Question to the erm...religious

[CardPlay3r]

Ok, this is addressed to the people that just know there is this god out there that's all powerful, creator and master of the universe yadda yadda yadda.

 

So my question is... who or what created that aforementioned god? how did *it* come into being?

 

Please, don't answer with "he just did" or "I don't know, I can't know", because answering that question requires the same level of knowledge as the "is there a god?" question does...to which you already 'found' the answer.

[Moose]

If a total stranger walked up to you, and smacked you upside the head causing brain damage......you wouldn't know who this person was, where he/she came from, what he/she was about, or why he even smacked you, but you have clear evidence that he/she exists because of the impact he/she has made on your life.......right?

 

Who cares where God came from? You're trying to answer what came first, the chicken or the egg.....

 

You and I aren't able to comprehend these things, therefore, you won't get the answer you're looking for until He decides to reveal Himself to you in a way only you can understand.

[JamesM]

Moose, for some silly reason I doubt your answer will have the desired "impact."

 

Personally, I would have to say that a God who is powerful enough to create the world...as the Bible and all other religions' books say....has no beginning or end. And I am guessing you knew that you would get that answer.

 

To me this is much easier to believe than the one that says life began from non-life.

[JamesM]

Believing in God is just another way to stop your brain from asking the questions that can't be answered...

 

Believeing there is no God without truly asking yourself the deep questions where we came from allows your brain to refrain from asking (or simply ignore) the obvious question...why am I here and where am I going?

[quankanne]

he "is, and always shall be, world without end." Kinda like the theory of infinity ... stretches out in both directions with no real beginning or ending, but you understand that "it" is.

[Rooster_DAR]

Believeing there is no God without truly asking yourself the deep questions where we came from allows your brain to refrain from asking (or simply ignore) the obvious question...why am I here and where am I going?

 

Well our other thread was terminated by the moderators I suppose, but I wanted to reply to your last post. Here it is.

 

If you go back and read my posts, I stress that I don't believe in God in the traditional sense. There may have been a post or two where I failed to mention that, probably because I was generalizing. I don't think it's a fight at all, I think fighting leads to closed mindedness and offers no solution to any problem or debate. Trust me, when I feel like I am wrong or my thinking is skewed, I will have no problem admitting it. Again, I am not here to force my belief on anyone, I'm merely stating my opinion based on some fact and some knowlege I've learned through the years.

 

[JamesM]

Rooster, yes, they took down the other thread for some reason. I was going to PM you for some more discussion, but you don't "allow" PMing. If you do change that, feel free to PM for more debate. I would enjoy hearing your journey to your current belief.

 

I did get the impression from a number of answers that you do not believe there is a God. Thanks for the clarification.

 

But I don't want to sidetrack this thread for the OP.

[Storyrider]

By definition an infinite, all powerful God would exist outside of time, and would therefore have no beginning.

[alphamale]

By definition an infinite, all powerful God would exist outside of time, and would therefore have no beginning.

but thats impossible....if there was a God it would have to be finite.

[Storyrider]

but thats impossible....if there was a God it would have to be finite.

 

Imagine God is the author of a story. The story is about us. So he is writing this story, in this analogy, with pen and paper. The story exists on the paper. The dimensions of the paper confine the characters in the story, and those characters cannot move beyond those dimensions. But God exists outside of the paper and is not limited by it. Not only that, but he can look at the story at the beginning, middle and end at the same time, while we, the characters, can only see it from our limited, finite point of view.

 

Of course, no analogy is perfect, but that is the way I like to think about it.

[alphamale]

Of course, no analogy is perfect, but that is the way I like to think about it.

well according to the physical laws we know of now there is no way anything can exist without beginning and without end and be all-knowing. maybe we as humans will discover something in a million years that will change this but as for today that the way it is.

 

and anyways, debating something that may or may not exist is futile.

[CardPlay3r]

Believeing there is no God without truly asking yourself the deep questions where we came from allows your brain to refrain from asking (or simply ignore) the obvious question...why am I here and where am I going?

 

Now, where did I say I didn't believe in god? My point is...I just don't know, and neither can anyone really know, it's beyond human ability to understand that....like the answers above prove

 

So yes, I ask myself those questions, and realize I can't answer them...and I think it's quite arrogant of people to claim they know the answer to them.

