping is fine for some women, but they can't expect that their boyfriends will be all right with it, and thus they may find themselves having to make a choice between the two. Don't put up with it if it will gnaw away at you.

 

2. Lying: never a good thing, although I can see why she lied about the stripping job. Good opening for a dialogue about honesty -- why did she feel the need to lie about her work? Because she was afraid you wouldn't approve? People in a relationship need to give their partners the chance to make up their own minds about things, rather than deciding for them how they'll react. Now she's just complicated this sticky issue by lying about it -- you're worried not just about the stripping but also about the lying. Not too smart. Or did she lie to you about the stripping because she's ashamed and doesn't want anyone to know? If she's ashamed, she shouldn't be doing it. I'm not saying she ought to go to the supermarket dressed in her pasties, or that she ought to plaster a bumper sticker on her car that says "I take my clothes off in front of strangers for money!" but if she can't bear to admit what she's doing to her loved ones, then she's not as sanguine about this as she needs to be -- so she probably shouldn't be doing it.

 

3. Cheating: here I do agree with others that it's just not OK. Can you get past it, Mike? You're not obliged to, but if you can and want to, that's your call. Seems to me like it depends on how she has processed the whole thing. We all make mistakes, but if she's laying all of the blame on the alcohol, she's not owning up to the fact that it was she who consumed the alcohol, and however impaired her judgement, it was she who slept with this guy -- not some stranger in her body. Is alcohol a problem for her? Does she frequently blame things other than herself for things that she does? Those are the troubling things that I see in this. I guess an "acceptable" description from her would sound something like this, "I had too much to drink, and made a bad decision. I realize that I'm not able to function as I would like to when I'm drinking, so from here on in I'm keeping my drinking in check, and I won't be drinking when I'm in the company of strangers, especially given my new line of work. I feel awful about having betrayed you and it will never happen again." Something along those lines would at least give me hope that she realizes that a) she wronged you and b) she needs to get a grip on herself so that she doesn't continue to hurt you and herself.

 

So that's how I see it. It seems to me like there are a lot of unanswered questions that you will have to figure out before you'll know if working things out with this girl are possible. I don't think anyone would be surprised if you decide -- even without answering the questions -- that this situation is too problematic to be worth the effort. But none of us here know either of you. Maybe she has other qualities that compensate for the grief she's giving you at the moment. If she's going to continue to trouble you with her behavior, you ought to end it no matter how wonderful she is in other ways.

[Bill]

For the record, work is not so easily found in the current economy, and certainly not at the payrates one could find as a stripper (according to Tony, at least, and in this I must defer to his knowledge as I have none of my own).

 

Actually, there are a lot of jobs available. You can surely find a job that will pay enough. EVERYDAY I drive down different roads and there are HELP WANTED signs all over every building. The economy is doing well (aside from the national debt, lol). Not even Bill Gates could dent the national debt.

 

 

 

See the economy for yourself http://stats.bls.gov

[Angel]

I think Tony got up on the wrong side of the bed! Whew!!!

It was my understanding that the reason people posted their problems here was to get a variety of opinions. I posted my take on the problem (unfortunately I got blasted because Tony disagreed with me)---anyway, no matter, Tony gives excellent advice.

 

Find a girl that shares YOUR values. If your values in life are compatible, the road to happiness is less bumpy. If you can live with a person that has compromised values that you find essential, I would stay and work on the relationship. If you cannot----move on. Keep us posted.

[Tony T]

I didn't mean to blast you, although it sounded that way. I think debate is a good thing. That's how we all get to be better people. I don't profess to know all the answers and, frankly, the older I get the less I know.

 

I used to be very harsh and judgemental about the behaviour of others and at times I find myself falling back into that trap. But as I have gotten older I have found, indeed, that life judges us and treats us exactly as we judge others. Some call it karma. Life has been much nicer to me since I stopped judging people and calling what they do right or wrong or evil or whatever. I'm not really in a position to know what's right or wrong for others because I'm not in their shoes.

 

That's my experience and I'm still far from perfect. But if I write something that seems harsh, it's only because I'm ranting and it has nothing to do with you personally. If you sat right next to me at lunch, I would have absolutely no idea it was you.....I hope if that happens you will introduce yourself....so I can tell you whether or not what you're wearing is proper for the establishment (lol).

 

Now as far as me getting up on the wrong side of the bed, it came with no directions...but I get up on the same side every morning. Maybe I've been doing it all wrong...I'll try the other side.

[Angel]

I don't take it personally Tony. I know I have gone full cirlce with my ideas, notions, and opinions thru the years also. I think this young man will benefit from hearing opinions from all of us. BTW, I have done my share of ranting also and, at least for today, the Comet is out of the refrigerator.

[Ally Boo]

Wow this is a touchy subject.

First of all, let me say that I am not a fan of long distance relationships period.

I'm not saying it can't work, BUT...the way I see it is....if you aren't able to be with each other, its NOT a relationship. I was engaged for 2 years to a guy I'd known since I was 12 years old, and divorced him once I actually spent enough quaility time (not best behavior) with him to realize he was NOT what I thought...and I spent every weekend with him, and he lived less than an hour away.

When she said she needed to find herself, that should have been a big clue right there. Sounds to me like she just didn't have the balls to break up with you...and that's what she should have done. But after my analyzing this situation, I believe that she wanted to keep you there waiting on her in case finding herself and doing whatever she wanted didn't give her the benefit she'd get being with you.

