To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[NoIDidn't]

I hope I don't change the tone of this thread too much, but I had to add this.

 

I think that society is RIGHT to say that a man leaves not just his M but his family and kids. That is exactly what usually happens. Especially when the kids are young. Women/Mothers are the family caretakers and when the man leaves, he doesn't come back to cook and clean. He's not there to care for little Johnny or Suzy when they are sick, mom does.

 

In this male dominated society, men created those rules of being the HEAD of their family. Well, when the HEAD leaves, then what? And to blame the W for so called "using the kids as pawns"? Some do, some don't. But what exactly is a MM doing when he states "I'm staying for the kids". Difference is, the kids don't know that he is still using them. And these men are putting the kids in the middle as well. Let's face it, the kids will be in the middle no matter HOW they are used in this sitch.

 

I think a MM is a HUGE coward to say that he is staying for the kids and having an A. If he really cared more for his kids and less for his social status and all the trappings, he would do what it took to either fix his M "for the kids" and himself and his W. Or, he would get a divorce. Because to do this to your family, is inexcusable. These men simply lack the courage and imagine to make co-parenting work. Pure laziness and selfishness. The needs and consideration for their kids isn't thought of. Just themselves. IMHO.

 

This is a sore spot for me too, but for different reasons. My dad was NEVER there for me. It wasn't even like I was given a second thought. He and my mom not being together, basically meant, he didn't have to continue being my father. So yeah, he left THE FAMILY. That and he went out and started another family. And cheated/s on THAT family too. Go figure. <end rant LOL>

[bonehead]

I think that society is RIGHT to say that a man leaves not just his M but his family and kids. That is exactly what usually happens. Especially when the kids are young. Women/Mothers are the family caretakers and when the man leaves, he doesn't come back to cook and clean. He's not there to care for little Johnny or Suzy when they are sick, mom does.

 

I will agree with you on alot of this.

 

SOCIETY also places the pressure of parenting on the MOTHER. Its whats expected of the mother, while the dad provides.

 

I know I had it easy due to my work hours, but come on, dads need to take a more active roles in the lives of their children. We should EXPECT it. I was the one who went to school functions. It was amazin gthe number of dads I saw there. Almost NONE!!!

 

But then we also have to look at the court system. FOC earned its nick name. No one really wants to fight for a fathers rights, yet if your mom the world drops at you feet to help you out.

 

This needs to change.

[NoIDidn't]

I was the one who went to school functions. It was amazin gthe number of dads I saw there. Almost NONE!!!

 

Yeah, I bet the father's you DID see were mostly divorced or separated. The ones that are "staying for the kids" continue to let mom handle it. One of me and my H's closest friends is D'd and has his kids all the time. If he is awake and not working, he is with his kids. Period.

 

I simply think you really have to be a fool to buy that "staying for the kids" argument, when he is not doing anything extra for said kids. The MM in these cases should really call it, "staying for the free babysitter". Lazy, selfish, a**holes. LOL!!

[bonehead]

Yeah, I bet the father's you DID see were mostly divorced or separated. The ones that are "staying for the kids" continue to let mom handle it. One of me and my H's closest friends is D'd and has his kids all the time. If he is awake and not working, he is with his kids. Period.

 

I simply think you really have to be a fool to buy that "staying for the kids" argument, when he is not doing anything extra for said kids. The MM in these cases should really call it, "staying for the free babysitter". Lazy, selfish, a**holes. LOL!!

 

But I also think som eof them are staying because of fear over the way men have been treated by the courts.

[frannie]

I agree with you. The wife SHOULD have a say in whether she wants to stay just for the kids, too.

 

But for a man who truly loves his kids, the thought of the possibility of what happened to my father enters his mind, he thinks twice about leaving. Some men, probably most all men, couldn't bear to have their children hate them.

 

Sorry to hear about what happened when your parents got divorced.

