Mixed Signals

[maynicholas]

HI All,

 

So I may be a typical 'time to give up and let it go' or maybe it's all just a matter of re-examining my perspective. Either way I need some serious advise...

 

My boyfriend and I have been together for 10 years. We were college sweet hearts but have been together since graduating in 1999. I am now 29 and ready to get married. He says he isn't. I have been putting a lot of pressure on him to get married and I know it's not helping.

 

We went to the mall a few months ago and went to all the jewelry stores and tried on rings (his idea- not mine). He says he doesn't want to get married- but when that happened I thought FINALLY! But that was months ago and he is back to saying he doesn't want to.

 

Some days he will entertain the idea and we will discuss a possible wedding- other days- it's "I said I don't want to get married". His reasons are- he doesn't want to become another divorce statistic, he doesn't want the responsibility that comes with being married, and he isn't sure he ever wants kids. His parents are going through a divorce right now- and I am sure that can't be easy on him- and I know it is having a major effect on his view of marriage (they have been married for 29 years). He says he wants to be with me- just not married- only to be divorced in 15 years. "Why can't we be together and not married?" "Marriage ruins a relationship and puts too much stress on it."

 

Sometimes he plays along with my 'wedding planning' scenarios- we'll discuss places, people, music... blah, blah, blah... he just keeps going back and forth. I don't know what to do. I can't imagine my life without him- but I want to know that he is commited to me for life. I want to feel like a team- not a boyfriend and a girlfriend who happen to be going along together untill something changes.

 

He has this dream of playing music and he feels that marriage will mean he has to give it up and be responsible and support a family. Well I am getting ready to go to graduate school and get a PhD so I can have a good enough job in the long run to support a family- so I don't expect that from him- and I've told him this. He thinks that it isn't fair to me to sacrifice my dreams so he can follow his- but that is something I would do with or without him, so there is no sacrifice involved for me. And since I'll be in grad school for the next 6-7 years- there is no trying to make babies for a while...

 

I am so frustrated. Other than this our relationship is solid- I am just looking for the security of knowing that he has my back and I have his for always- not just till something better comes... Thoughts please...

[Guest]

wow...that's tough. it seems that his indecision is coming from those mixed signals...how do u know what to do when one day, its YES marriage, the next, can't because my future, then back and forth - i would find it hard because if the changes keep happening that way, he will be either loved for doiong so, or resented for holding someone back.

 

and i am curious, it sounds like u are saying when u are 'just' bf/gf it is acceptable to just walk away when u feel like it but that somehow a piece of paper means u would stay when things get rough

 

can anyone explain this?

 

interesting vibe coming across this evening - sort of clinical..hmmm

[maynicholas]

I reposted this in the Marriage forum... I think it fits better over there... sorry:eek:

[maynicholas]

and i am curious, it sounds like u are saying when u are 'just' bf/gf it is acceptable to just walk away when u feel like it but that somehow a piece of paper means u would stay when things get rough

 

 

 

Well I feel like by getting married you have chosen to take the relationship to another level. One that is stronger because you have made the permanent commitment to each other. By being bf/ gf- to me- means that it may be a good relationship, but it wasn't good enough to make permanent so you can walk away if it isn't working.

 

I said to him if he is so scared of ending up divorced in 15 years- then he must think we are doomed for failure- so why continue? And if he wanted to stay bf/ gf that long does he really think it would hurt any less if it ended just because we aren't married?

[Guest]

and i am curious, it sounds like u are saying when u are 'just' bf/gf it is acceptable to just walk away when u feel like it but that somehow a piece of paper means u would stay when things get rough

 

can anyone explain this?

 

Well, the major difference is that you really don't have a committment to a boyfriend/girlfriend. A marriage is a committment. The important part is that promise, not the piece of paper.

[maynicholas]

Exactly...

 

 

Anyone else have any thoughts on my situation?

[adnCat]

I think that a commitment to a BF/GF can be as strong as a commitment between a married couple. I think for my BF and I, getting married, if we do, will not mean more commitment. It will mean equal commitment. This does not mean that I think marriage is a useless piece of paper. For me it means merging lives and goals, with just as much commitment to one another as before the marriage. For instance, my boyfriend and I will not live together or have children before marriage. We are very committed as is and marriage will not change that.

 

Marriage might be just a piece of paper to one couple, and the world to another. It isn't a black and white issue.

