Is being unfaithful in our DNA? Here's your new thread

[JamesM]

I tend to believe more people cheat than don't, but that is what I am gathering from my own shotty research. I'm not convinced this either way yet though.

 

Rooster, when one experiences cheating, one sees it everywhere. When one is in an affair, one thinks others are.

 

As of now, I am still leaning on the notion that humans are like most other animals, we simply were not cut out to be monogamous (statistics seem to suggest this is correct).

 

And this means that the animals that are monogamous...they are genetically programmed to be monogamous? And if we were not meant to be monogamous, then we cannot be responsible for our lack of monogamy.

 

Social structuring has a lot to do with why monogamy has risen, but I don't think it's prevalent by nature. One has to remember that religion and man historically forced women into staying monogamous, and if they strayed they were stoned or hung. This was part of how are society was founded and was a set of rules forced against our natural instincts.

 

How was our society founded? Why would a set of rules be made that were totally against human nature? Was society a result of evolution? Was religion a result of evolution? And if they are not, why were they developed?

 

"One has to remember..."...where does one find basis for these statements?

 

The church and organized social societies were basically forming their own opinions on how people should act, and enforced these rules in hopes of preventing the chaos it would be without them and to maintain a stable structure.

 

Social societies are made up of people. The church is made up of people. So, these laws were made to do what....prevent chaos and maintain a stable structure? Yet if they were made to go against our genetic DNA, then they were bound to cause instability and chaos. What causes more chaos from YOUR experience...cheating/adultery/polygamy or commitment/monogamy?

 

I think it's similar to forming laws to keep people in order, without them living as a human being would be dangerous and out of control. Now I'm not saying that I'm a genious that all my opinions are right, I am just stating my opinion as I see it through knowledge I have aquired.

 

"Go to the ant..." When you look at an ant colony, do you see chaos or stability? Do they do what they are programmed to do or do they try to do other jobs. Does a worker ant ever try to become queen? Does a male drone rebel and become a worker? No, what they do is what comes naturally and is not causing chaos. Take that to the human race. If we are genetically inclined to cheat, then it would be foolish for society to develop rules that would actually cause chaos and instability. But no, we "force" marriage and commitment because it builds a stable familial structure which makes society much more productive and beneficial to the human race as a whole. "Natural" cheating causes anger and violence. It causes a breakup of families. It causes children to be raised in an insecure environment.

 

Laws are made to make a better society. Our behaviors are not a result of evolution. We are not simply following our genetics blindly. No, we are responsible for our actions whether they are cheating, murder or stealing.

 

One quick question:

Why do you think it is that people that are dead set against cheating cheat? They wind up going against their beliefs, risk losing their jobs, families, and pride to have an affair?

 

Something is driving this force, and I believe it's mother nature which is drawn from natural attraction and pair bonding.

 

So, you don't believe in a God or Creator, but you do believe in Mother Nature? Was SHE the one that set Evolution in motion?

 

Let me ask a question back...why do people murder when they know they will spend the rest of their life in jail? Why do people steal when they know that most of the time they can lose what they have? People do alot of destructive behaviors that are definitely not programmed genetically in their systems.

 

Making the assumption that since people who don't like cheating cheat...means that they had no control....is not a good conclusion. It is not a force...people make bad decisions. If one follows this conclusion to its end, then people who decide to take up skiing when they were dead set against it earlier in life (and yes, I know of cases like this) must have been genetically programmed to do so, and they could not stop themselves from doing so. Or cane we simply say that life changes us as we go...for better or for worse.

[Trialbyfire]

I know choosing the "middle ground" is often seen as just not having an opinion, but I really think humans do fall into the middle ground between monogamy and promiscuity. Lots of evidence points to ball size being a clue about the tendency to be monogamous. And compared to our closest relatives, chimps and gorillas and such, we have an in-between ball size. Not huge like the promiscous chimps and not small like the monogamous gorillas. In between. The tendency to be promiscuous is there, but also there is a natural tendency to monogamy.

