Question to the erm...religious

[alphamale]

I think I'm going to convert from Agnostic to Secular Humanist on Jan 1st

[blind_otter]

Ok, this is addressed to the people that just know there is this god out there that's all powerful, creator and master of the universe yadda yadda yadda.

 

So my question is... who or what created that aforementioned god? how did *it* come into being?

 

God has always existed.

 

Interestingly enough, Buddhists don't even have a creation story. They don't really care to think about it because it doesn't really matter when it comes to practicing your beliefs on a daily basis, spreading goodwill and charity and whatnot has nothing to do with who created what when where or why.

 

I tend to agree with the Buddhists.

[blind_otter]

That direct experience IMO has more to do with needing emotional connection with something higher than us, coupled with the all might power of suggestion.

 

No sir, I have actually felt the hand of God in my life. Especially when I was very young, before I had a set belief system. I won't go into details but I had a direct experience with the sacred that led to a powerful re-awakening of my beliefs.

[CardPlay3r]

I'm not replying to every single post, too long and not in the mood. Just a few pointers....

 

Everyone here that is religious says god always existed. (in case you're wondering or offended, I refuse to write it with a capital G because I don't believe in it nor respect it. moving on...)

 

Would you agree with me that the human mind isn't capable of understanding that state of always existing...without creation/end, the state of infinity shortly?

 

So, if you can't understand the concept itself...surely you can't know that is the case. You just feel that's the case, or going by logic you assume that's the way it is...but can you know 100%, since the concept itself is beyond human understanding?

 

 

No sir, I have actually felt the hand of God in my life. Especially when I was very young, before I had a set belief system. I won't go into details but I had a direct experience with the sacred that led to a powerful re-awakening of my beliefs.

 

Many people say this, they felt/seen/talked to god. Ok...think about this :

People's sensory perceptions are easily tricked. Look at virtual reality now, in a few years you won't be able to tell the difference between virtual reality and VR, and if you got connected without knowing you were, you'll be convinced you saw god, satan, the pope having an orgy or michael jackson sleeping in a different room than the kids, depending on what the VR program was...

[CardPlay3r]

Putting this in a new post to make it easier to read, also because it addresses another issue : the nature of the god you believe in.

 

Isn't it a bit too much of a coincidence that in every religion that ever existed 'god' is good, wants what's best for people etc.? That to me shows that religion is the human need to feel protected and have someone watch over them, to have explanations for when things go wrong or are too painful to deal with - a loved one dies, they're in "god's hands" now and in a "better place". Isn't this plausible?

 

Someone said I was bound for hell for not believing...oh well, sh*t happens I guess...rooster nailed that comment so I won't repeat it...but want to make another point.

 

Really, think about this....can a person over their short time spent on earth, 80-100 years, do things that are so bad that they deserve to suffer unimaginable tortures for all eternity???. I mean, come on, no matter how many sins you do in any amount of time, eternity is final...which means the sinners can never get punished enough...sounds more like revenge than punishment to me.

 

Finally, there are many cultures and religions, and different interpretations in the same religion...isn't it funny that every group of the same faith thinks they are right, they have all the answers and the others are wrong? who died and made you god? (couldn't resist )

[blind_otter]

Many people say this, they felt/seen/talked to god. Ok...think about this :

People's sensory perceptions are easily tricked. Look at virtual reality now, in a few years you won't be able to tell the difference between virtual reality and VR, and if you got connected without knowing you were, you'll be convinced you saw god, satan, the pope having an orgy or michael jackson sleeping in a different room than the kids, depending on what the VR program was...

 

Well duh, people can have their experience of reality altered. You're writing to a person who has been on almost every single hallucinatory drug on the planet, and I live in an area that is famous for its magic mushrooms. I once spent 3 days straight taking liquid acid, doubling my dose each time. More than once I've been awake for days on end doing drugs and have hallucinated then, as well. I have a high tolerance for mind-altering drugs and am always aware that my consciousness is being altered. The craziest once was salvia divinorum, a type of sage that gives you an intense trip when you smoke it, but the trip only lasts about 15 minutes. I was wallpaper in a farmhouse So I have a lot of experience with altering my consciousness.