 

Human mind can't comprehend infinity so just saying "god is infinite in time and space" is simply saying "I don't know, but I'll choose to believe that so I won't admit I'm just a human and I can't understand these things"

 

As for the person that said "who cares"...well, if you don't even care to know what kind of entity you are willingly serving, or putting your whole life in 'it's' service...

[bluetuesday]

Please, don't answer with "he just did" or "I don't know, I can't know", because answering that question requires the same level of knowledge as the "is there a god?" question does...to which you already 'found' the answer.

 

i'm interested in why you think having all the answers about god would require the same level of knowledge as having any answers. if we were talking about any other subject, say mathematics, you wouldn't have made this assumption. being able to add 14 and 27 doesn't require the same level of mathematical understanding as being able to solve fermat's last theorem. so why restrict spiritual thought or study or understanding to an 'all or nothing' philosophy?

 

people don't just believe in god 'because they do'. people believe in god because they have had a direct experience of something they believe is god. this experience will never constitute proof to anyone else, since proof of god would interfere with your free will to not believe in god if you don't want to. but it IS proof to the people concerned. and since we all experience the world subjectively, the experience is as valid to them as any subjective experience is to anyone else.

 

My point is...I just don't know, and neither can anyone really know, it's beyond human ability to understand that....like the answers above prove

 

So yes, I ask myself those questions, and realize I can't answer them...and I think it's quite arrogant of people to claim they know the answer to them.

 

there are many questions you can't answer and the same goes for us all. but would you call einstein arrogant because he knew something about physics you didn't? i doubt it. some people have a higher spiritual understanding than you. it's not that they're deluded or refuse to ask difficult questions. it's that they've been willing to put in the time to find out and their life experience has confirmed the existence of god for them. arrogance would be rubbing your face in your lack of belief and no one is doing that.

 

thinking about god in human terms will always you give you an incomplete answer because the unlimited being that is god cannot, by definition, be fully comprehended with limited human understanding. we think of things as having a beginning and an end because in our limited experience, they do.

 

'did god have a beginning?' is one of the earliest questions i can remember asking. i was five, and would badger my mum senseless asking it over and over again. she would answer 'no, god has always been there' and i would go away and think about it and come back with 'but there MUST have been a day he arrived!' i'm now 34, and although i don't ask the question in the same way anymore, it's taken me almost 30 years to receive an answer i can fully accept and understand.

 

that answer has to do with the nature of god, whether the creator being we call god is the same as the 'allness' of god and whether a formless god that pre-existed the individualised god of form we call the creator is the same thing as the allness, instead of simply being of the same substance. you see, there is an answer but that answer cannot be understood in a linear way.

 

it would be incorrect to say that there was a time god didn't exist - not only because time is a human convention, not a spiritual one - but because god has an aspect that is formless self-awareness, or potential existence, and god has an aspect that IS existence. so god is the potential for existence, as well as the fabric of existence.

 

so was there a time when the potential for existence didn't exist? no. because to imply something didn't exist would mean there was a potential for something TO EXIST, and that potential to exist is part of what god is.

 

the opposite of a potential for existing is a void in which there is no potential. did this void ever exist? the evidence we have is that we exist. if we began existing at a certain time, prior to that there was a potential that we could exist. if prior to that there was no potential that there could ever be a potential that we could exist, we wouldn't exist now.

 

so god always existed, because the potential for life always existed, and that's what god is.

 

incidentally, you have the power to tap into something which transcends human understanding and will answer these questions for you. there is a still, small voice that will speak your heart if you truly want to know god. you have the ability to tune into this voice and receive the truth. it depends how badly you want to know as to whether you'll do this with an open heart - putting no restrictions on the answer you'll get - or not.

 

sometimes we get answers we don't expect. a good question to ask yourself first is 'do i want there to be a god?' if you would rather there wasn't, if knowledge of god would force you to change your life and you don't want to... well, just be careful what you ask for. no amount of me telling you that whatever effort you put in will be worth it when you get an answer will convince you, if what you really want for this life is to tread a path that isn't godly. i'm not making an assumption about you, just saying.

[Love Hurts]

When two individuals look each other in the eye and say; I love you.