 

That's what I think!!

To clarify this, you can't define gorillas as monogamous. They practice polygyny.

 

I also believe that we are not instinctually monogamous. Humanity has evolved this way to reduce tension between males co-existing closely in large societies.

 

Okay, now off the science and nature channel and back to the emo channel. Cheating is a personal decision. I can see why it happens but don't believe that people don't understand what's happening. Ask 90% of cheaters whether they discussed the OW/OM the same way with their s/o's, as they would have with any other same gender friend. You will find that most of the discussions between the cheater and the OW/OM are based on secrecy.

[Rooster_DAR]

So, you don't believe in a God or Creator, but you do believe in Mother Nature? Was SHE the one that set Evolution in motion?

 

I am convinced god does not exist, at least from what we are taught traditionally. I am using "mother nature" as a term for evolution itself, or how evolution is driving life on earth. Again, I don't say that I'm a right and your are wrong, but as of now this is what I believe.

 

I don't understand why people have such a hard time struggling with understanding life in general, when to me all this is so black and white. Religion IMO is what has created part of all the problems were trying to solve (shaming our instinctual behaviors, etc...). However; I do think religion has been beneficial in many ways and continues to do so.

 

I may be strung by a rope or called a bad person for saying this, God as everyone has been brought up to believe does not exist plain and simple. Is there a higher power than us? Possibly, but none of us know the answer at this time.

[Rooster_DAR]

To clarify this, you can't define gorillas as monogamous. They practice polygyny.

 

I also believe that we are not instinctually monogamous. Humanity has evolved this way to reduce tension between males co-existing closely in large societies.

 

Okay, now off the science and nature channel and back to the emo channel. Cheating is a personal decision. I can see why it happens but don't believe that people don't understand what's happening. Ask 90% of cheaters whether they discussed the OW/OM the same way with their s/o's, as they would have with any other same gender friend. You will find that most of the discussions between the cheater and the OW/OM are based on secrecy.

 

Excellent post!

 

A very good observation and I agree here as well.

[Rooster_DAR]

Rooster, when one experiences cheating, one sees it everywhere. When one is in an affair, one thinks others are.

 

I do not argue this one bit. I can honestly say that I have done this many times after my failed relationship, it was easier for me to believe everyone else was a failure because mine was.

 

That being said:

 

I for one believe in statistics, and I have been around long enough to watch nearly every one I ever knew in a relationships meet the same fate. If humans were truly and completely monogamous, then we would simply find one partner and that would be the person for life, it does not happen. Again this is very simple, humans are not monogamous at least up to this point in our evolutionary history.

[Trialbyfire]

I do not argue this one bit. I can honestly say that I have done this many times after my failed relationship, it was easier for me to believe everyone else was a failure because mine was.

 

That being said:

 

I for one believe in statistics, and I have been around long enough to watch nearly every one I ever knew in a relationships meet the same fate. If humans were truly and completely monogamous, then we would simply find one partner and that would be the person for life, it does not happen. Again this is very simple, humans are not monogamous at least up to this point in our evolutionary history.

The more I think about this, the more I'm wondering if both of us are looking at monogamy in the wrong light. Is monogamy defined as one on one, but only at the time of the relationship? Are we making the assumption that it's a life-pairing versus a monogamous short-term relationship?

 

[FONT=Arial]mo·nog·a·my [/FONT] (m-ng-m) [sIZE=-2][COLOR=#0000ff]KEY[/COLOR] [/sIZE]

 

[FONT=arial][sIZE=-1]NOUN: [/sIZE][/FONT]

1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
   
   1. 
      
   2. <LI type=a>The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
      
   3. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.

[*]Zoology The condition of having only one mate during a breeding season or during the breeding life of a pair.

[Rooster_DAR]

This is a very good question, and if what you have quoted is correct, then many other people are misled by the interpretation. I'm too tired to think, I will reasearch this with you tommorow.