 

May- You are in a difficult situation. Clearly, you love this man enough to want to marry him, and he seems into you enough to stick around for 10 years. (Although I had a question about that- you say you've been together since 1999, but it isn't quite 2009 yet. You'd really be on year 7 or 8 if you've been together since 1999.)

 

Unfortunately, if he is beating around the bush and flip flopping on the issue all the time, you've got to determine some length of time that you are will to put up with this fickle behavior. I'm not saying break up with him now. I'm saying, assess your life and your goals. Figure out how much longer you are willing to wait. Give yourself plenty of time. If you say 6 months, chances are the 6 months will come and go and you'll end up giving yourself another 6 months. You guys have been together for 7-10 years already! If he isn't sure now, when is he going to be?

 

Figure out a date. Then have one more talk about this with him about this. Tell him you won't bring it up after this, that you love him, but you can't wait forever. Ask him if he isn't sure about it after 7-10 years, will he ever be sure? Don't be surprised if he won't address this directly, and he says something like "I'm not sure if/when I'll be sure." That's fine. Just make it clear that marriage is something you want and you won't wait forever. Don't impose him with any kind of time line. This isn't an ultimatum. You are just letting him know your needs.

 

Now leave the issue alone until your date comes! I know, it's hard! But really try to lay off. In the meantime, I suggest getting a life. I don't mean that as an insult, but I mean to say that you should really try to enrich your life outside of your relationship. Let him know that the world does not revolve around him.

 

Are you currently living with him? How often do you see one another?

[princessa]

There was a show on Dr Phil yesterday about the exact same issue. This woman was going out with this dude for I think 6 years or so, and wanted to get married. He kept telling her he wasn't ready and gave the same "I don't wanna be part of the divorce stats" excuse to her. She loved him, cooked, cleaned, helped him raise his daughter, basically it's like they were already married. He kept telling her that he wanted a better job and better financial stability before he's able to get married. She just didn't get it.

 

Basically the conclusion of the show was that, you either want to get married, or you don't, and it's that simple. Phil said that it's perfectly fine for a man not to want to enjoy a non-married life. If he doesn't want to get married, then you can't force him. And in any canse you DONT want to marry somebody who doesn't want to marry you! So the woman saw that the only way she could deal with this was to give the guy an ultimatum. She couldn't let him drag her along for much longer, because it was important in her life to be married. So she had to tell him that either he would marry her, or she would look for somebody else who would. And it's true, you shouldn't compromise your own life's plans for a guy whose plans aren't compatible with yours. Now if the guy thinks about it, and he'd rather marry you than lose you, then you'll have your answer.

[maynicholas]

Thanks for the replys!

 

Well for the first question... We got together in 1996 while we were in college- and have been together since. We have been out of college since 1999- I had phrased it like that because in college you don't know what you want and we had no idea when we got together that we would still be together 10 years later. Neither one of us took the relationship too seriously in school. That isn't to say we strayed- we were just together- no plans for the future. So I feel like we went to a more serious level we got out of school and still chose to remain together. That's all.

 

As for the set a date thing... I did that. Last January at New Years I said to him- ok- this coming October makes 10 years for us. I want to get married. You have till then to decide if that is what you want and if you don't know by then, I will do what I need to do for me from there on out. After that I dropped it and never said a word. Well October came and went and there was no proposal. That is when I decided to go to graduate school. I am moving to another state to do so. I have told him that I absolutely want him to be there, but that I won't force him to go since I don't want him to resent me for making him move.

 

At the same time I don't want him to move with me if he has no intentions of ever marrying me. If marriage really isn't something he is interested in- well I need a clean break. I will honestly never be satisfied with a bf/ gf relationship. This is probably selfish of me but I feel a certain level of validity in a marriage that I don't feel in a bf/ gf relationship.

 

I am planning on moving in July. Do I talk to him more or let it go? I feel as though I am already trying to distance myself from him in my heart because it kills me to imagine that after all this time the man I love- whom I feel like we think on the same level about life, friends, our families, our sense of humor, finishing each others thoughts- could really be so far away from me, almost like a stranger, on this one thing. That he would really be will to let me go...

[maynicholas]

Oh- and we do live together...

[maynicholas]

How do I know if he is legitimately indecisive- or just stringing me along because he can? My friends say he is stringing me along- but I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt (I truely believe he would never do that- could I be highly mistaken?) How do I know???... thoughts please?

[ShoeGirl]

If I were you I would sit down with him soon and lay it out for him... you are leaving in July and he has two options, go with you with the understanding that you expect engagement to follow or he can stay where you are now and you will go on with your life.

