Separated, Sad, but hopeful in different ways. (Also a BIG thanks to a board member!)

[morephine]

Good job Del,

 

I'm finding this out as we speak on setting and attaining goals that are put forth for myself.

 

Now one thing that I would like to add that will make these goals more attainable is to set specific plans on how to attain those goals as well as a realistic time frame. Another thing that you should do is to make a reward for yourself for accomplishing each of those objectives.

 

Make sure that when you set objectives don't set them too high you should be challenged but not overwhelmed. As you accomplish those objectives you reward yourself and set other objectives that are even more challenging than the last. This will in turn develop more self confidence in yourself while allowing yourself to get past your issues.

 

Hope this helps as I said, I'm struggling with this myself but I have the plans that I need and now I'm working towards them.

[FlyingHigh]

First, to FlyingHigh: Thank you for all the advice given here. I was reading and things are starting to "click" with me. Kind of like Mum2three said, it's different when someone gives you specific examples rather than just generalizing things. You're posts here have been very insightful for myself.

You're welcome, morephine. And thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

Haven't repled for days just because I wanted to see where our friend Del was going to lead us to his next chapter. So here's yet another two cents of mine.

 

Del,

 

I feel your agony over your futile attempts to reach your wife to see your view. The number ONE dilema YOU have is that YOU haven't decided HOW you are going to pursue your goals. WHY? Because you are still contradicting yourself. And in turn has NOT allowed you to be decisive. And when you're not decisive, you end up daisy petal picking over what move you're going to do next. On top of that, you're trying to guess what your wife's reaction will be.

So, although I want to focus on myself and do things for ME... I can't help thinking about her. I can't help wondering how she feels today about life. I cannot seem to free my mind enough to live daily life.

Do you see the pattern you've created? Then add your lack of self confidence...

What a friggin idiot I am sometimes... Of COURSE she sees this as beating a dead horse as we have talked a lot in the past couple days. She sees me as consumed by this (as I am), but I am SHOWING her that. I am truly a fool. Hahah, we all make mistakes.

The ONLY way you will come across confident to your wife or anyone is IF you feel confident yourself. Part of that confidence is created by how you perceive yourself. And how your perceive yourself is how others will see you. In other words, start figuring out HOW TO LOVE yourself. Only then can you truly feel independent of your need to have your love return by your wife which you already know you are not getting.

 

When I told her I think it's going to be important for her to deal with her issues, and that I thought she was incapable of loving anyone at the moment due to many of them she called and left a message at a therapists office right away.

Be careful as to not come across as her therapist or a "father" figure to her. No woman is gonna want to have a hot salsa night with her husband if he comes across like a father....

 

As for your goals, here's my take on each one:

1.) Do not let this control my life anymore. What will be WILL be and I have to still try, but continue to take care of daily living.

What are they? "Trying" is less than "doing". Trying is not "I will". Trying is NOT, "this is what I'm going to do." But what "TRYING" means is that "I will give it some thought whenever the time comes and if it doesn't work out, oh well, at least I've tried" attitude

 

2.) Do not share all my thoughts with my wife. Communication is fine, but until we both progress on our own... deal with our own issues... and progress (one way or the other) in couples therapy ... talking about it more does nothing but make me obsess.

Communication is a TWO way conversation. Allow your wife the same amount of time to share her thoughts/feeling/emotions with you without being judgemental. Refrain from being her therapist, father figure, big brother, etc. You're the husband, but not her keeper.

3.) Get to a point where I can feel comfortable moving on (With or without my wife.) This is a hard one. I am a ways from this goal, but just seeing it listed as an actual goal makes it seem more attainable. I am a great person, so the rest is a bonus. I have plenty to give whether it be my wife, or someone else later in life.

In order to get to that point, you gotta start somewhere some time. Let me give you another analogy.

 

You've been staring/looking at your marriage AND life you do when you have just accidentally shattered a treasured flower vase. You have these choices to make:

1) You can keep staring at it in disbelief and shock, then numb

2) You can sweep the pieces and toss them out. In other words, move on and start over.

3) You can try to take each broken piece and glue them together piece by piece. With persistence and perserverance, you will still have your treasured vase even with visible cracks. But over time, you don't notice the cracks as much because you treasure and love that vase, flaws/cracks and all.

 

Honesly, you're still stuck in number one. While you say you will try to "move on", you still continue to contradict yourself and you have NOT begun to DECIDE which direction you want to go by virtue of your wife's feedback where she said she's not ready for a divorce. HOWEVER, you wrote:

She does not WANT a divorce or to lose me as a friend, but says "The way she feels right NOW we won't be married in six months."

THIS IS YOUR CLUE TO SHAPE UP!!!! If she wanted to throw in the towel, she would have done it! GET A CLUE, Del! So if you really want #3, help put your marriage toget, you've got SIX months.

 

While she may have used as her Dad as an excuse to deflect what the real issue may be, 6 months COULD be a trial period in which she is looking to see if you will "change" so to speak.

 

On one of my reply, I suggested you two list your emotional needs, have you done them? Do both of you know what they are? Frankly, therapy would be pointless if either of you don't know each other's basic emotional needs.

 

I'm struggling with this myself but I have the plans that I need and now I'm working towards them.

Plans are great. But plans are useless if all they are...are just plans.

 

In other words, Christmas is over and so is your Pity Party. You gotta start working on yourself. Not tomorrow. Not Next week or next month. TODAY! Even yesterday!!

 

You've got SIX months. Use it to your advantage to get yourself together. BUT, you gotta...

 

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOURSELF SO YOU WON'T LOOK BACK WITH REGRETS.

[Guest]

i totally agree. when u take control of your own life and communicate what you want and who u are and how u value another and yourself - you will feel great and alive by stating - here is the deal, and do it together, give enuff time so it is not presented as rushed or pressure, but respect and honesty,

 

and when that time comes, stick with what u vowed - and don't look back if things don't work out. in the meanwhile, get things in your life together, prepared for either outcome, stay healthy in mind, body and spirit. and 2007 will live up to your expectations - that being, a new life, a turning point where your past is no longer a rope hung around your next - and that is me now. totally jazzed babe

[Delarocha]

I feel your agony over your futile attempts to reach your wife to see your view. The number ONE dilema YOU have is that YOU haven't decided HOW you are going to pursue your goals. WHY? Because you are still contradicting yourself. And in turn has NOT allowed you to be decisive. And when you're not decisive, you end up daisy petal picking over what move you're going to do next. On top of that, you're trying to guess what your wife's reaction will be.

 

The problem is I want my marriage to work. I am currently working on myself, but as far as a plan for moving forward with my marriage the only plan is "go to counseling, talk if we have something to talk about, and go from there." With each passing day my hope of coming through this WITH my wife fades. I cannot force her to speed the process up. In a lot of ways this marriage depends on me, but SHE is a determining factor in if this marriage will work. I want it to, she does not know... So until then... The plan is try not to sit around moping, try to live life. What ELSE can I do? ANYTHING I do to work for this marriage will be considered pushy at this point. So, I reach out to friends, I cook for myself, I read, I go to the gym, I LIVE whatever life I have at the moment and try to make more of a life for myself. I don't understand what else I am supposed to PLAN.