 

But this was, is, always will be -- different from those types of experiences.

[CardPlay3r]

But this was, is, always will be -- different from those types of experiences.

 

So...you interpret this hallucination-epiphany thing in this way. Ok...let's play your game, and say that a superior entity got bored with whatever-it-is superior entities do and decided to contact you in that way.

 

Now my question...isn't it sensible that a superior entity that can reveal itself like that, transport a person to another place etc. can also make that person believe whatever they want them to believe?

 

In other words...maybe that entity just wanted you to believe they were god all mighty creator of the universe blablabla etc. etc. while it could've been a superior race's version of a schoolboy playing. You just can't know!

[quankanne]

on God keeping people out of heaven: He doesn't do that, we ultimately decide through our free will if we go to heaven or go to hell. He just provides the many opportunities to get our act together and make those conscious decisions that result in life behind the pearly gates.

 

on being tricked by sensory perceptions: As skeptical as I am of many things, I've never doubted that I am God's and he's mine. I don't *need* to be given proof of his love. However, I have had had the grace of Christ's immediate presence and love when I was reeling from a great loss … I didn't think my pain was worthy of his presence, yet there he was. And I know it wasn't a sensory trick, but the real thing because it was completely unsolicited.

 

Left Behind books: great premise for a story line, but (1) it dragged out (can you say "milked") too long when two or three books could have been more effective in telling the tale; (2) it proposed a false theology of a salvation with only an ultra-select group experiencing "secret" rapture; (3) it really was poorly written, IMHO.

 

Isn't it a bit too much of a coincidence that in every religion that ever existed 'god' is good vs isn't it funny that every group of the same faith thinks they are right, they have all the answers and the others are wrong? the common factor of all these is that there is a call to holiness, to goodness. How that is proposed depends on a religion's interpretation … if people truly want to turn away, why isn't there more theology that promotes self-indulgence? Why are they seeking good, rather than the opposite of good? My personal theory is that they're responding to that divine spark left by their Creator – they're being called "home" on a path that asks them to live a morally good existence so that they achieve heaven.

 

can a person over their short time spent on earth, 80-100 years, do things that are so bad that they deserve to suffer unimaginable tortures for all eternity???. I mean, come on, no matter how many sins you do in any amount of time, eternity is final ... sounds more like revenge than punishment to me.

 

all goes back to that personal decision to embrace the divine. Why does someone who unrepentently goes through life sinning merit heaven? Because it's "fair"? The only thing that makes it fair is that they have the opportunity to reconcile with God through repentence for their behavior, but it must be a conscious decision. Salvation is for everyone, but not everyone claims it.

 

if you willingly choose to turn away the opportunity but complain that you shouldn't reap the consequences it's kinda like saying "i don't want the happy meal because I don't like happy meals, but I damned well better get the prize that comes along with it because it's only fair."

[blind_otter]

So...you interpret this hallucination-epiphany thing in this way. Ok...let's play your game, and say that a superior entity got bored with whatever-it-is superior entities do and decided to contact you in that way.

 

I propose that we are always in contact with God, but we tend to phase that information out of our awareness. That's been my experience with hallucinatory drugs as well -- there are a lot of things that we phase out of our awareness, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In altered states of consciousness, you can experience things that you normally wouldn't....but I would hesitate to say that those things don't exist. They do.

 

In other words...maybe that entity just wanted you to believe they were god all mighty creator of the universe blablabla etc. etc. while it could've been a superior race's version of a schoolboy playing. You just can't know!

 

Well that's what faith is about. I just know.

[CardPlay3r]

otter look...let's have this example : a human as the superior entity, and a fox the inferior entity. The human wears a lion's scent, plays a recording of a lion's roar that appears to be coming from him/her...so the fox just knows that human is a lion...now replace the fox with you, and the human with a superior entity.

 

So you see...you just choose to believe it's 'god' you felt...will you at least admit the possibility that maybe it wasn't god, since if it was a superior entity we can't understand it, or maybe interpret the communication wrong, or maybe it 'tricked' you like the fox example above?