 

I can see how his parents divorce could be making him not believe in marriage, maybe if he knows what happened to their marriage he can either see that what happened to them will not happen with you or he can work on it so that it doesn't.

[adnCat]

If I were you I would sit down with him soon and lay it out for him... you are leaving in July and he has two options, go with you with the understanding that you expect engagement to follow or he can stay where you are now and you will go on with your life.

 

Sorry, I don't think is the right course of action to take. You already played this game. You told him last time that October was it. And now it is past October... and you've basically given him an extension until July. Yes, you decided to go to grad school, but now you are asking him to please come along. All you've got now is ultimatums and empty threats. He really thinks he can keep things as they are forever-n-ever, appeasing you every once in a while with wedding talk and ring shopping.

 

I don't think you should have been open with your deadline, because he tested it and found out it wasn't real. But what's done is done.

 

At the same time I don't want him to move with me if he has no intentions of ever marrying me. If marriage really isn't something he is interested in- well I need a clean break. I will honestly never be satisfied with a bf/ gf relationship. This is probably selfish of me but I feel a certain level of validity in a marriage that I don't feel in a bf/ gf relationship.

 

You are not being selfish here. It is that important to you, so you are right in wanting it and insisting on it.

 

You already live with him, and I don't know what your other options are in terms of housing, but if you told him October, you should have been looking for places in September in case it didn't happen.

 

If you have any options, I would leave now. I really hate to say it, but it's something you should have done in October. It sounds harsh, but you don't want to be with him if he isn't sure about marriage after 10 years, right?

 

If you do leave, and I suggest you do, be matter of fact about it. Tell him: "I've wanted to get married for quite a while now. Clearly, you are not ready for this. The problem is, I can't wait for you any longer. Please don't contact me for the next month, because this isn't up for discussion; it's just a decision I am making about my life. If you are ready to be engaged anytime soon, hopefully I will still be available."

 

This will either get him to propose in a month (if he really does want to marry you), or give him the freedom from you that he has wanted but didn't have the heart to tell you. It doesn't seem like it, but really, both outcomes are good for you. You said yourself that you don't want him around if he has no intentions of marrying you. Be prepared for the possibility that he might be engaged to someone else within 6 months. If this happens, it means that you just weren't the one for him. It does NOT mean that you did all the work "breaking him in" and some other girl got the prize. I don't think guys work like that.

 

Get a copy of "closing the deal: how to go from single miss to wedded bliss" and read the chapters about "the bluff" and "cutting bait."

 

I know this is hard to hear. I posted at a forum with a similar problem, and some people were telling me to leave now. If he isn't ready after 8 years, than he won't be ready anytime soon. Some people were telling me to set a deadline. Some people were telling me to issue an ultimatum. I didn't like it and got kind of defensive. I thought I would hear advice like "here is a surefire way to get him to propose." Obviously, my head was in the clouds.

 

But I've taken their advice and set a deadline- August 31, 2007. See, I even have an exact date that I will end it. It's a friday, and I usually see him on fridays. The only flaw in this plan is if he is ready to propose by August 31st, like if he has a ring already. But I figure the chances are so slim that the timing will be just so. I will keep my spy eye out for hard evidence of the ring, and cross that bridge if we ever get to it. Otherwise, I'm done on August 31st. I've been saving up money and I'll be ready to buy my own place. I don't live with him, but I'll be buying a few hours away from him, and he knows I think of homebuying as a long term investment. It won't be for show; I'll be starting my life without him. If he happens to come back with a proposal after a month of no-contact, than he'll have to come back on my terms to my home.

 

Keep us updated on what you decide. As someone in a similar situation, I'm curious to know how this turns out.

[maynicholas]

I can't move out before my move in July- that would cost more money than I can spare. And I'm not making the big move till then because I am taking classes where I am now.

 

I hate how mad I get about this whole situation. I probably need to stop bringing it up with him because in the end I just get mad and resentful towards him. I just keep feeling like if I can just make the right argument for marriage to him, then he would see that it doesn't always end badly. I mean my parents have been married for 32 years- and it hasn't always been sunshine and flowers- but they work through any problems and move on and grow.

 

I just don't know what else to say... I can't imagine my life without him. Am I just acting like a spoiled child who can't have their own way? That is what he always says about the matter.

 

I mean a commitment ceremony would work for me too if it is the 'wedding' thing that gets him. It's not the legal bit of paper- it is the commitment.