 

 

Be careful as to not come across as her therapist or a "father" figure to her. No woman is gonna want to have a hot salsa night with her husband if he comes across like a father....

 

As for your goals, here's my take on each one:

 

What are they? "Trying" is less than "doing". Trying is not "I will". Trying is NOT, "this is what I'm going to do." But what "TRYING" means is that "I will give it some thought whenever the time comes and if it doesn't work out, oh well, at least I've tried" attitude

 

I have allowed this entire situation to consume my life. At one point I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep properly, I was crying 23 out of 24 hours. The more I DID the worse things got. I cannot possibly be a father figure because my wife doesn't want to hear she needs help from me. She wants to go to a therapist, confirm that she should leave, and leave. I certainly hope her intentions are somewhat more pure than that, but I don't expect. I am TRYING right now because anything that could be done is done. I setup counseling, I called to figure out how we would work out the insurance, I started my own therapy, I am doing the absolute best I can to be a better man, and a better husband. If she doesn't want to seek help I cannot make her. All I know is I can no longer DO anything until we get help. I've been thinking about this 24/7 and I CANNOT do it anymore. I am done being the only one trying at all. When she's ready to work, we'll work... If she's not ever ready... we'll get a divorce.

 

 

 

Communication is a TWO way conversation. Allow your wife the same amount of time to share her thoughts/feeling/emotions with you without being judgemental. Refrain from being her therapist, father figure, big brother, etc. You're the husband, but not her keeper.

 

In order to get to that point, you gotta start somewhere some time. Let me give you another analogy.

 

You've been staring/looking at your marriage AND life you do when you have just accidentally shattered a treasured flower vase. You have these choices to make:

1) You can keep staring at it in disbelief and shock, then numb

2) You can sweep the pieces and toss them out. In other words, move on and start over.

3) You can try to take each broken piece and glue them together piece by piece. With persistence and perserverance, you will still have your treasured vase even with visible cracks. But over time, you don't notice the cracks as much because you treasure and love that vase, flaws/cracks and all.

 

Honesly, you're still stuck in number one. While you say you will try to "move on", you still continue to contradict yourself and you have NOT begun to DECIDE which direction you want to go by virtue of your wife's feedback where she said she's not ready for a divorce. HOWEVER, you wrote:

 

THIS IS YOUR CLUE TO SHAPE UP!!!! If she wanted to throw in the towel, she would have done it! GET A CLUE, Del! So if you really want #3, help put your marriage toget, you've got SIX months.

 

 

First of all, I am standing here with all the pieces in my hands numbered and ready to figure out how to assemble. My wife stands with a bottle of glue locked in a case and a key in her hand. I can't make her open that case and start helping me glue. But that is my problem. I have consumed my life with how can I work with my wife to rebuild our lives TOGETHER. I know that. Every day I get closer to rebuilding my life with or without. I don't know how I know that, I just do. So, we are really talking about three different issues here. My issues, her issues, and our shared issues (and what's left of a marriage. One of us has the capability of loving, one of us apparently does not. So, who needs to work on THAT issue? Not me!... This is not to say I am blind to my own insecurities, weaknesses, and enabling ways. I allowed my passive nature to enable her to focus on making ME happy all the time. Instead of coming out and talking about how she felt, she held it inside... Why? Because when she would bring it up, it was usual yelling about it... and my own problems cause me to shutdown when that happens. I tend to get scared, upset, and frankly act not very much like a man. I SEE this now, and never could before. I work on that every single day. I realize that I HATE conflict, but at this point in my life I better learn to deal with it at the very least. Or I become a doormat... and nobody likes a doormat.

 

So, yes... I try to be here for her to communicate. Right now, nothing new is coming my way. She doesn't know how she feels about herself, and therefore can't tell me ANYTHING new. I am in a new place every day, but she is in the same place she was when this all started (probably before).

 

 

 

While she may have used as her Dad as an excuse to deflect what the real issue may be, 6 months COULD be a trial period in which she is looking to see if you will "change" so to speak.

 

On one of my reply, I suggested you two list your emotional needs, have you done them? Do both of you know what they are? Frankly, therapy would be pointless if either of you don't know each other's basic emotional needs.

 

 

Plans are great. But plans are useless if all they are...are just plans.

 

In other words, Christmas is over and so is your Pity Party. You gotta start working on yourself. Not tomorrow. Not Next week or next month. TODAY! Even yesterday!!

 

You've got SIX months. Use it to your advantage to get yourself together. BUT, you gotta...

 

LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR YOURSELF SO YOU WON'T LOOK BACK WITH REGRETS.

 

I think you are right on the money about emotional needs. A big part of MY problem is not knowing what my emotional needs really are. I am just started to figure them out, as I figure myself out. This may sound weird, but I have LONG talks with myself at night. I talk about how I feel out loud while walking around this house. Although I have been talking things out a LOT with my brother (who is much older and wiser than I), it helps to work out thoughts and feelings on your own. (Something I never have tried before).

 

 

So, I wanted to reply FlyingHigh... I am sorry you see me as pitying myself, but I'm not going to NOT feel what I feel. I am devastated that my marriage may be over, but until we progress with third party help there is nothing else I can do for US. I can however, try to decide if I am going to hold on to those glass pieces waiting for that glue... OR if I am going to just throw them away and move on. I realize the smart thing to do would be to throw them away and move on, but I (fortunately or unfortunately) still have hope for my wife. *shrug* I'm not going to stand here forever, but I will stand here until it no longer makes sense.

 

 

Another development I could use perspective on. My wife is coming back to stay in the spare bedroom (she was living with a friend) because she "wants to be in her comfort zone." She wanted to make it perfectly clear that she is not coming home because she feels any different. She still does not love me the way I love her, and still does not know exactly what she wants to do. However, I felt I had no choice but to let her come back. Not that I truly didn't have a choice, but I felt the reasons (for her) are healthy.

 

Living with her friend has given her space from me, but she has not had time to think about any of this. I think it's been easy for her to avoid working on herself by watching TV with her friend.

 

Now, I don't want to read too much into her wanting to be in her comfort zone. But she did explain we may go to one session of counseling and decide we can't be together. (Kind of telling I know.) Or if she brings home divorce papers we should go over it together. We do have a lot of shared responsibility so I guess I agree. Or if/when she leaves again it will be to move out and be on her own... her own apartment.

 

Sooooo, all I can do is keep on trucking. I am doing what I can do... and trying when I can try... I think you're right FH, there is a difference... But sometimes we have to try things we are not sure we can finish. Sometimes we try to DO and fail. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have tried, it just means we should learn from our mistakes for next time.

 

Anyway... Thanks for the thoughtful reply... I am doing my best, which may or may not be good enough... but it's the best I can do right now.

[FlyingHigh]

Del,

 

We know you are "trying" and doing your best in ways you know how. And I can feel your anguish in your attempts which you feel you are the only one in your marriage who seems to be giving it his all or even a damn.

 

I have allowed this entire situation to consume my life. At one point I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep properly, I was crying 23 out of 24 hours. The more I DID the worse things got.

That is why it's important to..

LIVE LIFE FOR YOURSELF SO THAT YOU WON'T LOOK BACK WITH REGRETS.