[Carbine]

I'm not too sure about 'cheating' specifically being a genetic trait, but I accept the possibility that monogamy may not be instinctive.

 

I also think that certain personality/physical traits displayed by each individual contribute largely to the likelyhood that they will cheat. For example one's 'horniness' (or strength of their sex-drive), their level of impatience etc. I've got a male friend who's an incredibly horny individual, and he claims that this has led him to cheat on previous partners. The only way he can get around this is by finding someone who's willing to be in an 'open' relationship with him.

 

However, I think the bigger influence is one's environment. It's the old nature-nurture debate. For example, the way a person is brought up, whether or not they had a strict moral and/or religious upbringing, the attitudes/behaviour of his or her friends/SO's, observations of others' behaviour, and the society/culture that they live in probably all have a strong influence over whether someone actually cheats or not.

[tanbark813]

One could easily argue from an evolutionsist's POV that humans developed a society for his survival and furthering the ability to procreate. Societies tend to protect humans better than if it is everyone for himself.

 

If evolution is evolving for survival and families help our survival, then monogamy is because we evoived to a higher level. As an evolutionist, we cannot pick what we think is genetically evolving and wht is not.

 

I always love that...it takes millions of years...or billions. Who knows? But it happened, so as many years as necessary it took. We will come up with any plan to avoid the idea that there is Someone higher than us...but that would be another thread.

 

It's really just a semantic disagreement I have with this. The actual points you're making I agree with, but you're not talking about evolution. You're talking about the progress of civilization but that's not the same thing.

[Walk]

I was brought up with strict morals, parents still married and faithful to each other after almost 40 years. Great role models for "the right" way to live.

 

I still cheated. I don't feel it's DNA either. Personally believe that it's rooted in the subconcious and Id aspects. The little child, greedy parts that don't come into the light of day. So some times people get "blind sided" by what they are doing because on one hand they are in denial with themselves about what is happening, and on the other deeply want what they are getting from cheating. (whether its physical or emotional or both)

 

Because it is 'repulsive' the denial of doing wrong is even stronger. The lie isn't just to others, but also to themselves.

 

Just my theory from what I experienced.

[Rooster_DAR]

I'm not too sure about 'cheating' specifically being a genetic trait, but I accept the possibility that monogamy may not be instinctive.

 

I also think that certain personality/physical traits displayed by each individual contribute largely to the likelyhood that they will cheat. For example one's 'horniness' (or strength of their sex-drive), their level of impatience etc. I've got a male friend who's an incredibly horny individual, and he claims that this has led him to cheat on previous partners. The only way he can get around this is by finding someone who's willing to be in an 'open' relationship with him.

 

However, I think the bigger influence is one's environment. It's the old nature-nurture debate. For example, the way a person is brought up, whether or not they had a strict moral and/or religious upbringing, the attitudes/behaviour of his or her friends/SO's, observations of others' behaviour, and the society/culture that they live in probably all have a strong influence over whether someone actually cheats or not.

 

I think some of this is true, but in my case it doesn't work completely. I don't believe in god, had a bad childhood, and I am an overly sexual person. I have never cheated on any of my partners. Now, it is true the my mother (as bad as she was of a mother) did instill many moral things into me, and being faithful to your partner was something that I was brought up on.

 

Regards,

[Rooster_DAR]

I was brought up with strict morals, parents still married and faithful to each other after almost 40 years. Great role models for "the right" way to live.

 

I still cheated. I don't feel it's DNA either. Personally believe that it's rooted in the subconcious and Id aspects. The little child, greedy parts that don't come into the light of day. So some times people get "blind sided" by what they are doing because on one hand they are in denial with themselves about what is happening, and on the other deeply want what they are getting from cheating. (whether its physical or emotional or both)

 

Because it is 'repulsive' the denial of doing wrong is even stronger. The lie isn't just to others, but also to themselves.