 

aaaahhhhhh...

[adnCat]

I can't move out before my move in July- that would cost more money than I can spare. And I'm not making the big move till then because I am taking classes where I am now.

 

I hate how mad I get about this whole situation. I probably need to stop bringing it up with him because in the end I just get mad and resentful towards him. I just keep feeling like if I can just make the right argument for marriage to him, then he would see that it doesn't always end badly. I mean my parents have been married for 32 years- and it hasn't always been sunshine and flowers- but they work through any problems and move on and grow.

 

I just don't know what else to say... I can't imagine my life without him. Am I just acting like a spoiled child who can't have their own way? That is what he always says about the matter.

 

I mean a commitment ceremony would work for me too if it is the 'wedding' thing that gets him. It's not the legal bit of paper- it is the commitment.

 

aaaahhhhhh...

 

 

Hmm, since you are living with him and can't get out of it, your situation is even stickier. It would be way to weird to end it and still be living together. So it's a no go on that idea until July. Maybe you should make your new date in July...

 

Of course it is hard to imagine life without him- he's been there for the last 10 years!

 

If his reasons for not wanting marriage have to do with divorce statistics, than a commitment ceremony could be the solution. It definitely gets around his problem. If he still doesn't even want to do that, you really should consider your needs. Also, make sure you aren't just convincing yourself that a commitment ceremony is good enough if what you really want is marriage. Don't cheat yourself, and don't ever settle for less than what you really really want.

 

In the meantime (between now and July) really try your hardest to keep it out of your mind and your conversations with him. I know this is so much easier said than done. Actually, my outlet for this kind of stuff has been forums. I really can't stop thinking about the situation, but I keep it out of our conversations by spewing all my thoughts about it here. We have more fun together when he isn't feeling harassed about the issue. And if it ends up that I leave him in August, I will be happy about the good times we've had between now and August, and not resentful that he wouldn't meet my needs. If August comes around and I end up leaving, I will not resent him, because it was my choice to stay until August. If he ends up proposing before then, I will be happy that it finally happened, and that it really happened without my constant prodding.

 

So what is your plan? Any thoughts or decisions?

[norajane]

I agree that it's best to stop talking about this with him now. You did a great thing to choose to go to grad school. He knows you want to get married, he knows you're leaving in July, and he knows he either needs to step up to the plate or you'll be gone without him.

 

Spend the next 6 months preparing for your move without talking about marriage. Stay very calm and determined to do the best for your future, but proceed as though he's already made his decision...because he kinda did by blowing your October deadline. You've already had many conversations about this, so act as though you've accepted his decision and are preparing to move on.

 

When he sees that, it will bring it home to him that you're not going to wait around forever.

[Love Hurts]

Ten years of being together. He is married....... without the responsibility and commitment that marriage brings.

 

He can pick up and go when he wants.

No legal strings attached.

 

Unless his love for you is greater than his fear of responsibility: when and if you leave (to further your education) there’s your divorce.

 

Bottom line you two are in a friend with benefits relationship.

No commitment. Yes love is in the equation ……..but not true love.

 

He has maintained his decision to keep his safety net.

How cozy and comfortable is that in this day and age………when most marriages end up in divorce, alimony and child support payments crunching the bank account.

 

Way to go…………..

[maynicholas]

Thanks. I feel much better now.

[maynicholas]

Well...

 

I'm told I'm getting a present for Christmas that any girl would be happy to have... that if I don't like it all bets are off, that I didn't get anything for my birthday because he was saving up to get me this- so now it's a birthday/ christmas present... I ask- Is it a diamond? No answer... wow- finally- he gets it! I wash and dry my hair, I shave, I smell nice, I tell the bottle of Champagne in the fridge that it's getting opened tonight!

 

Guess what I got! A diamond ring... guess what I didn't get... a marriage proposal.

 

Yeah.

 

I finally thought this was it. Talk about hurt and let down. I opened the box and saw the diamond ring. I paused and waited thinking there would be a question about to be asked... he asked if I liked it. I said it's beautiful! wait... wait... wait... I ask- Is this it? Do you have anything to add? He says- What you don't like it? I said- This is it?- no question for me? He looks at me like I have 3 heads. I closed the box and said it's beautiful, but I don't want it. He doesn't get it. I said you don't get me a diamond ring unless you mean something by it. Thank you, but I don't want it. I go to the bedroom in tears.