 

In other words, no matter how much you want your marriage to work, if your wife has "emotionally" checked out, NOTHING YOU DO or SAY will work or make a difference.

 

The problem is I want my marriage to work. I am currently working on myself, but as far as a plan for moving forward with my marriage the only plan is "go to counseling, talk if we have something to talk about, and go from there." With each passing day my hope of coming through this WITH my wife fades.

Think OUTSIDE the box, Del.

 

All I know is I can no longer DO anything until we get help. I've been thinking about this 24/7 and I CANNOT do it anymore.

Again, THINK OUTSIDE the box...

 

I am done being the only one trying at all. When she's ready to work, we'll work... If she's not ever ready... we'll get a divorce.

This is absolutely true. You can't force her to hand you the glue and help you put the pieces together. And if she "emotionally checked out" of the marriage, she won't hand you the glue. So keep thinking outside the box...

 

So, yes... I try to be here for her to communicate. Right now, nothing new is coming my way. She doesn't know how she feels about herself, and therefore can't tell me ANYTHING new.

Figure out WHY she won't communicate with you. There is something that you are doing that's causing her to not open up. If you have approached her in the same manner or used the same method of communicating to her, CHANGE IT! ADJUST YOUR SAILS! Don't force her. Make yourself approachable so that she FEELS SAFE to want to talk to you. Sometimes, saying LESS is better.

 

So, I reach out to friends, I cook for myself, I read, I go to the gym, I LIVE whatever life I have at the moment and try to make more of a life for myself. I don't understand what else I am supposed to PLAN.

If this is has been your typical activities, ADD to it. In other words, what else is there? LIVING IN OR AT THE MOMENT isn't exactly a Black Tie event, but you've yet to list WHAT ELSE is there outside of what I would consider mundane. And if I'm, a perfect stranger to you, see these as mundane, your wife would probably shrug and say in the same way, "Okay, so?"

 

Don't you have any goals that you've always wanted to do? Take Dad_of_3, for example, he feared heights. But he conquered it by skyjumping - something he'd always wanted to do but never did until he was going through the same thing you're going through. So, if this is all you have going, add to it to make yourself look exciting to anyone, not just your wife. What else are you doing besides, cooking for yourself, going to the gym, etc...

 

This is exactly what I mean, Del....about "THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX". As long as you continue to "live in or at the moment", what this really means is that you are accepting what life deals you. And as long as you have this attitude, there's no reason to do anything else, BUT live in the moment. In other words, living in the moment INHIBITS the human spirit from exploring outside of their comfort level because of "fear". Take comfort that you're not the only one who swims and struggles with life with every breath. But you gotta do other things. LIVE!!!!!

 

Your fear is losing your marriage. Understandable because you love your wife very much. Also understand that your "fear" is also felt by your wife. And as long as she feels your fear, she won't want to be in it. The other side is would you want a marriage if her reason for staying married to you is out of guilt or pity for you? In other words, don't let her feel your fear. Again, it comes back to changing your approach, doesn't it?

 

Another development I could use perspective on. My wife is coming back to stay in the spare bedroom (she was living with a friend) because she "wants to be in her comfort zone." She wanted to make it perfectly clear that she is not coming home because she feels any different. She still does not love me the way I love her, and still does not know exactly what she wants to do. However, I felt I had no choice but to let her come back. Not that I truly didn't have a choice, but I felt the reasons (for her) are healthy

Here's a perfect opportunity for you to do something totally different. It doesn't require words or will force her to communicate. Put flowers in that spare bedroom. Again, identify her love language. You've yet to figure that out. Use every opportunity when she comes to "stay" to DEMONSTRATE and FULFILL her love language. A part of her emotional needs. Most women love flowers, scented candles, perfumed body wash, etc.... KNOW them!!! Know your wife's love language and emotional needs!!! If you don't, your marriage will surely end. Both of your emoional needs can be discussed in counseling. But, start getting to know each of your emotional needs.

 

Finding each other's emotional needs is vital. This is why most marriages/relationships fall. Emotional needs are not being met. If you don't know her emotional needs, expect she won't want to stay. If you don't KNOW how to get her to tell you, nonchalantly bring it up in one of your "serious" talks this way...calmly....

 

"I realize I haven't been the husband and man you wanted, but if I could do it all over again with you or someone else in the future, is there anything I could've, should've done to meet your needs or done differently?"

 

DO NOT say anything more. Just sit and listen. What this question does is that you're not focusing or hinting your desperation to make her stay or keep your marriage. With this question, you're asking for her advise WITHOUT really trying hard, if that makes sense. It's a sublte approach to get her to communicate without really asking. If your wife is mature enough, she'll see a person who is willing to learn and understand women.

 

If she opens up, don't challenge. If she gives you a list of what you lacked or things you didn't do, simply apologize and say, "I'm so sorry that I didn't do... I wished I had known it then..." Don't say anything else. If she doesn't reply, look at her and say, "I'm really sorry, I made you feel that way...." In the end, thank her for sharing her thoughts. Make sure that what you say will not shift blame. This approach may help her start thinking (if she's mature) that she IS VERY much a part of the demise in your marriage. That it's NOT ALL YOU!

 

She still does not love me the way I love her, and still does not know exactly what she wants to do.

Then, don't dwell on it. And as long as she doesn't know, consider it a good sign.

 

BOTTOM LINE: Give her reasons to want to stay in the marriage with you. If you haven't figure that out, ask yourself this question:

 

If I were her, would I want to be married to me?

[Delarocha]

FlyingHigh,

Thank you. I admit when I first read your recent response (the one before last) my initial reaction was defensive. I am sure you could probably tell. I just had a very long talk with my other brother (who again is much older and wiser than I) and realized some very important things. Again, I am not trying to beat a dead horse but here are the facts as I see them:

 

1.) My wife is moving back in so that WHEN she decides on divorce we can face it together. Also, she wants to take care of our shared responsibilities and be there as a FRIEND.

 

2.) My wife wants to keep a friendship (on some level anyway) with me even after we are divorced. I suppose I can see that happening, but realistically I am trying to take this time to EXPECT that we will get a divorce, but have some amount of hope. I do hope I can have some future contact with her, even if its just to keep in touch. (I know this may not be possible.)

 

3.) If after counseling she decides she does not want to work on us, I will not fight it. I will accept the situation. I am already expecting that will happen in a way and trying to accept where we are.

 

So, more and more I am accepting reality... It's sad, but I get better at dealing.

 

Anyway, THANK YOU for all your advice. I am taking it all in and accepting AS I go...

[mum2three]

Wow, what a thread! Del, you and I seem to be stuck between listening to our hearts and doing what our brain is telling us to do so we can move on with our lives. I have to tell you that it is probably going to be much harder on you to move on with your W moving back in. I don't know how that will play out for you and since you work out of home too, it is harder to detach.

 

You brain is logically telling you that you need to move on so you could be a better person for yourself. You want to leave the door open for your wife but how do you that without getting hurt? That is the million dollar question! We love you FH for your extensive examples. Many of us are re-reading to gain insight in our own sitch.