For example a child speaking to a parent a parent:

Each of those individuals feels love.

You can’t see love……. you feel it.

Just because you can’t see it … does not mean it does not exist.

We just know that it is.

 

That’s one way to see God.

[Rooster_DAR]

people don't just believe in god 'because they do'. people believe in god because they have had a direct experience of something they believe is god.

 

That direct experience IMO has more to do with needing emotional connection with something higher than us, coupled with the all might power of suggestion.

 

When you see a very emotional movie such as a love story, you get caught in the moment and your mind is emotionally connected to what your are experiencing, be it real or not (Same thing with falling in love). Ministers tell the story of the bible in such a profound way, that we are drawn into the dynamics and start feeling that experience in a very emotional way. I'm not a biologist, but I would assume this feeling is a release of endorphins or something that simulates what a drug induced feeling might be and can be very overwhelming. Couple all of this with the human need to feel connected and that makes a pretty powerful combination. Could it be that we just experienced a profound emotional experience from suggestion we are assuming it's divine intervention? I think it's very plausable, but I do admit I don't know the answer to this for sure.

 

I say believe what makes you happy or you want to believe, but I am not unhappy at all because I don't thing God exists in the traditional sense. People should not assume that atheist's and agnostics are unhappy people, these people are perhaps some of the kindest and profound humans on the planet.

 

Cheers!

[JamesM]

Rooster, I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore, but I saw your name, read your post, and you got me...I had to say SOMETHING.

 

That direct experience IMO has more to do with needing emotional connection with something higher than us, coupled with the all might power of suggestion.

 

I am not arguing this point with you. This does happen often, and many people believe that they have been converted/saved. Some Christian churches that have altar calls, faith healing, etc. rely on emotional connections for counting the converted. However, as you know from your upbringing, true salvation goes much deeper. It brings a profound change upon someone. They do not just have "emotional experiences." This conversion changes how they act and think about their daily lives. No, they are not perfect, but they strive to do what is right in God's eyes. This is much more than an emotional experience.

 

People should not assume that atheist's and agnostics are unhappy people, these people are perhaps some of the kindest and profound humans on the planet.

 

I would never argue this point with you. People can have good qualities no matter what the belief or lack thereof. I haven't heard too many Christians say differently. But as you remember, it is not in the world that makes the total difference, but Christians believe that it is the afterlife where the line is drawn. True happiness is not just here on Earth, but it extends beyond the grave. Personally, I can see the difference here in the world many times, but sadly, too many Christians do not show the difference. Rather than showing their Christianity through actions, they try to convert people via words, and then do exactly the opposite of what they have preached. I know I have been guilty of that myself too many times. Many more people believe something...no matter the belief...based on what positive changes they see in the lives of those believers. We tend to forget this.

 

Just my opinions, but obviously they are right. JK.

[Rooster_DAR]

Rooster, I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore, but I saw your name, read your post, and you got me...I had to say SOMETHING.

 

 

 

I am not arguing this point with you. This does happen often, and many people believe that they have been converted/saved. Some Christian churches that have altar calls, faith healing, etc. rely on emotional connections for counting the converted. However, as you know from your upbringing, true salvation goes much deeper. It brings a profound change upon someone. They do not just have "emotional experiences." This conversion changes how they act and think about their daily lives. No, they are not perfect, but they strive to do what is right in God's eyes. This is much more than an emotional experience.

 

 

 

I would never argue this point with you. People can have good qualities no matter what the belief or lack thereof. I haven't heard too many Christians say differently. But as you remember, it is not in the world that makes the total difference, but Christians believe that it is the afterlife where the line is drawn. True happiness is not just here on Earth, but it extends beyond the grave. Personally, I can see the difference here in the world many times, but sadly, too many Christians do not show the difference. Rather than showing their Christianity through actions, they try to convert people via words, and then do exactly the opposite of what they have preached. I know I have been guilty of that myself too many times. Many more people believe something...no matter the belief...based on what positive changes they see in the lives of those believers. We tend to forget this.

 

Just my opinions, but obviously they are right. JK.