 

That's exactly the fear that my MM talks about when he talks about leaving... how she will react, what she'll tell the children (they're 10 and 11), and how they'll think of him. And as bonehead said: It's also the reactions and the way others talk about it - you left your children. No man (or woman) wants to be accused of that, especially when you cannot be sure how divorce will affect them. And I also agree with what someone else (sorry, can't remember who it was on Page 1) said about it's not necessarily 'for the children' exactly... but because the MM does NOT want to become a part-time Dad. No more family Christmases? No more seeing them in 'their home'... yes, everyone will get used to new arrangements in time, but the thought of it is sickening.

 

It's easy to say, 'children are resilient blah blah'... no doubt they are, but it's far more than that that makes it VERY HARD indeed for a MM to end a marriage... the children are a huge consideration from many angles.

 

But back to the original point: is it also the W's choice to decide whether she wants a M based solely on 'for the children'? Well this is really another version of 'should the wife be told', and the usual applies... whose responsibility is it to tell, and when, and for what reasons..? And who is going to make that decision, and on what grounds..? If you decided 'truth is best' (especially as the OW), you're disrespecting the man you're involved in, whose real place it is to inform his W of his actions and desires. If you love that man and want a future with him, exposing him like this against his better judgment (whatever you think of it) is likely to win you his complete disregard forever.

 

None of this is straightforward, and none of it is easy. I can't believe that there are many rules that can be applied hard and fast where these situations are concerned.

[frannie]

ysm you are right, it isnt just one person's choice, but when the W does not know that is what is going on, then how can she make the right choice for her? i think my MM thinks he is doing right by his kids right now, but he is not doing right by her.

 

I agree with this... my MM is not doing the right thing by his W either. I won't try and justify this and back him up because I think he's wrong to go behind her back. But having said that, his choice is between what he thinks is right for his children, and what is 'best' for his W. She's an adult... if she doesn't like the relationship as it is, she has the option to divorce him. But she's dead set against divorce on moral and other grounds, so she wouldn't do that. I can see a kicking-and-screaming situation looming when he finally does tell her. But, all that aside yes... he's mistreating her and it's not right. But, you can't do 'best' for both W and children, and so you chose what you think is best for the children (imho).

[noforgiveness]

yousaveme you are acting like everything is fine in your situation and it's all out in the open wit the wife but from everything I've read your MM played the tail between his leg game and told the wife you were gone and he wanted to save his marriage.

 

Are you now saying that his wife knows he is still with you allthe time and is now choosing to ignore it? Are you in the open? Can you call your MM when you like?

 

Just cause you were caught once and she gave him a pass to work on the marriage does not mean she thinks it's ok. I have a feeling if you get causght again he will be kicked to the curb or you will again until he feels it's safe to go back to his little secret romance.

[frannie]

Yeah, I bet the father's you DID see were mostly divorced or separated. The ones that are "staying for the kids" continue to let mom handle it. One of me and my H's closest friends is D'd and has his kids all the time. If he is awake and not working, he is with his kids. Period.

 

I simply think you really have to be a fool to buy that "staying for the kids" argument, when he is not doing anything extra for said kids. The MM in these cases should really call it, "staying for the free babysitter". Lazy, selfish, a**holes. LOL!!

 

Well that's one way of looking at it, and I do have a lot of sympathy with the view.

 

On the other hand, a man who has been the one to work and pay for just about everything can hardly be accused of keeping a 'free' babysitter. But never mind that...

 

I wanted to talk about my MM in particular. He has a job that takes him travelling around the country most of the time, and staying in hotels... being a full-time Dad (and even a part-time one) IS going to be very difficult. It's just not a case of 'being there' when you weren't before... some people's careers just don't allow for that kind of presence. I'm not saying that's any kind of excuse for not doing your best, but you have to look at the practicalities of these things, and how easy they are to change, how work can possibly accommodate new commitments. How can you collect children from school and give them tea when you're 200 miles away in another city?