 

It is hard to understand why your W is so closed off and can't communicate with you. You cannot reach her right now. But she is at least cordial and wants a decent level of friendship. My H is not even trying to be cordial and just wants me out of his life. You do have a glimmer of hope if you can strengthen that friendship.

 

Stay strong. It is good that she is attempting counseling. But keep your goal on yourself and be independent. Don't rest all emotions on getting back together. Keep a PMA and try and get out of the house so you are not spending too much time together. It is not quality time but maybe a co-dependence if she moves back in. And you are such a sweetheart for letting her come back to the "comfort zone". Just be good to yourself. We worry about u here at LS.

[Delarocha]

(continued from last post... ran out of time before)

 

Now, let me point out some things I have learned (or THINK I have learned) about myself.

 

1.) I have an enormous ability to love and deserve to be loved. This is something I will never lose or mask because I fear getting hurt or being abandoned.

2.) I look in the mirror now and DO in fact love the person I see. I may not be fully aware of all my own gifts and faults, but I don't need to be fully aware to know I love what I see.

3.) I want to be a happy person.

4.) I am good looking, funny, talented, have a good job, good friends, good family, and WILL be a stable attractive person. I may not be ready in six months, or a year, or two years to find someone who can love me for ME, but I am certain someday I will. I do wish to share my life with others around me. Physically, emotionally, and who knows... maybe someday romantically. All I do know is that I have to work VERY hard to not look for love for the wrong reason... or better yet, to not look at all.

5.) I CAN be strong physically and emotionally. I have shown such amazing signs of improvement that I have shocked even myself. All of these changes are wonderful and regardless of the fact that they did not save my current relationship; they will make me a better version of myself.

6.) I CAN laugh again. I have cried so hard I thought my heart would never feel joy. Although I am currently in a sad situation, I can't let it remove my spirit.

7.) Divorce does not mean I am tainted goods. I can't help the fact that I have failed in my marriage. I can't go back in time and change. However, I can be free again on my own and just be who I am. If somewhere down the line someone doesn't want to be near me because I have a big D in my loss column, then they are not worth much as a person.

 

Reading the above list of things that I know about MYSELF is tough. I honestly can say that 1-6 are absolutely I feel in my very core. I can also honestly say I almost went back and deleted 7. I realize I have a very serious self esteem problem. Until I overcome the fact that I can't talk to new people, or feel confident, or feel good about myself... I will never fully realize 7 as a fact.

 

I am currently the shy, sensitive, sad, insecure man... but I am still a man. I can, if I choose, face my fears and become a confident, outgoing, happy, secure man. Someone that others WANT to be around. It's going to take time and a lot of work. I know I am going to have to do a lot of scary things that I would rather not do. I have always avoided social situations... I get embarrassed at what others might think of me. I need to figure out how not to do that. More to the point, I need to figure out WHAT to DO, not what NOT to do.

 

So, it may sound as though I am throwing in the towel. I suppose at this point I am holding on to that towel and getting ready to toss it in. I am expecting that I WILL have to let go of the person I love. Perhaps I should have done this from the beginning and things would be different, perhaps not. I will go to counseling with an open mind, an open heart, and a desire to work. However, I will not go with expectations of resolving things in the way I wanted. In summary, I guess I am starting to ask myself what I really want. Do I want to stay in this marriage if it is making me miserable? NO... And right NOW, I am miserable. If my wife decides she wants to honestly WORK towards a new us, I will work with all of my heart. Sadly, I don't see that happening...

 

Not to end on a bad note... I am going to hang with a buddy tonight. I will go to the gym tomorrow. I am starting to think about those things that I have always wanted to do, but never could. This may sound freakish, but I think once I get back into shape and gain a little weight I want to go get a tattoo... hahaha... I have always wanted one, but never got one... because I worried what my family would think... Sure it might look silly when I'm 60, but I won't get anything that can't be covered with a tshirt... and it will look cool until then!

 

Oh yeah, I think I am also going to get my concealed carry permit.

 

Lots of things to work for that don't involve me sitting in front of my computer... Hehehe.. have a great day all... And thanks again FlyingHigh... sometimes us "grievers" can't see past the mountain of sorrow we've built for ourselves to realize the wonderful things we DO have.

[Delarocha]

So, I deserve whatever it is I get. I screwed up and feel so much regret and just plain stupid. Last night I left the house around 4pm to hang with a friend and grab a few beers. Well, after that he had to go home, so I went over to another friends house (around 7pm).. We talked and talked, and even though this person is a friend, it felt great that he understood what I am going through. We talked about his last relationship and just connected sharing things...

 

So anyway, a few beers turn into a few more... and we start playing video games and just hanging... Next thing I know it's 2:30 in the morning.

 

Now, I normally would always call my wife (especially since she is at home now) and let her know what I am doing and that I am ok. For some stupid reason with all the talk about myself, I got it in my head that I shouldn't call her.

 

She is furious with me. When I got home she was saying she doesn't want to go to therapy anymore. If I can't have the common courtesy to let her know I am ok, then it makes her know for sure what she wants.

 

This morning she is still really upset and mad at me. She says she WILL go to therapy, but I think I just broke the camels back.

 

I feel awful today... On one hand I finally connected with a friend I couldn't talk to before... On the other, I did something that seems to have finalized her thinking.. Maybe she was looking for just such an occasion to further justify an already made decision.

 

Anyway, I tried to explain that I was thinking about her, but just had it in my head that I should give her "space" by not calling. Stupid I know, and ridiculous, but I was not thinking clearly.

 

I feel like an idiot who is getting what he deserves today. I am sure she will ask for a divorce soon and I just wanted us to have SOME chance with a therapist... I fear I have blown that chance out of the water.

 

-Just down today...

[FlyingHigh]

Now, I normally would always call my wife (especially since she is at home now) and let her know what I am doing and that I am ok. For some stupid reason with all the talk about myself, I got it in my head that I shouldn't call her.

Gee wheez, Del! You men know how we women HATE it when you guys tell us you're gonna call and then don't!!! Get off your bootie and get her some I'M SORRY FLOWERS!!! NOWS!!!

 

I'll reply to the rest of your post later!!!

[Ladyjane14]

This isn't too much different from what I mentioned to you a few weeks ago. You seem to have a habit of overanalyzing and then making your decisions based on that analysis. YOU decided for her if she'd want a phone call or not. You didn't give her the opportunity to make that decision.

 

You can't take it back... but you can 'OWN' it. You've apologized, true... but that's generic. Now could be a great time to help her understand why you keep making this same mistake. You know, bring her in to the inner circle and help her see the flaw in your process.

 

If I haven't mentioned it before, you might want to type into your browser, "why women leave men, marriagebuilders", and read the article you find there. I think it will help you to build emotional intimacy.

 

Also, you might want to talk with your therapist a bit about anxiety. I'm an overly anxious person myself, so I know that sometimes our feelings of anxiety can lead us to explore every possible scenario in an effort to prevent bad things from happening. Add a fairly florid imagination, and next thing you know you're no longer just taking things in at face value, but rather trying to control anything which has the potential to create the unexpected.

[FlyingHigh]

LJ raised a good point that you should look into a little closer.

 

Your desire to "overanalyze" every scenario with some expected result has led you to become indecisive and contradictory to a point that you end up being a daisy petal picker when the time comes for you to make a decision.