[dropdeadlegs]

CardPlay3r, I am curious as to why you want Blind Otter to consider your beliefs. I don't think Blind Otter cares if you share her beliefs, she has simply tried to answer your original post in the best way she knows how. She knows God exists based on her personal experience(s) and believes He has always existed.

 

I have been considering that original question myself. I guess the best answer I have come up with is that God has always existed because he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. I understand that you do not share that belief, and I have no intention of attempting to change your mind. That is what ticks me off about many organized religions, the need to convert me to their beliefs without concern for what I myself believe. They say that the Bible tells them that they must "witness" to others about the Good Word. The word "witness" has several definitions and I guess pushing my belief in God onto others who have no interest just isn't the meaning of the word witness I choose to interpret this to mean. Most definitions refer to giving a firsthand account, testifying. I prefer the definition leaning more towards acting as witness of. To me that means behaving in a way that God would approve of based on the scriptures. Of course I daily fall short of that.

 

Earlier in this thread you asked JamesM "where did I say that I didn't believe in god" and anyone who does believe noted the lack of capitalization in the OP and would have assumed that to be factual. Personally I thought I remembered you stating in another thread that you are agnostic. At any rate in a later post on this thread you admitted not believing in nor respecting God. That is your right and I respect it. I only feel accountable for my own soul.

 

Bible interpretation and debate used to be one of my father's favorite pastimes. He didn't debate me to change my mind, but more to explain his own beliefs. I don't know enough about scripture to debate anything biblical well, but he didn't need to know much of anything about the Bible to offer some explanation that he was comfortable with. I actually agree with some of the things he pointed out, yet they still fit in with my belief in God.

 

Anyway, what I am hearing from you and others is that humans are incapable of knowing whether there is or isn't a God. Is that correct? I would like to better understand that point of view, but the story about the lion, the fox, and the human didn't convince me that there isn't a God, nor that I can't possibly know the answer to that question. As I stated previously, I have not had any divine intervention that I am aware of, yet I cannot conceive that this world and all of us in it are just some kind of happenstance in time and space. How do you conceive that? It seems too meaningless and coincidental. If I believe in all that Christianity promises and when I die I find that I am wrong; there is no eternal life, just this; I obviously will not reap the benefit I expect, but how has that harmed me here and now? Yet if you do not believe and it turns out I am actually right, according to my beliefs you cannot reap the benefit of everlasting life and will suffer eternal damnation. How does that benefit you? I see the benefit and no harm of my beliefs and see the harm and no benefit of yours.

 

Please explain this to me as I simply cannot understand. Admittedly I chose my beliefs at a young age. Did you as well?

[CardPlay3r]

Anyway, what I am hearing from you and others is that humans are incapable of knowing whether there is or isn't a God. Is that correct? I would like to better understand that point of view, but the story about the lion, the fox, and the human didn't convince me that there isn't a God, nor that I can't possibly know the answer to that question. As I stated previously, I have not had any divine intervention that I am aware of, yet I cannot conceive that this world and all of us in it are just some kind of happenstance in time and space. How do you conceive that? It seems too meaningless and coincidental.

 

I think you're confusing agnosticism and atheism a bit...I'm not saying god doesn't exist, I'm saying maybe it does maybe it doesn't, I or any other human can't possibly understand that.

 

Why? Because god as a concept is infinite in space and time, and no matter how smart or how many epiphanies someone has, we can't ever understand something infinite, simply because it is infinite...so no matter how much of it we grasp, there will always be something beyond our grasp...(this is where the einstein example given above fails!)

 

If I believe in all that Christianity promises and when I die I find that I am wrong; there is no eternal life, just this; I obviously will not reap the benefit I expect, but how has that harmed me here and now? Yet if you do not believe and it turns out I am actually right, according to my beliefs you cannot reap the benefit of everlasting life and will suffer eternal damnation. How does that benefit you? I see the benefit and no harm of my beliefs and see the harm and no benefit of yours.

Please explain this to me as I simply cannot understand. Admittedly I chose my beliefs at a young age. Did you as well?

 

Ah, the good old belief with insurance benefits...well, I for one refuse to believe in something as important, that would change who I am as a person, just to 'score points' with a god most people say is there...