 

Just my theory from what I experienced.

 

It has very much to do with genetics IMO, I think we will eventually have concrete evidence of it. I do agree though it is a selfish decision.

 

Cheers!

[westernxer]

Cheating is behavioral, the urge to merge genetic.

[Rooster_DAR]

Here is some more interesting reading on this topic, taken from (The HealthDay Web site is at http://www.HealthDay.com.)

 

Women who feel an urge for sex outside of their marriages might be hearing an evolutionary call to improve the species.

New research suggests that during ovulation, when women are ready to conceive, nature may encourage them to look beyond their male partners for a better gene pool -- but only if they don't find their mates sexually attractive.

"The mating market is driven by supply and demand, and therefore not all women will attract long-term mates offering good genes," the study authors stated. Women innately deduce that a man they find sexy has better genes to pass on to a baby.

"Ancestrally, these women may have benefited from a strategy in which they secured investment from a long-term mate and obtained genetic benefits from extra-pair partners," the study added.

But the researchers, from the University of California, Los Angeles, and the University of New Mexico, also contend that men who are generally less attractive to women tend to guard their ovulating wives with particularly attentive and possessive behavior.

 

 

"What is at stake is not just the loss of face or the loss of love," says co-author Martie G. Haselton, an assistant professor of communication studies and psychology at UCLA. "This is about Darwinian prosperity. Males who did not successfully guard their mates are not our ancestors."

Study co-author Steven W. Gangestad, a psychologist at the University of New Mexico, says studies he has worked on have shown that women prefer men whose faces, voices, odors and demeanor are deemed masculine. It makes sense then that they should be particularly inclined toward such men when they are ovulating, particularly if their usual partner is something less than a 10 on the stud scale.

It makes sense physiologically as well, says Dr. Irwin Goldstein, founder and former director of the Institute for Sexual Medicine at the Boston University School of Medicine. Women who are ovulating have a higher level of testosterone, which causes heightened desire, he says, adding that they are now ready and willing to conceive.

If your libido is high and you require a partner to express that libido, you have to find a person who is sexually functional, Goldstein says. Couples influence each others' experience.

Scientifically, a woman's sexual physiology is linked to the man's performance, so during ovulation she may seek a man who appears ready to get the job done, he says.

The study, reported in the current issue of Hormones and Behavior, was based on responses from 38 coeds from a large unnamed U.S. university. They were asked to rate their partner's sexual attractiveness and submitted 35 diary-like entries rating the strength of their attractions to men other than their mates, and the frequency with which they flirted or otherwise acted out those attractions.

 

 

For a second study, Haselton recruited 43 women who similarly rated their partner's sexual attractiveness on a day near ovulation and on a nonfertile day.

Those findings, to be published in Evolution and Human Behavior, confirm the first study, Haselton says.

"We aren't saying that women are genetically programmed to be unfaithful," says Gangestad. "They aren't robots following genetic instruction. You have psychology, biology that is some product of selection. But relationships are mixtures of loving aspects and conflicts, and this is a part of conflict. Infidelity itself is a choice."

[WoWaddict]

Another thread spiralled into the topic that being unfaithful is in human's genetic makeup. Here's your chance to give your opinion and debate. Like I said in the other thread I am not a scientist so I cannot firmly say that it is not our in our DNA, but I do know I've never had the urge to cheat, and the thought of being unfaithful makes me sick. Maybe I don't have the unfaithful gene? Lucky me

 

 

lol i dont think that there's a gene. I am a strong believer that history repeats itself though, but not because of genetics.

 

Say if a child was exposed to parental infedelities, it would give him a distorted view on love and marriage, and more likely to do the same. Not everyone, just some.

Also the way the media is today, they kind of make it seem like sleeping around is an ok thing to do.

The O.C anyone? or for the old schoolers... Dawson's Creek.

 

i havent slept in 48 hours, thats the best example i can come up with right now lol.