 

Reread your 2:17 PM post, yesterday. You claim to be a lot of of things...

1.) I have an enormous ability to love and deserve to be loved. This is something I will never lose or mask because I fear getting hurt or being abandoned.

You claim you have an enormous ability to love and deserve to be loved...But when it comes down to the wire, you gotta be able to show love to those you profess to love! In other words, how can one deserve love when one does not know how to show love. One, being having the courtesy to "follow through". This is also about integrity, and showing it to the person who should matter most.

 

Funny how my stbx hubby used to proclaim so loudly how he was a man of "INTEGRITY", but he wasn't. A person of integrity does not need to proclaim integrity. Integrity is measure by one's character.

 

Again, reread your posts which many is about "YOU". It comes back to what I wrote earlier that while it is great to have "plans", they're nothing until they are put to use. It is just as pointless to finally come to an understanding about our shortcomings and what we can improve on, but won't "ADJUST" or make changes so that we won't repeat the same mistakes.

 

Your quote...

So, it may sound as though I am throwing in the towel. I suppose at this point I am holding on to that towel and getting ready to toss it in.

sums up how you have so far viewed yourself which reflected on your marriage. What you say and do has been contradictory at best and is yet to give you the response or results you expected. But what is certain is this. You're NOT happy! Your wife is NOT happy! Your marriage is falling apart right before your eyes and you STILL CAN'T figure it out! And when you feel you're at the end of your rope as in the NOT CALLING which you assume your wife will surely divorce you, you succumb to defeat!! You have already DECIDED that your wife is going to divorce you for it!!! Notice the immaturity in this, Del?

 

Get a grip! STOP assuming how your wife is going to react! STOP making decisions based on what she thinks by what you do! It's no wonder you're emotionally exhausted and defeated! You spend more time assuming and anticipating some expected future results which are ALL negative before they actually happen! Unless you've proven yourself that you're one heck of a fortune teller and you're pretty good at it, then do so! But since you claim to have no such gift, STOP ASSUMING the worse! My stbx used to do and still does! And I'm sooo glad, I don't have to put with it!

 

SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY is a very powerful thing. You keep expecting the worse and you'll get it twice over!!!

 

Perhaps, this marriage will be one of your life lessons to bear however it will turn out. Certainly, your wife will learn from it as well. We all do...eventually. I say eventually, because life is like a boomerang. The lesson you are supposed to learn will keep coming back until you get it right. Unfortunately, for some, they never get to see the lesson because they are too self absorbed to see it beyond themselves. Don't be one of them.

 

You've gotten pretty good advice so far. Start implementing them.

 

7.) Divorce does not mean I am tainted goods. I can't help the fact that I have failed in my marriage. I can't go back in time and change. However, I can be free again on my own and just be who I am. If somewhere down the line someone doesn't want to be near me because I have a big D in my loss column, then they are not worth much as a person.

Yes, divorce does not mean one is tainted nor does it define who we are. What defines us is how we rise above it based by the lesson and knowledge we gain from it.

 

Divorce only if you can look at the end of your marriage WITHOUT any regrets. As long as you have some or any regrets, you're not ready to throw in the towel. And IF you still want your marriage which you still do otherwise, you wouldn't be going to counseling, again, ASK yourself:

 

WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR MY MARRIAGE TO WORK? WHAT CAN I DO? WHAT IS MY ROLE IN THIS MARRIAGE?

 

BOTTOM LINE:

1. Your wife is still willing to go to counseling with you.

2. You've got SIX months.

 

Consider this a marriage project for the two of you and your marriage!

 

Now, you've got TWO choices:

1. You can continue contradicting yourself where you have DECIDED that your wife will divorce you no matter what you ASSUME you will do OR

2. Give your marriage ONE last shot!

 

Again, how YOU decide determines how you will answer this:

DIVORCE only IF you can look at ending your marriage WITHOUT any regrets.

[Delarocha]

Ladyjane14 and FlyingHigh,

Again today I have hit a "wow! moment". I decided rather than sit and be miserable at home, that I would get off my butt today and start DOING. All I can say about your posts is that I am truly amazed. I look back at some of the things I have written and thought and am in a way embarrassed, but I suppose we all go through these stages. (Or at the least others HAVE gone through the same types of things.)

 

About me not calling my wife. You're right! I made it about ME and what I THOUGHT she wanted. I have posted on here several times now how I should" expect to worst and then when the worst happens I will hurt less." Maybe not in those exact words, but the idea was certainly there.

 

So, today I went to the store to replace my running shoes and what do you know there is a bookstore right next door. Thinking about the books I have seen recommended on this board I walked in with the intent on skimming a few books for ideas. (This store lets you look at books while you buy a cup of coffee and decide if you want to buy it.) Well, I actually purchased three things: Divorce Busting by Michele Weiner-Davis, Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil, a pack of three moleskin notebooks and a pen. I then went to a local coffee shop, got myself a cup of coffee, and just started reading and taking notes. For the rest of this post I want to just kind of formalize my notes and some very important things I have realized.

 

I admittedly have not started much of the Dr. Phil book. I bought it primarily because the first chapter really spoke to me. He talked a lot about how the first part of the book would be about "getting real" with yourself. I think this book will be helpful in different ways and plan to read some more of it after this post.

 

As for Divorce Busting, I am currently only two chapters in, but am amazed at the insight and how close to home a LOT of this information is. So here goes with my notes:

 

*A traditional approach to clearing up problems that seems to not have worked that well in the past is attempting to understand and express feelings. Having explanations for WHY a problem exists does not necessarily allow one to solve those problems.

 

*Divorce Busting focuses on "Solution-Oriented Brief Therapy" which is task oriented. Small goals are set and if no progress is made in a short amount of time, new goals and strategies are set. Instead of focusing on the past, focus on the present and the future. "What do you want to become?" and "What steps are necessary to get there?" are the primary focus. This helps to focus less on an explanation of what is happening and why, and focus more on actual solutions. Determine what things to start doing more of and what things to eliminate and draft a plan. A key phrase I took from this idea is "Minor changes can make major differences" (Both personally and in a relationship) I want to change my life, not just understand why I am here.

 

*It's NEVER too late. Even a small amount of hope by either person can be the beginning of a new relationship. Even if ONLY ONE person in a relationship makes significant changes in their life, the relationship dynamic MUST therefore change. I can change the marriage by changing myself Sounds familiar huh?

 

*Divorce is NOT an answer to the unhappiness or emptiness we may feel in our lives and relationship. It should be considered a last resort when all other options are exhausted. It seems that there are two primary reasons for divorce: 1.) Escape relationship that is painful, loveless, or destructive 2.) Seek a more satisfying life with a new partner or alone. I think BOTH of these are clearly evident in the way my wife feels (and honestly how I have felt in some ways.) It seems that frequently these dreams do not materialize out of the blue just because of a divorce.

 

(At this point something I read triggered me to write a note to my wife. I made a realization about myself that I felt I should write down. I WILL share this with her at some point, but I feel I should compile more of my thoughts before handing in little bits at a time. What I wrote her (in my notebook) goes as follows: (Wife), I have used my emotions even as recently as this morning as a tool or maybe even a weapon against you. The intent was not to harm you, but I see now to manipulate you into feeling pity for me rather than the feeling invoked by an actual issue. None of this was consciously planned on my part, but I am truly sorry. Not continuing this behavior has become a bullet point in my list of goals.)