 

Excellent! I truly respect how you feel and totally understand. I was kind of responding to an earlier post where someone apparently was offended and made the assumption that some of us where lost or something. D'oh! Maybe I am or maybe I'm not, but maybe I am right at least through what I believe. Again, I respect everyone's beliefs and I guess I expect the same.

 

I think the more important thing is that we respect one another no matter what our beliefs or backgrounds, and unfortunately this is not the case a lot of the time. After all we all share the same planet, and we should be looking at ways of improving our relationships instead of trying to destroy eachother. You asked where some of my thoughts and beliefs came from, so I will tell you some but won't go into detail, it would be too long. As of now, I immerse myself into the sciences, I watch a lot of Carl Sagan DVD's and have several other box sets regarding evolution.

 

I grew up extremely religious, my mother was a Christian and my father was agnostic/atheists, not sure which. I remember seeing all the books my father had in his library, many of them were writings from Charles Darwin. My mom did'nt want me to read them, so I pretty much stayed away from them. My father died when I was eitht years old, and so I endured a really bad childhood in the years following. I got into trouble with everything, and lashed out terribly against my family, very dysfunctional. In my twenties I started getting curious as to why peoples prayers weren't getting answered, and no miracles of the bible were happening like the bible claimed. I also began to understand fundamental physics and started deducing the contradictions the scriptures wrote about.

 

I very predispositioned to intuition, I'm not sure where it came from but it has been an efficient tool that has been very accurate for me in life. I just seem to have a feeling that what I was brought up to believe was inaccurate and/or misleading. Anyway, I am still open to believing there is a great creator, I just don't think it's anything like what I perceived growing up. It's always a pleasure talking with you, I definitely enjoy your insights.

 

Cya!

[JamesM]

As of now, I immerse myself into the sciences, I watch a lot of Carl Sagan DVD's and have several other box sets regarding evolution.

 

 

Cya!

 

Have you looked into the claimed evidence that supports creation as well? There are many excellent books out there that give you good data that shows not only where Darwin went wrong, but also where evidence supports creation. Yes, I have looked at both. I have read Darwin's book in the past and checked out numerous websites. While you noticed contradictions in the Bible, I became stuck on certain unexplained things in evolution such as I said before...life from non-life. And then even though millions and millions of years brought us from amoebas, this does seem harder to believe than a Creator.

 

I strongly suggest that you give both sides a good look. I can suggest Answers in Genesis as a place to look. Yes, they are Christian, but when you read Sagan, Asimov, Hawking, Dawkins, and of course Darwin...their whole assumption is that there can be no God. When one looks at the world with that in mind, then anything that supports the idea will be ignored. When one says that both are a possibility, then everything is looked at without bias.

 

As for athiests and agnostics "being lost," I think you can understand where that comes from. If you do not believe in a God and at the end we find that that God IS the Creator and Supreme Ruler, then I find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't believe Him will be going to Heaven. That doesn't mean you are less of person, it simply means that...shall we say gently...the non-believer doesn't hold the ticket to eternal life.

 

Again, you seem intelligent and open minded. I truly enjoy discussions with people like you. I don't profess to have all of the answers.

[alphamale]

If you do not believe in a God and at the end we find that that God IS the Creator and Supreme Ruler, then I find it hard to believe that someone who doesn't believe Him will be going to Heaven. That doesn't mean you are less of person, it simply means that...shall we say gently...the non-believer doesn't hold the ticket to eternal life. .

WTF are you talking about JM?? All the non-believers will be grand-fathered in no matter what, along with everyone else.

[Rooster_DAR]

life from non-life. And then even though millions and millions of years brought us from amoebas, this does seem harder to believe than a Creator.

 

I can understand not understanding if that makes sense. One thing to keep in mind is that is was not millions of years, were talking billions of years. We are talking about a timespan that we can't yet comprehend. The human race has not been around long enough to tackle all of these questions, but I'm quite sure we will get answers in the future. Considering all the building blocks of life are scattered all over the known universe, it' makes sense that give a huge amount of time life can and did evolve from these elements.

 

It took more than 3 and a half billion years (estimated) for life to evolve from simple life forms to complex life forms. Once the complex life forms had coalesced, life really took of and is demonstrated by the Cambrian explosion. This suggests that life is not just mereley thrown together with great ease, the right environment and billions of years seem to be the key ingredient. Evolution is a fact, but to what extent is what everybody is questioning. If you look at the fossil records and compare our early ancestors skeletons with life as we know it now, you can actually see the transition (transitional forms) of these early mamals in life now. Fundamenally, we are direct ancestors to the dinosaurs, as dinosaurs are to ocean dwellers.