 

'Letting Mom handle it' is the way they've lived their lives so far... she's been as happy as possible to have a part-time job that fits around the children's school hours... that's how marriages are a lot of the time... that's how bringing up children can work. (not saying it's the only way, but it's a very common way). Now... as easy as it is to say he is copping out by not being there at school-out time, by the same token she doesn't (and won't) want to go out and get a better-paid job in order to pull her weight in a different way in future... it will be change for both of them. It's really not fair to place all the blame on the male of the house because he's not got a job that allows that kind of flexibility. It's an arrangement they've been living with for years... and it will take agreement from both of them to make another situation workable.

 

Plus... if she's going to expect to have the mortgage on the house she will continue to live in paid, and child maintenance, as is her right, it's not going to happen that he can suddenly down-size and be there for them at appropriate times... how will the bills get paid..?

[noforgiveness]

The situations being discussed about the kids is exactly what my EX best friend was doing. She was using the kids and threatening the husband with the kids. It was sickening and the kids really got hurt. I continually told her not to and so my support sucked. I did not tell hr what she needed to hear but my husband did.

 

I will never use my kids in a situation like that. I will always want my kids to still respect their dad. He's been an amazing father. I will protect my kids at all costs but not to the cost of staying in a dead marriage. That's not protecting them. Kids need to see healthy loving relationships so they know what is in their future. So they don't accept anything less in their lives.

 

Parents can separate without being drug through the mud.

[Guest]

I get so tired of married people who have affairs saying "well I have to stay married because of the kids". That's just a lie. If you cared so much about the damn kids you wouldn't cheat in the first place. I feel it's just an excuse and what they really mean is - "I'm staying married because I don't want to lose all my s*it, move out of my nice home into an apartment, not have as much money to spend on me and most of all keep up the same fake appearance we show to society". It's never really about the kids.

[yousaveme]

I think this a true statement for some fathers. I love my dad. He is no longer around. But he never was at any of school functions etc. But then there are those fathers that go the extra mile for their kids. They are out there. Those fathers do stay for the kids. My MM is one of those. Im not saying this because i'm involved with him. But he truly is. He does more with the kids then she does. He is at every function. Every game. Everything. He doesnt miss anything and is very close with the kids.

 

 

 

Yeah, I bet the father's you DID see were mostly divorced or separated. The ones that are "staying for the kids" continue to let mom handle it. One of me and my H's closest friends is D'd and has his kids all the time. If he is awake and not working, he is with his kids. Period.

 

I simply think you really have to be a fool to buy that "staying for the kids" argument, when he is not doing anything extra for said kids. The MM in these cases should really call it, "staying for the free babysitter". Lazy, selfish, a**holes. LOL!!

[yousaveme]

Im sure you read everything about me. Seems like everytime I turn around your right there.

 

The only reason she the W wanted him to stay was for the kids. She knows he doesnt love her she knows that his heart is with me. Yes we got caught , no im not out in the open. THERE are two kids involved that as far as anyone knows think everything is fine. No one wants to rock their world until they feel they are at a place that they can better handle it.

 

As for the W she knows that there is a certain time when He is leaving. She has said it to him.

 

 

yousaveme you are acting like everything is fine in your situation and it's all out in the open wit the wife but from everything I've read your MM played the tail between his leg game and told the wife you were gone and he wanted to save his marriage.

 

Are you now saying that his wife knows he is still with you allthe time and is now choosing to ignore it? Are you in the open? Can you call your MM when you like?

 

Just cause you were caught once and she gave him a pass to work on the marriage does not mean she thinks it's ok. I have a feeling if you get causght again he will be kicked to the curb or you will again until he feels it's safe to go back to his little secret romance.

[yousaveme]

Your right parents can separate without going through hell. But that is what certain MM have to deal with. There are W's out there ( my mm's w included) that use the kids against the father. Doesnt matter if he is a good father. She will tell the kids " look he didnt leave me , he left all of us." Most fathers when they leave cant take the kids with them , they stay with the mother. And if she is bitter enough she will use the one thing that means the most to the father. The kids. So instead of having the kids go through that. They stay , they put on the act. Its ashame but it does happen.