 

I really and trully deep in my heart believed this was it. He led me to believe I was getting a diamond ring. I thought there is no way after all this time he would get me a diamond ring just for "a pretty ring"... but boy was I wrong.

 

He gave me a couple of minutes and then came into the bedroom and asked what was wrong. I told him how I can't take a diamond ring from him at this point that doesn't mean engagement. We went back and forth. He said he wasn't sure that was what he wanted. He said the diamond was to celebrate 10 years together. I said that he knows how much marriage means to me. He said he isn't sure that is something he ever wants. I told him to stop holding up his parents as an example for marriage. And if after 10 years he didn't know if he wanted marriage- then I don't want this relationship. I told him that I will not compromise on this. That he may not understand,but this means the world to me. He said what is he supposed to do since I am leaving in July. I told him that is is just for 6 years- he said I made life plans without him. I said well- I gave you till October and you chose not to step up- just like you chose to give me a diamond without it meaning anything but a piece of jewelry.

 

He said he can't afford an engagement ring- I said- you just gave me a diamond ring!!!! He said it's a bunch of small diamonds- it's a cocktail ring- I said it isn't the jewelry that is important- it is the intention. I told him that this ring is almost like he thinks I want to get engaged for the ring so he got me this as a consolation prize.

 

I told him that at this point- if you don't know if you want marriage, then I can no longer be with you. Please consider this relationship over. Well I can't move out- but I think I will move into the spare room untill July.

 

How do I proceed and act as though we are split when we still live together? Please understand that I absolutely can not move at this time due to finances and the fact that I will have a huge move in July. Luckily we live in a 3 bedroom- so I can move into the extra room that is mine (we each have a room that is ours aside from the bedroom). How do I do this???

 

Talk about heart broken...

[ShoeGirl]

Oh wow... I am so sorry!!

 

I know that finances are tight for you right now but is there anywhere you can go for the next 6-7 months? A friend that has an extra room anything? I just think that you will not have a chance to get over him while you are still living with him, you will each see everything that the other is doing including dating (if either of you does start dating in that time period.) And if he is as stubborn as he seems from what you have said then he might think that you are still together.

 

Good luck with whatever happens!! You will find a guy who will love you and want to marry you!

[norajane]

he said I made life plans without him.

 

Yes, of course you did - that's the difference between married and not married!

 

He said what is he supposed to do since I am leaving in July.

 

If he is truly committed to your relationship even though he can't see himself getting married, he could certainly consider moving with you. But I know you don't want that unless he has intentions of marriage, so I won't suggest that you ask him to do that.

 

I'm sorry, sweets. I know this is a huge blow.

 

You have a rough six months ahead of you, but you can get through it. I did something similar - moving into "my" room in an apartment I shared with one of my exes until I was able to move out. It's hard, and he'll hate it and it will cause hurt feelings which lead to anger and hostility and frustration. I found the best thing was for me to keep very, very busy with work, friends, family, and I spent lots and lots of time at the gym. I also was able to spend some weekends staying with friends and family, so as to minimize our time home together.

 

This might be a wake up call for him!!!

 

One thing you might want to suggest if he is open to it is to go to marriage counseling together. If he recognizes that he has fears based on his parents' marriage, perhaps a counselor can help him work through his fears.

 

Again, I'm so sorry for your heartache. Good luck to you.

[BeHappy]

I completely understand how you feel. I dated my x for 10 years. I felt like we were not going anywhere. It gets to a point where i cried a lot. Money was not the problem. We were just not going anywhere. Not even moving in. There is always a reason why we are not growing. But in the end, we broke up. At this point, I think both of us are happy. I focus on my career and have an amazing job. If we are meant to be together, we will be together. My x always want to date other people because we meet at a very young age.

 

I remember i cried myself to sleep last year because he did not want grow with me. Why? Is it me? Now, I am a different person.

[adnCat]

May-

 

I'm sorry things turned out this way, but I think your reaction was right. You did the right thing.

 

I can understand how hurt your are that his actions might have indicated that all you wanted was a silly ring, when what you really want is marriage.

 

It stinks that you can't move out in July, but you can't so make the best of it. Keep yourself busy and be civil with him- don't leave the room every time he walks in. You can even still converse with him. Don't let him lure you back with something sweet unless it is a marriage proposal.

 

I can't even imagine how hard the next 6 months will be. Just make it clear to him that this is not a silly phase or reaction to the ring w/o the proposal. This is a decision for yourself, and you will not "come around" in a couple weeks.