 

If there is a god that condemns me to eternal damnation for not believing when I don't see how I can believe in something I can't know for sure is there...then screw him/her/it.

 

I didn't have these beliefs at an early age...I grew up in a mild orthodox christian background...parents told me there was a god etc. but I began to wonder, how do all those people know for sure there actually is one? I couldn't come up with a good enough answer....tried being an atheist for a period then I wondered how can atheists know for sure there isn't one? Thus, I became agnostic.

[cnfi12]

but thats impossible....if there was a God it would have to be finite.

 

"If" implies condition. What if "impossible" is only impossible for you? If your thought process limits your acceptance of a God, then God cannot exist. But, that would make you the one who would be narrow minded then, wouldn't it?

[dropdeadlegs]

I think you're confusing agnosticism and atheism a bit...I'm not saying god doesn't exist, I'm saying maybe it does maybe it doesn't, I or any other human can't possibly understand that.

 

Oh, I definitely may be confusing the two. I am trying very hard to understand the differences and may not have enough knowledge currently to accurately do so. I think I understand the basics - a theist believes there is a God or Gods while an agnostic does not believe nor disbelieve in God(s) and the atheist believes there is no God(s) at all. Very simplistic, but kind of the meat, right?

 

Why? Because god as a concept is infinite in space and time, and no matter how smart or how many epiphanies someone has, we can't ever understand something infinite, simply because it is infinite...so no matter how much of it we grasp, there will always be something beyond our grasp...(this is where the einstein example given above fails!)

 

Does this mean that the human mind cannot understand infinity because the human mind itself is finite? That I can know the definition of the word, yet that is not enough to grasp it's true meaning?

 

 

 

Ah, the good old belief with insurance benefits...well, I for one refuse to believe in something as important, that would change who I am as a person, just to 'score points' with a god most people say is there...

 

If there is a god that condemns me to eternal damnation for not believing when I don't see how I can believe in something I can't know for sure is there...then screw him/her/it.

 

I guess I don't see my beliefs as changing who I am as a person the way some Christians do. I do not attend church because I do not think any minister has more ability to interpret scripture any better than I do, and three ministers will have three different ideas of the interpretation anyway. I already stated that I'm not knocking on any doors trying to convert anyone. I do try to live by the Golden Rule, but I think most people do. I definitely don't believe in order to "score points" and I don't think someone could pretend to believe just to have insurance benefits, but that has always been the part that confused me the most.

 

I do understand that religions such as Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, and many others don't share my beliefs either and that each religion believes that their tenets are the "right" ones. I guess I'm gambling that I have chosen the "right" religion out of a whole lot of choices. Sometimes I wonder how so many people could be damned eternally when the biggest factor in religion is usually the one a person is born into. I don't mean to imply that there is not a choice to believe something else, just that many believe as their parents do. And many have been around for far longer than Christianity.

 

I didn't have these beliefs at an early age...I grew up in a mild orthodox christian background...parents told me there was a god etc. but I began to wonder, how do all those people know for sure there actually is one? I couldn't come up with a good enough answer....tried being an atheist for a period then I wondered how can atheists know for sure there isn't one? Thus, I became agnostic.

 

I notice that more recent generations are questioning more and choosing other belief systems than those they were brought up with. It seems to be more acceptable today. Thank you for sharing your beliefs and attempting to educate me in them. This has always been a fascinating subject and i am interested in it form all angles.

[CardPlay3r]

Does this mean that the human mind cannot understand infinity because the human mind itself is finite? That I can know the definition of the word, yet that is not enough to grasp it's true meaning?

 

Something like that...take natural numbers for instance, you can try to count them all.. 1,2,3 etc. but even if you spend eternity you won't be able to count them all. same with 'god'...if it's something there, no matter how much you learn about its nature there will always be an infinity of things you won't know.

 

I do understand that religions such as Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, and many others don't share my beliefs either and that each religion believes that their tenets are the "right" ones. I guess I'm gambling that I have chosen the "right" religion out of a whole lot of choices. Sometimes I wonder how so many people could be damned eternally when the biggest factor in religion is usually the one a person is born into.

