Moose Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Very interesting read. However, I'd like to remind you that these are your opinions, conclusions. Do you think it's fair to denounce everything else and claim this to be absolute like you did? I think not, and usually, when people do, they will either get flamed or ignored. In matters such as this, I think it's important that you make it clear that these are your thoughts alone, and not absolutes...... Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Do you think it's fair to denounce everything else and claim this to be absolute like you did? my bad. sorry, i tend to speak in absolutes and assume everyone will know whatever i say is, of course, just my opinion. so to clarify, everything said above is just my opinion. although i have to say, not all opinions are equal. i would tend to give more credence to the opinion of someone who could articulate the reasons behind their thinking, than to someone who couldn't. but i don't say that to try to pursuade, just to show that i value people who think deeply about their beliefs, and i include you in that category, moose. (although that's just my opinion ) Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 my bad. sorry, i tend to speak in absolutes and assume everyone will know whatever i say is, of course, just my opinion. so to clarify, everything said above is just my opinion. although i have to say, not all opinions are equal. i would tend to give more credence to the opinion of someone who could articulate the reasons behind their thinking, than to someone who couldn't. but i don't say that to try to pursuade, just to show that i value people who think deeply about their beliefs, and i include you in that category, moose. (although that's just my opinion )You're awesome BT......but you prolly knew that already...... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Love Hurts Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 slowly and thoughtfully and through prayer and a longing to know the truth, as i try to come to all my conclusions. i looked at the scripture from paul's first letter to the thessalonians, which is generally translated literally to suggest that there will be an imminent physical meeting 'in the air' between jesus and the righteous. paul believed that the second coming would happen in his lifetime. throughout his writings he speaks with an eschatological slant - with the expectation that the end times were right around the corner. in 1 corinthians ch 7 vs29-31 he says the time is so short that believers should drastically change the way they live. now clearly, the second coming didn't happen in the way the bible-writers imagined. now you can say that the letters were misinterpreted, but if you believe that the word of god in the bible is complete and always right, that puts you in a tough spot. even jesus (luke ch 21 v32 is a good example) described the time he was living in as the 'days of vengeance', spoke of himself 'coming in a cloud of glory' and promised that the current generation would not pass away until this had been fulfilled. yet... those things didn't happen then and they have consistently failed to happen for 2,000 years. how can we explain that? well, one way is to NOT do what other people have done and wait their whole lives for something that never happens. i don't think god wants us to hope for something that doesn't arrive. i think god wants the kingdom of god to be manifest on earth right now, but he won't do it for us. our job on earth is to manifest the kingdom. we do this by living in the way jesus described. so there is something not right about the belief in rapture. either the words of jesus have been misinterpreted or minsunderstood, or he lied. or perhaps he has been quoted correctly and the fact that 2,000 years and many generations have passed shows that even jesus doesn't know god's time scale. but armed with these thoughts, i started wondering (asking god), if there was another way to read the scriptures that spoke about the second coming. and i believe there is. jesus came to raise the consciousness of humankind. he came to tell people that the kingdom of god is within them (his statement that the kingdom of god comes NOT through observation would also seem to back up the fact there will be no rapture). so i believe that the second coming of christ will be a raising in consciousness of people. it will be an internal coming. it will be a mass awakening to jesus' true teachings and it will be us, working on earth for god, his power flowing through us, building the kingdom of god on earth. the idea of rapture is, to me, against the spirit of the teachings of jesus and of the god i know in my heart. the idea that if we are 'saved' we can just sit around and wait for our reward is out of line with those teachings. i believe jesus came to be an example we need to follow and there are numerous references in scripture that back this up. john ch 14 v12 is a prime example of jesus saying he that believes in me, the works that i do he too will do. so if we believe in christ, if we truly embody those teachings, we too can perform the works that he did. and what were those works? raising the dead. walking on water. healing