 

Yes, I agree that I should read some of the literature you are talking about and I will with open mind. I still maintain that believing something based on faith is not nearly as powerful as the evidence science is discovering. People seem to think science is somehow trying to prove God wrong, and that is simply not the case, it's mereley stumbling upon contradicting evidence. Science is discovering the universe we live in by looking at direct evidence. To me even theory is more powerful than faith, because many theories are based on known evidence that points toward a possible correct conclusion, although not totally proved yet.

 

 

P.S. FACT! Apes such as monkey and gorilla's DNA is so close to ours, there are almost no differences between them. Hmmmm

[JamesM]

FACT! Apes such as monkey and gorilla's DNA is so close to ours, there are almost no differences between them. Hmmmm

 

Perhaps they had the same Creator?

 

Yes, I agree that I should read some of the literature you are talking about and I will with open mind.

 

If you were brought up like I was, there was no evidence supplied as to why there was a Creator. It wasn't until the past ten years or so that I discovered such a wealth of info that gives the Creation perspective.

 

Good luck in your quest.

[dropdeadlegs]

WTF are you talking about JM?? All the non-believers will be grand-fathered in no matter what, along with everyone else.

Alpha, I am interested in hearing why you believe this because I pretty much know why JamesM does. Please expound because I find this thread very interesting and confess that I have many questions concerning the issues of "creation" and "evolution." No, I haven't made finding answers to my questions a big priority, but of late I do find myself questioning even more.

 

I am interested in hearing all points of view. Last summer I found myself reading The DaVinci Code and Left Behind in the same week. Boy, that opened up a lot of questions. I have done some basic research in religions other than Christianity and have always found my self asking can I believe in a religion that does not believe that Jesus was the son of God, was born of a virgin birth, and was sent to pay the price of my sins so that I may enjoy eternal life? I also recognize that it may just go to what I have always been led to believe and wonder if I had been born into a different religion would I feel differently? The answer to that for me is probably "yes." The Dalai Lama looks so happy and peaceful and I often wish I had the inner peace he seems to have found.

 

CardPlay3r, I know I have not addressed your question at all simply because I do not have an answer. The more I try to educate myself the more confusing I find it all. I believe in God, but I'm not certain as to why. I have not had an epiphany or sudden "knowing," I just believe. I have even questioned why those who do not believe begin believing just to be safe rather than sorry, which I don't even think is possible.

 

For the record, my mother was Christian (Presbyterian) and my father was agnostic/atheist, I was never really sure which. I did find it interesting that he told me yesterday that he read the Left behind series too. Maybe he is uncertain too?

 

Anyway, I like to hear the thoughts and theories of anyone interested in sharing their take on God/religion.

[Storyrider]

My husband, a practicing Catholic, read the first Left Behind book and thought the concept was good but said the writing was terrible. I never picked it up for that reason.

 

(And also because of this little piece of unintentional humor on the part of the publisher--The book cover, with the text LEFT BEHIND and the illustration of this big, pinkish circular orb, gives the impression that someone is mooning you!! )

 

That being said, I have heard the plot of the story is quite intriguing and thought provoking.

[alphamale]

Alpha, I am interested in hearing why you believe this because I pretty much know why JamesM does. Please expound because I find this thread very interesting and confess that I have many questions concerning the issues of "creation" and "evolution." .

well DDL, I'm agnostic myself but if God does exist along with heaven and hell then there is no way that God would keep people out of heaven. I mean, come on....many peoples lives have just totally sucked big time, why would God deny them eternal happiness and peace? No "God" can be that cruel and sick (assuming there is one). Under my plan everyone goes to heaven no matter what they did during their lifetime.

[Rooster_DAR]

No "God" can be that cruel and sick (assuming there is one). Under my plan everyone goes to heaven no matter what they did during their lifetime.

 

I agree as well. Any kind of God what would condemn a person because they had no proof of God is downright cruel. Why would you want to worship an entity like this?