 

Yes that's right...it does sound rather silly to damn billions for eternity because they didn't believe in you doesn't it? if that's true then god is the biggest narcissist

 

And yes, I think 99% of people have a certain faith because of the environment they grew up in...of course, most will never admit that.

 

What you said above leaves me to believe that you're not 100% sure yourself...chose the belief that you find explains things most to your suiting, but you still have a grain of doubt...am I right?

 

That's what's bothering me most about faith in general, the blind belief the 100% certainty...if people would be 90% sure but still have that 10% of wondering many things would be better...

 

I notice that more recent generations are questioning more and choosing other belief systems than those they were brought up with. It seems to be more acceptable today.

 

Yeah I think so too...it has to do with society opening up and being more accepting I suppose...not too many years ago if you were a non-believer in the official religion of a country you were ostracized from society...sadly that still happens in many places, the pressure is still there.

 

I bet that if society taboos will continue to crumble with years passing, the non religious will grow exponentially....it's happening in europe already probably because the society is more open than in the us on that...

 

I think faith will still be around for most though, I believe the primary reason for faith is the inherent human need to be led, protected etc. so faith will probably still be the main thing until humans evolve into getting rid of that need

 

And...why am I watching a movie that's showing exquisite cuisine when I"m starving to death? :eek:

[bluetuesday]

That's what's bothering me most about faith in general, the blind belief the 100% certainty...if people would be 90% sure but still have that 10% of wondering many things would be better...

 

i am 100% sure that god exists. wondering is great, i've had lots of it, but beneath it all is a rock solid certainty in god that cannot be understood, it can only be experienced.

 

i've discovered from experience that debating the existance of god is pointless for two main reasons.

 

1. god is above and beyond the relative definition of good and bad, right or wrong, existing or not existing. while you're looking at the god argument from the point of view that only that which can be proved is real, you will never come close to understanding either the concept or the reality of god.

 

2. this debate normally takes place between someone who thinks god doesn't exist (or doesn't know) and someone who thinks god does exist, but logically that isn't an equal argument. the person who doesn't believe in god (or doesn't know) can only ever say that they haven't experienced god YET. a particular deist may be deluded - who can tell? - but that doesn't mean all deists are. neither does it mean the atheist in cardplay3r's scenario could prove that either the human or the fox actually existed either.

 

a definitive answer to this question can never be given because some humans can always come up with a reason why someone was deluded or tricked or drugged or made it up or only THOUGHT they experienced something. if god himself landed in your kitchen holding a big sign saying 'told ya' and then whooped you upside the head with it, there is every possibility you'd convince yourself you'd imagined it and sustained the injuries while falling over. no experience is foolproof.

 

i find it amusing when people try to tell intelligent deists likes otter and quank that they're somehow deluding themselves just because they've experienced something other people haven't experienced yet.

 

I believe the primary reason for faith is the inherent human need to be led, protected etc. so faith will probably still be the main thing until humans evolve into getting rid of that need

 

cute idea. i actually believe my life would be less complicated day to day if i were an atheist. for sure there are believers in god who prefer to blame god for problems and thank god for triumphs instead of taking responsibility for their own lives. happily i am not one of them. i am a deist who takes full responsibility for her life, her choices, the consequences of those choices and her own salvation.

 

i don't have faith because i need something or i am less evolved than my atheist friends. i have faith because to me it's blindingly obvious that god exists and to think otherwise would be ridiculous, given my experience. belief doesn't make my life any easier. given what i know, i cannot make choices without being aware of the consequences. you can. i cannot refuse to help people without being aware of the consequences. you can. i cannot live life any way i choose without being aware of the consequences. you can. at the end of our lives one of us is going to be able to plead they didn't know any better. do you really think it's easier for me that it isn't going to be me?

[Guest]

I cant realy get into the details about the bible or god in the tradishional sence. I've never been to church or been taut any of it. I do not understand much more past jesus was born and dided on the cross. And to be honest I dont spend much time contimplateing it eather.

 

To me you can and should be kind and loveing to your fellow man. No matter what religion they may be if any. True love and careing for others. Needs no speical day of worship or fancey place to do it in it comes from the heart!