[westernxer]

i havent slept in 48 hours...

 

Why haven't you slept in 48 hours?

[WoWaddict]

lol i'm trying to get my sleep pattern back on track.

 

semester finals threw me off on my sleep, and I've been trying to get back to normal.

 

i'll be up all night and sleep all day. So i'm trying to fight sleep to make myself go to bed at like midnight, so I can sleep through the night and wake up in the morning. For some reason I haven't been able to sleep the last couple of days.

 

It's been hitting me hard the last couple of hours though.... but i'm trying to fight it till around midnight.

 

i think that makes sense.... i tried anyways. lol.

[Madeamistake]

C'mon people, we are mammals are not much different than any other species other than we have an evolved intelligence. Life if all about evolving the species whether you want to believe it or not. The attraction to anyone is fundamentally at a biological and evolutionary level, to create a stronger species capable of survival.

 

The difference between us and the rest of our fellow living creatures is that we are not only more intelligent, we are also emotionally evolved. That gives us the advantage to interpret our feelings, and now we can make intelligent decisions based on what we know and not just on instinct. In a nutshell we do have the capacity to stay monogamous, although we are not naturally monogomous.

 

Could not have said better.

[roxy_1980]

As a molecular biologist, I can say with complete confidence there is NO cheating gene.

 

That said, there are evolutionary forces that make it favorable to be cheating in the past. The term "survival of the fittest' actually refers to reproductive fitness. Meaning the individuals that have most children (that live to reproductive age) win.

 

For men, this means the more they empregnate women the better the chance their offspring would survive. Staying with one woman was limiting cause they can only have one kid at a time. That's the male strategy. It's laden with the urge to cheat. Women tend to want to pick a male that will be a good provider for their offspring. They tended to worry about the actual surviving part. Anyone seeing stereotypes here?

 

Many of you are looking at this saying that cheating is genetic. Natural selection picked it out of the mass of non-cheaters, right? Some may even use this as an excuse to cheat. Except one thing. We no longer live in the hell hole of a world that it used to be, where there were animals that could eat us, disease around every corner and making it past your 10th birthday was a crapshot. (Well at least not in the areas where internet usage is most prevalent)

 

We have the choice to be in stable relationship with people we love or to screw around on them. Genetic factors have very little influence on behaviour issues. Environmental factors are much more important in this case. And I believe that it all comes down to free choice, right?

 

So the next time that someone tells you that cheating is genetic, tell them that a molecular biologist told them to use their brains and stop using genetics as a cop out for being an @$$hole!

[Rooster_DAR]

As a molecular biologist, I can say with complete confidence there is NO cheating gene.

 

That said, there are evolutionary forces that make it favorable to be cheating in the past. The term "survival of the fittest' actually refers to reproductive fitness. Meaning the individuals that have most children (that live to reproductive age) win.

 

For men, this means the more they empregnate women the better the chance their offspring would survive. Staying with one woman was limiting cause they can only have one kid at a time. That's the male strategy. It's laden with the urge to cheat. Women tend to want to pick a male that will be a good provider for their offspring. They tended to worry about the actual surviving part. Anyone seeing stereotypes here?

 

Many of you are looking at this saying that cheating is genetic. Natural selection picked it out of the mass of non-cheaters, right? Some may even use this as an excuse to cheat. Except one thing. We no longer live in the hell hole of a world that it used to be, where there were animals that could eat us, disease around every corner and making it past your 10th birthday was a crapshot. (Well at least not in the areas where internet usage is most prevalent)

 

We have the choice to be in stable relationship with people we love or to screw around on them. Genetic factors have very little influence on behaviour issues. Environmental factors are much more important in this case. And I believe that it all comes down to free choice, right?

 

So the next time that someone tells you that cheating is genetic, tell them that a molecular biologist told them to use their brains and stop using genetics as a cop out for being an @$$hole!