 

*Time does not heal all wounds. If we do not face our issues some things will hurt as bad in ten years as they do today. Unrealistic expectations about relationships are the viruses in unhealthy marriages. So, identify those expectations and learn how to deal with them.

 

*"If I expect the worst I won't be disappointed." WRONG. "We fear the worst, we expect the worst, we invite the worst" I made the assumption that this marriage is already over. A side effect of that is me doing things like NOT calling my wife because I assume she does not want me to. I have been expecting the worst and projecting that feeling. Franklin D. Roosevelt said, "Some people see things as they are and ask 'why?' Others see things as they COULD be and ask 'Why not?'" I have gone about things in a completely unhealthy manner. Expectations are good! Even if only on the part of ONE person they CAN change lives.

 

-------------------------

 

OK, Soooooooo... that is not ALL of my notes, but I suppose you can buy the book if you want more. I just felt all of this things strongly enough to write them down and figure out how they apply to ME. I am now carrying three different moleskin notebooks. One will be used for taking notes from reading Divorce Busting. One will be used for taking notes from Dr. Phil's book. And one will be used to reorganize some daily living things in my life. (Think of it as a low tech personal non-digital assistant.)

 

All in all... today started HORRIBLY but I feel great at the moment. I finally feel like I am DOING something about this situation. Instead of analyzing the things in my head, I am reading what professionals have to say and trying to apply those ideas to my own situation.

 

I have said it before and I will continue to say it over and over... THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!! Everyone reading and/or posting in here. I cannot say that my marriage will work. BUT, I felt in my gut that having hope and some expectations was a good thing. Somehow I convinced myself that this was wrong.

 

I do have a question now. As I learn these things about myself, and I make changes... Do I talk about these things at all with my wife? I mean I will not initiate conversations at this time, but I am unsure as to HOW much I should share with her. I will leave these books in my folder and if she's curious what is in there she is welcome to read them. I just don't think leaving them around, etc.. is a great strategy, but I honestly don't know. Thoughts on that?

[LakesideDream]

Read your other posts... wow you are a wuss. I bet you were in a lot of pain when your spine was surgically removed.

 

Enjoy your pity pit!

[Delarocha]

Read your other posts... wow you are a wuss. I bet you were in a lot of pain when your spine was surgically removed.

 

Enjoy your pity pit!

 

Very constructive... I can tell from your post you're not only a scholar but you exude emotional stability. Perhaps you could waste your time trolling elsewhere if you have nothing productive to add.

 

Hope you're happy attempting to make me look like an ass. You only succeeded in looking like a dick. Congrats.

[PWSX3]

My suggestion is to read the books, don't worry if your stbx reads the books or not. Remember whatever you do you are doing for yourself and not for anyone else.

When you do something for someone else you are doing it for the wrong reason and the only thing it will do is make you angery inside, which in turn will show anger on the outside.

 

When you start reading and understanding and start changing then that is when your stbx will notice, you don't have to tell her anything that you are reading let it SHOW thru your actions, she will see it!!!!

 

Reading is a good thing, but you can read all the books you want to do on anything such as losing weight, but until you get out and do the hard work of exercising and doing what it takes to lose the weight the book doesn't do you a bet of good.

[FlyingHigh]

I do have a question now. As I learn these things about myself, and I make changes... Do I talk about these things at all with my wife? I mean I will not initiate conversations at this time, but I am unsure as to HOW much I should share with her. I will leave these books in my folder and if she's curious what is in there she is welcome to read them. I just don't think leaving them around, etc.. is a great strategy, but I honestly don't know. Thoughts on that?

This can be a judgement call depending how your wife views "self-help" books in conjunction to your marital discord and personality differences. It could go either way. The question is how does your wife see "self-help" books? If she's one to turn her nose down on it, I wouldn't put it on the coffee display right off the bat otherwise she'll think you've gone the deep end. You can casually just mention that you happen to go to a bookstore and came across these books and draw similarities of what you read/learned, the impact it had on you and how it made you look at yourself and your marriage in a new and different light. With this approach, it's subtle and may raise an eyebrow a little. But it will indicate to her that you are making an effort in improving for yourself. It may be initiate conversation on your marriage. In orther words, like religion, don't shove it down her throat.

 

If she's into self help books, then share it with her but with caution. You don't want her to feel that she's the one with the "problem". Approach it in the same manner as if she weren't really into self-help books. Kinda like a "by the way" approach. You can say, "I came across these books...and read a few pages and read the part about....and it made me think about you, and us. I thought it was real interesting and thought maybe it you'd find it interesting as well. I'll leave it.....just in case you want to browse through..." Again, as in religion and politics, don't shove it down her throat. All you're doing is just waving it a little just to get her interested. And if she's not, leave it at that. She'll browse through it when you're not around looking...

 

Final advise....don't become too obsessed with self-help books. My stbxh read A LOT of self-help books. I didn't. My personal opinion?....Well...don't want to start a thread on it....

 

My personal advice on on self-help books...don't become too dependent on them to guide you. Many of what you already know are pretty much common sense, partly gut feeling, partly treating people the way you would like to be treated, ongoing learning process, and paying attention to those life lessons. What makes it tough is that emotions get in the way of making sensible/rational decisions. Hence....self-help books.

[Delarocha]

My personal advice on on self-help books...don't become too dependent on them to guide you. Many of what you already know are pretty much common sense, partly gut feeling, partly treating people the way you would like to be treated, ongoing learning process, and paying attention to those life lessons. What makes it tough is that emotions get in the way of making sensible/rational decisions. Hence....self-help books.

 

FH, thanks for the advice... This is kind of the approach I have taken...

 

Interesting that you mention becoming reliant on self-help books. I actually am starting to think that either way my marriage turns out that some of these books may really help me to think about life in a different way.

I actually have another book ordered called the Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. It seemed to be highly recommended, and I thought I may as well focus on that CLEAR lack in myself. I guess I look at it this way, if a book can reduce the number of times I have to go to therapy (my OWN therapy, not couples) than it's worth every penny. If a book can improve the effectiveness of my own therapy than it's worth every penny.

 

So, I will take your advice and try not to become a brainless zombie of better living. For now, they seem to really help me think... Some of the stuff applies some doesn't...

 

-------------------------------------

 

Anyway, it's interesting the perspectives I have gained reading. I feel more in control of my own situation than ever, and at the same time feel more loss than ever. My wife is getting ready to leave for her job (new job) this morning and says, "I think after our session on Thurs. we should go to dinner somewhere so we can talk and not get emotional. I think someplace public will help us to talk more rationally and not cry." Man oh man, I cannot help but think of the movie Jerry Maguire... My imagination says she wants to talk someplace in public so she can say she has decided on divorce and I won't get upset. I guess if THAT is her decision it means she has already made up her mind, and therapy is just a waste of money anyway. Not too nice considering I would have hoped she would at least TRY. I mean her just saying, "so we won't cry" kind of implies we will have something to cry about. I want to say it's just my mind running away with thoughts, but it seems awfully telling. I will, however, remain strong and positive until I know for sure otherwise.