[lindya]

I can't see any convincing evidential tools to assist a person who wants to present a rational sounding argument for believing in God. I equate belief in God with having a sense of spirituality that feels distinct from and far less tangible than either emotion or logic.

 

For that reason, I perceive true atheism as requiring an utter conviction that one lacks a soul. That seems bleak...but I suppose a person doesn't miss a thing if they never felt they had it in the first place.

 

Agnosticism: "I don't want to be sneered at by the atheists, and accused of being some irrational bumpkin of a God Squad member....but I also need to hedge my bets against the possibility of a fiery inner realm of hell waiting for me. So I'll refuse to take any real stance on this until I'm provided with firm evidence that will prevent me from making a fool of myself."

[CardPlay3r]

I can't see any convincing evidential tools to assist a person who wants to present a rational sounding argument for believing in God. I equate belief in God with having a sense of spirituality that feels distinct from and far less tangible than either emotion or logic.

 

For that reason, I perceive true atheism as requiring an utter conviction that one lacks a soul. That seems bleak...but I suppose a person doesn't miss a thing if they never felt they had it in the first place.

 

Agnosticism: "I don't want to be sneered at by the atheists, and accused of being some irrational bumpkin of a God Squad member....but I also need to hedge my bets against the possibility of a fiery inner realm of hell waiting for me. So I'll refuse to take any real stance on this until I'm provided with firm evidence that will prevent me from making a fool of myself."

 

 

Wow...that post is false to the core. There are plenty of atheists out there that are good, loving people and plenty of faithful that are anything but.

 

As for agnosticism...thanks for the judgement but maybe, just maybe my beliefs aren't based on trying to please anyone, or the main society's beliefs

[pricillia]

What is the purpose of believing in God?

 

Can you love and be in peace without him?

 

Being kind caring and loving does that have to do with God or with the choices we make, and knowing right from wrong...

 

People kill in the name of God? that I just don't understand, sad but true

 

And on the other side of it what about the Devil, we can't discuss one without the other.

[lindya]

Wow...that post is false to the core. There are plenty of atheists out there that are good, loving people and plenty of faithful that are anything but.

 

As for agnosticism...thanks for the judgement but maybe, just maybe my beliefs aren't based on trying to please anyone, or the main society's beliefs

 

False to you, true to me. It makes little sense to invite others to express their opinions, only to get uptight when others do exactly that.

 

Also, where did I suggest that atheists are bad people? I'm just providing my definition of what a spiritual belief entails. I think I'd find life quite bleak without having any kind of spiritual belief. That's it.

 

To your agnosticism. I'm really glad that your beliefs (whatever they are) aren't based on trying to please anyone. It's good that you don't need that kind of validation...and presumably it means that my judgements won't bother you enough to get rolling eyed over.

[CardPlay3r]

Well if you think about it, atheists and agnostics are the ones that go against the flow and stuff...always been this way, so if anything, they're doing the opposite of fitting in...

 

And yes pricillia, people do many stupid things in the name of god...but that has to do with religion really, I was talking about faith as a concept here...you can have faith and not be in any religion

[lindya]

Well if you think about it, atheists and agnostics are the ones that go against the flow and stuff...always been this way, so if anything, they're doing the opposite of fitting in...

 

It depends on the prevailing groupthink in a given situation. In most social settings I've encountered, overtly expressed religious beliefs would cause the odd exchange of smirks. Yet the people in those situations have gone onto solemnly exchange vows with eachother in church, and have their babies christened there too.

 

Probably the people who find it hardest to fit in are those who feel they must form and live by a fairly rigid set of prescribed rules in order to avoid feeling hypocritical/disloyal to their beliefs. The atheist who misses seeing a friend getting married because the ceremony takes place inside a church. The agnostic who upsets family members one year when some thought process or other leads him to the decision to forego the festivities of Christmas. The dogmatic Christian whose regular references to the bible begin to seriously disrupt other people's conversational and creative flow.

 

And on that note, I'm off to get a bit boozy and kiss some people I know - and, hopefully, a few I don't. Have a good Hogmanay, everyone. Whatever you believe in.