 

I can respect your thoughts on this, sounds like your are qualified to project an accurate observation. I don't think there is a cheating gene either, but I don't think there is a faithful gene either. Given the patterns or other living species, most of them are not monogamous. Now, we are different from these other species simply because we have an evolved intelligence, and with that comes rationale and the ability to make decisions based on what we think is right or wrong.

 

Here's the dilemma, why is it that people who say they would never cheat and it's something they aren't capable of, but yet given the right circumstances they fall into it knowing it's wrong, and they can't stop. Surely this is the same law of attraction that drives evolution and procreation. Please indulge me if I'm mistaken in this observation, and give me a proof of concept that says otherwise.

 

Excellent post! BTW

[roxy_1980]

Firstly, I made no assumptions about a faithful gene. Genes are simply codes for proteins. They code for hormones and brain structures that were similar to our ancestors. Those hormones and brain structures are what gives us our basic sexual urges, such as attraction and the need to procreate.

 

But intellect and our ability to differentiate right and wrong allows us to make a simple choice. And you nailed it on the head there, by the way, Rooster. They know its wrong, but they do it anyway. They let their hormones override their intelligence. But, they still have to let that happen. It's not like they lose all voluntary control over their motor skills due to their hormones. (If someone has actually experience this, please come forward, I'm sure I know people who would like to study/disprove this phenomenon.)

[Rooster_DAR]

Firstly, I made no assumptions about a faithful gene. Genes are simply codes for proteins. They code for hormones and brain structures that were similar to our ancestors. Those hormones and brain structures are what gives us our basic sexual urges, such as attraction and the need to procreate.

 

But intellect and our ability to differentiate right and wrong allows us to make a simple choice. And you nailed it on the head there, by the way, Rooster. They know its wrong, but they do it anyway. They let their hormones override their intelligence. But, they still have to let that happen. It's not like they lose all voluntary control over their motor skills due to their hormones. (If someone has actually experience this, please come forward, I'm sure I know people who would like to study/disprove this phenomenon.)

 

I see we are coming to agreement here. I also believe it's a decision, and it's based on our intelligence of knowing right from wrong. I am merely entertaining the idea that the causes leading up to one straying may be at at a biological level. I am reading some interesting findinds by "Barash and Lipton" who have done and are doing extensive work in this area. They have pretty much deduced that nearly all living creatures cheat, and that it's evolutionary normal.

 

I also brought up this topic on several other treads, that people who cheat are clusmsy, and people who remain monogamous tend to be more healthy emotionally. I am going to buy their book, it's contains some very interesting new research being conducted on this topic. One of the links is provided below that briefs their findings.

 

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/105/107692.htm

[Walk]

why is it that people who say they would never cheat and it's something they aren't capable of, but yet given the right circumstances they fall into it knowing it's wrong, and they can't stop. Surely this is the same law of attraction that drives evolution and procreation. Please indulge me if I'm mistaken in this observation, and give me a proof of concept that says otherwise.

I don't even want to entertain the notion that it's "genetic" that people cheat. It strips away all personal responsibility for our actions. I am pre-programmed to reproduce, yet I don't. I choose not to. There isn't a much stronger drive than that maternal instinct, yet I'm quite capable of denying it without struggle. And if I'm not cheating to find a better father to my children, then why did I cheat?

 

For me, cheating was mental, emotional, some what physical, but based almost entirely on escaping problems I refused to deal with. It was a mental problem for me. Not a genetic based drive to further the species.

 

I am not convinced I cheated in order to protect the survival of the human species. That's laughable at best, and down right scary if people cheating believe they're on some type of campaign to "better the species".

[BruiserKC]

Is this anything like the bacteria they've supposedly found that is making us fat as opposed to scarfing down McDonald's and three helpings of dinner?

 

The idea of a gene that allows us to want to get down other women's pants (or men in the case of you women) is absolutely ridiculous. It's just another example of how we can't take responsibility for ourselves, so let's place the blame elsewhere.