 

Oh well, I suppose I just have to wait and see and not read into stuff so much, but it's hard considering. For now, I will continue to be supportive, understanding, forgiving, and proud of my actions around her. I certainly have not been that all the time in the past.

[FlyingHigh]

Anyway, it's interesting the perspectives I have gained reading. I feel more in control of my own situation than ever, and at the same time feel more loss than ever.

Then continue reading them. Everyone is different. My stbxh had a library of self-help books but didn't apply any in his personal life. Heck, he even spent hundreds of dollars for weekend seminars called the Sterling Institute, an all male cult 3 day getaway where they are shut from the world and then strip naked in the end to celebrate all video taped....go figure....

 

By the way, did you go out and get her "I'm sorry for not calling" flowers? You didn't, did you?.... You men should do this more often. It may help you guys think twice about repeating the same mistake over. Flowers can get expensive overtime....doesn't it? But then again, it loses the meaning of receiving them repeatedly when guys keep repeating the same mistake....sigh:)

 

My wife is getting ready to leave for her job (new job) this morning and says, "I think after our session on Thurs. we should go to dinner somewhere so we can talk and not get emotional. I think someplace public will help us to talk more rationally and not cry."

Why bother? Why bother go "someplace public" to end the marriage. It appears that in her mind that you'll go nutso on her. It's as if you're the emotional, can't handle bad news kinda a guy. Personally, if I were her that would be the one reason for wanting to do call it quits in public. So that it's easier for her to walk away and NOT see you breakdown.

 

SO, if you are more "in control" why let her? Think about it, Del. WHY give her the final gratification? IF this is what you THINK that she will end it in public, ASK HER?!! This is THE part where you need to excercise some strength. So verify it with her if this is the only reason why you two are meeting in public? And if this is the case, TURN THE TABLE ON HER!!! How?

 

Tell her calmly AND confidently without breaking down: "If the only reason you want us to meet in public is for you to tell me you want a divorce, there's no need to do it that way. If divorce is what you want, I will give it to you. It's not what I want, but I can't stop you. I will give it to you. Let me know WHEN and HOW you would like to arrange disubursements of what we own in writing and I'll look at them and get back with you."

 

Of course....I'm sure, you'll break down after. But once the tears are dried and you pulled yourself together, this action/approach is quite the opposite of what she expects you'd do. And sometimes, it may even make her think twice about what she's doing. Maybe.... BUT, in her eyes, she is hearing and seeing someone else different, someone stronger and in control. And that's exactly what most of us women want to see.

 

My imagination says she wants to talk someplace in public so she can say she has decided on divorce and I won't get upset. I guess if THAT is her decision it means she has already made up her mind, and therapy is just a waste of money anyway. Not too nice considering I would have hoped she would at least TRY. I mean her just saying, "so we won't cry" kind of implies we will have something to cry about. I want to say it's just my mind running away with thoughts, but it seems awfully telling. I will, however, remain strong and positive until I know for sure otherwise.

Notice how you continue to keep assuming?!! Reread what I just wrote and my previous reply. Stop assuming. This is where you get yourself in trouble.

1. You overanlyze every little thing
   
2. Because you overanalyze every little thing you start assuming
   
3. Once you start assuming, you start predicting what she might say or do
   
4. Then once you start predicting what her reaction might be, you frantically try to figure out what your next move IS or will be
   
5. Then once you start figuring out what you next move will be, you find yourself back at #1...you start overanalying your next move....

Notice the vicious cycle in your thought process?

 

When one assumes, one has already made the decision for the other person.

 

When one assumes, one FEARS.

 

When one assumes, 99.9% of what they assume is incorrect.

 

 

I will, however, remain strong and positive until I know for sure otherwise.

JUST ASK!!! Ask in advance befor the meeting. Why bother waiting for her to drop the bomb?

 

Oh well, I suppose I just have to wait and see and not read into stuff so much, but it's hard considering. For now, I will continue to be supportive, understanding, forgiving, and proud of my actions around her. I certainly have not been that all the time in the past.

Notice how you continue to contradict yourself? Frankly, if I were her and this has been your MO, I'd have to say that perhaps, she might be better off without you.... Sorry Del, but I see a lot of you in my stbxh who many times was very indecisive, contradictory and ALWAYS ASSUMED what I would say and do! He rarely asked what I thought. It bugged the heck out of me that I ended up being the stronger of the two. To be quite honest, women tend to lose respect for men who come across as "weak" so to speak.

 

Your wife already views you as somewhat "emotional". A reason perhaps why she wants to meet in public. This speaks volume. Think about it....

[Delarocha]

I do see the cycles and patterns, which is precisely why I play with ideas here . Believe me I see that I am not only perceived as weak, but that I have been. The only thing I can do is grow stronger each day.

 

My post came literally moments after hearing what she had to say. I analyze and try to make decisions, because at that moment (right before her new job begins) was the wrong time to ask more questions. So I shouldn't have analyzed.

 

At this point I wait. I see how our therapy session goes, and I continue to think about myself.

 

I know you all look at me as sniveling and weak, and maybe you're right. The day for me being strong may not be here yet, but I will figure it out. Maybe my spine HAS been removed, but by nobody but myself. I have somehow equated treating people nice with letting people get whatever they want and walk all over me. The day for that to end will come.

 

The worst part is I have let unacceptable behavior be completely forgiven because of my own insecurity and fear. What a way to live your life, huh?

 

Maybe I am weak today, but tomorrow I will be stronger. The day after that will be better than tomorrow. I'm so sick of feeling sorry for myself, walking around trying to fix myself, and trying to fix everything in my life that's wrong.

 

Time to find out what reality is and react accordingly. I guess avoiding it just isn't going to work... Maybe this new backbone can grow into something a tad bigger than the uncooked spaghetti noodle I currently have. HA...

 

(Don't mistake my words for self-pity or loathing... I guess we look in the mirror and sometimes see what we want to see. Sometimes it helps to see yourself as others do.)

[FlyingHigh]

The worst part is I have let unacceptable behavior be completely forgiven because of my own insecurity and fear. What a way to live your life, huh?

You've allowed it because part of your nature is to "please". The downside to being a "people pleaser" as it was with my stbxh (which I've told him and finally acknowledged it years later) is that you end up compromising your self worth and happiness. Furthermore, being a "people pleaser", those who receive your kindness don't see this as you being nice and accomodating. Rather, they see it as a weakness and they WILL take advantage of you. Sad? Absolutely! The lesson behind this? Accept that it's okay to say "no" even to those you love.

 

I know you all look at me as sniveling and weak, and maybe you're right. The day for me being strong may not be here yet, but I will figure it out. Maybe my spine HAS been removed, but by nobody but myself. I have somehow equated treating people nice with letting people get whatever they want and walk all over me. The day for that to end will come.

It takes a bigger person to admit this. Consider this a "start" to a better path for you regardless if divorce is the outcome.

 

Often, it requires some traumatic experience to show us the "light". We all go through it. It just so happens that perhaps it's now your turn.

 

As long as you keep improving, and "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" (here's a book you might want to browse through).

 

Life will play out the way they're supposed to...in the end.