Clue number 2 is....she lied. People who are in a real relationship should feel able to tell each other ANYTHING. If you can't tell them, who CAN you tell? She's rebelling from you, and sounds like from her family too. And that's ok, as long as she doesn't string you along, like she has been doing. My policy is....I can NEVER get mad at you, if you tell me the truth...its when you LIE that I will never see you the same way again. My ex bf was a pathological liar. And being with a liar is not a relationship either. BC Relationships are built on truth and trust, and frankly, you can't have one without the other.

Clue number 3 is...she cheated. Cheating does not happen if a person is happy. Drunk or not. I think the drunk excuse is the worst one. Drinking usually only gives you a little more courage to do what you really want to do anyway. I can think of many times I was drunk, in a club with guys hitting on me, and I turned them down bc I was in love. If her needs were being met by you (which they can't be bc you are like 3 hours away anyway), she wouldn't have cheated....drunk or sober. And honestly...in my opinion, if you were meeting her needs before she left, she'd still be there with you now. And I'm not saying you are a bad boyfriend at ALL. She just has needs that simply cannot be met under the circumstances she's been in.

Clue number 4 is...She wouldn't be stripping without telling you if she respected you or your relationship. Getting permission is one thing...but telling the person you are with ABOUT it, is completely different.

All of these clues put together show that she does NOT love you, & I think she wants out of the relationship, but won't act on it bc...

A) She has no balls,

B) Doesn't want to hurt you (which she uh already did), and

C) wants to keep you around just in CASE.

 

Now the field I'd like to study is not offered near here, and instead of moving away from the person I love, I've considered enrolling in a school that offers it online and get my degree that way, or just hang out, work in the field, get as much experience as possible, and see if there is another subject I could study that would be benefitial and maybe offered around here. And if it was something I REALLY wanted to do, I know he'd relocate to where it'd be closer for us to live with each other, and do what we need to do. My point is...There are more options than just one...and I'm not saying stripping is wrong, I know ppl who do it, but its not the only option out there, and if her sincere objective is to better her career, she would be working in that field, and I doubt she's going to school to be in the porn industry...but that's just me. And as far as the bills go...there are things called student loans, roommates and credit cards, and if used correctly, they will help her get by all her problems.

 

And finally, if you were serious with this girl, and thought about having children with her...just think about what would happen if your daughter turned 18 and found out her mom was a stripper and made good money...why can't she?? You gotta think about all sides of the situation...and its just a total given that things will never be the same...so I'd seriously consider hanging it up and finding someone who actually feels like they can talk to you, and at least give you back what you are able to give them....truth and trust.

[Bill]

She has no balls

 

 

I agree... I SURE hope she doesn't

[Ally Boo]

LMAO You know what I mean!!! hehe

[Ron]

I agree with Bill.

 

Bill, I hope you become a lawyer or even better than that a judge someday. If I had had a lawyer like you and a judge like you I wouldn't be in prison for murder.

 

I ONLY DID IT ONE TIME! DOES THAT MAKE ME A MURDERER?

[Bill]

There are some things that you have misunderstood. A murderer is defined as someone that murders AT LEAST once intentionally.

 

 

"Thou shall not kill" [refers to human killing human]

It's one of the 10 commandments. You should follow ALL of these. If you kill someone, YOU are a murderer. I would convict you... moreover, I would follow "The Code of Hammurabi" for this situation.

 

But really, you seem like someone from this forum just trying to make a mockery of my posting. If you had a judge like me, you would not be typing today. Next time, be more obvious.

[Ron]

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor (also known as lying).

 

If you've done it once you're a liar and you have broken a commandment.

 

That's about as plain as a tick on a dogs face.

 

Bill, shall we start a new thread about religious or philosophical beliefs?

[Bill]

An interpretation of the 10 commandments.

 

A quote:

 

" Because of the foibles and frailties of human nature, the ninth commandment was given. This commandment reminds men of the human tendency to lie and to be on guard against it. Men must value the truth and learn not to lie. A man is only as good as his word. This ninth commandment was given to protect man's reputation. It gives those who pay heed freedom from the fear of being found a liar. The ninth commandment was given to insure justice in the courts. It was given as a check against slander. This commandment was given as a benefit and blessing for mankind. Obedience to this commandment can lead to eternal life. "

 

I was going to explain, but this says it all better.

[BeReal]

As someone who is currently unemployed I can assure you that the job market is not perfect. There may be a lot of jobs available but most of them are low wage. It is amazing what employers want you to do for 6,7,or 8 bucks an hour or less. Now, I've recently applied for a job that is not something I think I will love and man what a process I had to go through to apply. I would be lucky to get 10 or 11 bucks an hour at this job and that would be just great with me.

 

Employers that are offering high paying jobs require vast experience, education, training, skills etc. That is all fine and dandy but these are things you must work towards. These are not jobs available to everyone. All this woman has to do is have a fit, beautiful body and she can earn $1000 or more a week for working minimal hours? I'm sorry but you really can't say she could get this money doing a different job. Perhaps when she finishes her degree.

 

Anyway, I'm done ranting about that. Just because a job pays a lot does not make it an appropriate choice. I've heard of women who will strip for a few years to help pay for college. I've also heard of women who abandon their college education in favor of stripping. I am a little weary of women who strip. It seems like they don't quite respect themselves enough. It also seems that they tend to have significant issues.

 

You were a little vague about the "fling" details. I'm unclear if it was rape or cheating. This woman doesn't sound like the most emotionally healthy person. It all boils down to whether you can accept her stripping and other recent behavior to give the relationship another chance. There are healthier fish in the sea.