the sick. can we do that yet? no?? then we're not fully believing in him. we're not fully absorbing those teachings yet. if we say we are, well, we're making jesus out to be a liar. it's interesting to me to put the realisation that we clearly do not believe in jesus fully, with the statement that jesus is 'the way, the truth and the life'. if true belief in jesus will cause us to be able to do the works that he did, and we can't do those works yet, are we fully christian? jesus doesn't say 'accept me and you will be saved' anywhere in scripture. jesus says 'i am the way' and i believe that means 'being like me is the way'. he also says that believing in him means being able to do miracles. if you take that literally, no one is a true christian, no one is a believer in christ and in that case you'd better hope the rapture doesn't come yet. it seems to me that the central tenet of jesus' teachings is a need to change our hearts, to change the way we see and treat each other and to become like him. it just doesn't then make sense to me that god will one day, without warning, effectively save people who have not become like jesus, who will save people who do not believe in jesus - since as jesus told us himself the mark of believing in him is to be able to do the works that he did, and even greater works. so, to conclude, if you take the bible literally, none of us are true believers in him because by jesus' definition of the word believer, we can't do what he did. so since we have not progressed to the state yet where we can truly be like jesus, ending the world would be pointless if only because everyone would be left behind. mostly, i don't believe in the rapture because god is no respecter of persons. just because people think the rapture is going to happen, it doesn't mean it is. if a powerful and godly man like st paul couldn't make it happen by believing in it, no one can. and history tells me that there MUST be another way to interpret the second coming of christ since the literal 'cloud' version hasn't happened yet. to hold out for some reward, for some event to take you away and to magic you into the kingdom of god is in no way constructive to building the kingdom of god on earth, which is what we are supposed to be doing with our lives. personally, i don't want to waste mine waiting for neverland. i want to help god out practically by being like jesus, helping to build the kingdom of god on earth NOW through my actions and through allowing god to work through me. the opportunity to do that is heaven enough and reward enough for me. Bluetuesday, How about we have a thread for Rapture; Pre and Post all its own. I plan on starting one. It’s a topic of interest to you and myself as well; hopefully others will input their beliefs on it. God Bless Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hey Love Hurts.... Thank you sooooo much for the prayer....I got myself involved in an EA with a MM....my story is all over the OW/OM forum....after months of no contact and being basically stalked by the MM I finally wrote him in no uncertain terms to leave me alone.....so then his family began their attack. Go figure, you'd think everyone would be happy that I was gone, BUT they were all upset because now their little games were over....they have nothing to investigate any longer, and he lost his little toy....I was a toy to all of them...game over. The last threat was his wife writing me a crude and threatening email to my job last night...I showed it to my supervisor and he told me to forward it to my manager.....today all of the managers got together and notified security....there will mostlikely be an investigation. They have all been so supportive, it's blowing my mind....especially my supervisor.... This thing from the start was a tool meant for my destruction and that is why they all faught me so hard after I had been out of it.....see how the enemy likes to keep us in bondage!!!!! Oh and also the Lord showed me some things tonight, He showed me your situation and for me to be aware....the Lord showed me that MM would try to set a trap for me.... Once again....thank you Love Hurts....the Lord told me last night to ask you to pray, and I completely believe that it was your prayer, directed by God that broke this final yoke of bongage....(((((((((hugs))))))))) Link to post Share on other sites
Author Love Hurts Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Pureinheart I so Praise Jesus to hear He is working and moving in your life; steps ahead of the enemy. There are times when I get weary in my walk of faith and God reinforces and encourages me. Praise Jesus…. The Lord has encouraged me through you. Just hearing the power of prayer has reached out and performed; an obvious positive action in your life: has likewise come back to my life. What Joy to know of the Lord moving in your behalf. We unfortunately do not always get to hear the good news of the Power of Prayer. It’s the Real Good News that lifts our spirits high when we are privy to hear; Yes! Prayer has and does change things! Praise Jesus for the Power of Prayer… Yes... Prayer Changes Things. One Day At a Time Sweet Jesus. Link to post Share on other sites
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