 

So for now, LIVE! Start doing things you find enjoyable and keep learning. Reinvent yourself. You might surprise yourself.

[Delarocha]

Well, I am getting ready to walk out the door and meet up with my wife for our first counseling session. I certainly hope that there are more to follow, but I don't feel it's right to hold that expectation over my wife's head. If she agrees to more, I will certainly take the lead in scheduling.

 

Anyway, I don't really know what to expect. I know it will most likely be an introductory type meeting, but I am bringing my scribble pad with me. I have a lot of notes in there, but don't plan on using them. I just want to speak from my heart. To be honest, I am anxious because I know tonight will be somewhat painful. However, I think we all know I've let fear rule my life for way too long. I know that my hope is something that doesn't seem to be working in a few ways. I don't know this for sure, but intuition tells me that having (and showing) too much hope can put an undue amount of pressure on my wife. She doesn't know if she wants to work for more, what she does know is she doesn't feel romantic love for me anymore. However, she does know she loves me (as a friend anyway) and cares about my feelings. For now it would be enough to know if she at least wishes she had intimate romantic feelings for me. Again, I don't expect those things, but I have found myself self-fulfilling every bad thing in my life. So, what I've been doing up to this point hasn't been working... Time to trying something new... anything new...

 

Wish me luck... My new spine is still pretty small... but for tonight, it will have to do.

 

 

On a side note, LakesideDream: I know my reaction to your post in here was defensive. I've been doing a LOT of thinking about your statements (obviously) and sometimes we don't like it when the truth smacks us in the face. So, I just wanted to say two things.. 1.) You were right. It's time to face facts and either grow into a man or don't, there really isn't a middle ground. 2.) I am sorry I reacted the way I did.

[FlyingHigh]

Del,

 

Whether it's counseling or a date with someone new, RELAX!!! No one is going to take an axe on you!!

 

Consider this:

 

LIFE IS LIKE A BOX OF CHOCOLATE. ITS FULL OF SURPRISES. YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU'LL GET UNTIL YOU BITE INTO IT.

 

Start approaching life this way because it will take much of the guessing, assumptions and expectations away doesn't it? And when you approach life like a box of chocolate, you really get to enjoy every bite you sink your teeth into, doesn't it? The reward? You will feel so much more at peace and free. And you will enjoy life more in the process.

 

Try it.

[Delarocha]

Start approaching life this way because it will take much of the guessing, assumptions and expectations away doesn't it? And when you approach life like a box of chocolate, you really get to enjoy every bite you sink your teeth into, doesn't it? The reward? You will feel so much more at peace and free. And you will enjoy life more in the process.

 

Try it.

 

FlyingHigh, thanks. Last night was very hard from the sense that I finally saw the beginning of the end. To be honest both my wife (or maybe stbxw) and I both felt as if it was kind of a waste of money. As of late I feel like I am finally able to just BE myself, and be comfortable in my own skin. It's amazing how freeing (in many ways) this whole experience has been. Due in a large part to me becoming a WHOLE hell of a lot better at actually dealing with my emotions and controlling my own path, we have absolutely no problem communicating anymore.

 

This morning I got a few things off my chest while my wife was getting ready for work. In as light a manner as possible and with no accusations, I told her in a way I expected when we talk this Sat. that she will ask me for a divorce. She explained that is not her thinking, or her next step. I then explained WHY I said that. I wanted her to know that the reason she has seen me as weak and unable to handle reality was, that I HAVE been (past tense) weak and unable to handle reality. I wanted her to know that no matter what she tells me I can handle it and am strong now. Do I think I'm done growing and becoming stronger physically or emotionally? Absolutely not! BUT, I do know that I am not desperate anymore. I WANT her to tell me exactly what she feels without fearing the scared and thin-skinned me of old. I explained to her I KNOW that is asking a lot, but the only thing I can do is show her that strength and continue getting stronger. As she left for work I gave her a hug and told her I think she is an amazing person and no matter what happens between us, I will ALWAYS think so. I told her to smile.

 

So, I am ready to say something I have WANTED to say for a while now. I said it last night to her, and meant it. It felt WONDERFUL to hear it coming from my lips and know it was true. This may not seem like a big step to anyone else, but for me it's a giant leap. Here goes:

 

I'm ready to move on with my life, with or without my wife. I'm ready to be happy and make others around me happy. I'm ready to use my strengths to help others and help myself. I will always have weaknesses, but I will not always let them control me. I'm ready to be a man.

 

Back to your original point of relaxing. I am amazed how relaxed I feel at the moment. It's not that I've accepted that I am tied to the tracks and the train is coming to end it all. I guess I have realized that I'm not tied up, hell I'm not even standing on the tracks. Haha, maybe at the moment my house and car are on those tracks, but I'm 28 years old... I have a good job... Whatever happens I will learn to be happy on my own, with friends, possible with someone else... I will recover.

 

Everyone is right that time helps heal wounds. However, time alone does nothing. I have always been the kind of person that could feel the pain of loss YEARS later, out of the blue. I guess buried problems always have a way of wriggling their way back to the surface. Something right now is very different, and when I look in the mirror I see what that something is.

 

Is that.... ? Could it be.... ? Do I feel a hint of self-esteem and even... ... ... joy and zest for life? Wow, I do... how'd that feeling come out of a night where I felt nothing but sad?

 

I guess sleeping on "it" proved an effective way of hearing what my own heart has to say.

[FlyingHigh]

As of late I feel like I am finally able to just BE myself, and be comfortable in my own skin. It's amazing how freeing (in many ways) this whole experience has been. Due in a large part to me becoming a WHOLE hell of a lot better at actually dealing with my emotions and controlling my own path, we have absolutely no problem communicating anymore.

Bravo Del!

 

Part of you getting to this point has been largely due to:

 

1) Acknowledging your shortcomings.

For many people when faced with a dilemma, this can be the most difficult to do because it is an "admission" in itself that they are the ones with the problem EVEN if the problem was ignited by some outside force. WE ALL have our own individual shortcomings or flaws. HOW we deal with them is entirely up to us. We can deal with them as they come or ignore them until the resurface again.

 

2) Once you acknowledged your shortcomings, you adjusted your behavior.

 

3) And when you adjusted your behavior/approach,you learned to develop a better understanding of yourself.

 

The end result? You are already starting to feel better.

 

. Do I think I'm done growing and becoming stronger physically or emotionally? Absolutely not!

GROWING is both optional and SHOULD NEVER stop! Whether at 28, 68 or 98, growing should not stop.

 

TO STOP GROWING IS TO STOP LIVING.

 

Whatever happens I will learn to be happy on my own, with friends, possible with someone else... I will recover.

And you will...

 

Accept and understand that not ALL relationships/marriages are meant to last a lifetime. Some relationships last 3 months, 3 years or 30 years. And yes, there ARE relationships that do last a lifetime.

 

Your marriage was not meant to last a lifetime. BUT, had you not had this marriage, you might not otherwise had the opportunity to learn about yourself. Accept and appreciate that your wife came into your life for a purpose as you did in hers. And that was to learn. What you will take from this experience will be more valuable than you can imagine.

 

You ARE already seeing the rewards. You ARE "living" it.