 

 

The situations being discussed about the kids is exactly what my EX best friend was doing. She was using the kids and threatening the husband with the kids. It was sickening and the kids really got hurt. I continually told her not to and so my support sucked. I did not tell hr what she needed to hear but my husband did.

 

I will never use my kids in a situation like that. I will always want my kids to still respect their dad. He's been an amazing father. I will protect my kids at all costs but not to the cost of staying in a dead marriage. That's not protecting them. Kids need to see healthy loving relationships so they know what is in their future. So they don't accept anything less in their lives.

 

Parents can separate without being drug through the mud.

[sadbuttrue]

I agree with this... my MM is not doing the right thing by his W either. I won't try and justify this and back him up because I think he's wrong to go behind her back. But having said that, his choice is between what he thinks is right for his children, and what is 'best' for his W. She's an adult... if she doesn't like the relationship as it is, she has the option to divorce him. But she's dead set against divorce on moral and other grounds, so she wouldn't do that. I can see a kicking-and-screaming situation looming when he finally does tell her. But, all that aside yes... he's mistreating her and it's not right. But, you can't do 'best' for both W and children, and so you chose what you think is best for the children (imho).

 

frannie, i agree with you too, but my MM's W doesnt know he is having an A. the W does need to know, i could not be the one to tell her, because that would be a betrayal against him. he recently told me that i would have to talk to her if someone told her about us and she wanted to ask questions. i am expected to lie to her to her face, i told him this would be extremely difficult. he just doesnt see yet that this situation will never be the best for the children and i dont think he cares enough about her to see what it could do to her.

[frannie]

he recently told me that i would have to talk to her if someone told her about us and she wanted to ask questions. i am expected to lie to her to her face, i told him this would be extremely difficult.

 

woo I don't like the sound of that. He said that you would have to talk to her (and lie to her?) if she found out about the affair? That's hardly fair on you to expect that of you. But I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, and perhaps it's just the way you expressed it?

 

Possibly somewhat along the same lines: I've always told MM that I'm not happy with this: IF he leaves and we get together, I'm going to be in a position where I'll have to lie to his family about how we met, etc. and I'm hopeless at lying. I really don't think MM appreciates now NOT happy I am about this or how big an issue it would be for me. The only thing I can say is that we're planning on not telling anyone in mine or his family about 'us' for a good while after they separate... so perhaps the whole 'it started as an affair' thing won't mean so much in my mind down the line.

 

I'm just no good at lying to people's faces. Certainly couldn't do it if I was in the midst of an affair situation. The only reason I will be lying (if it comes to that) is that I don't think it's a great idea that his W or children know about this before the divorce is done and dusted and everyone is settled. It will be hard enough to get everything settled without the spectre of an affair (and an OW and a WS) to blame everything on.

 

I know that will massively annoy everyone preaching 'truth' all over the boards at the moment, but that's just the way it's going to be if either of us can make it happen. The way I see it is this: he's going to D her anyway, so what is the point of her knowing about an affair..? I have already told him, however, that IF he thinks it would be in everyone's best interest that she knows about me, to go ahead and tell her. I'm not bothered about anyone knowing per se, just the whole DRAMA and conflict that might arise, and the fact she'll have something to beat him over the head about for decades when they need to be concentrating on other things, like child access etc. At the end of the day, it's down to him to decide, and I'll just have to trust his judgment.

[sadbuttrue]

frannie, MM told me that i would HAVE to talk to his W if she asked because it would look suspicious if i refused. people are talking and i have no doubt that she will soon become aware of the rumors (it is a very small town). he of course does not want me to tell her that the rumors are true as he is staying in the marriage "for the kids." i told him it would be next to impossible for me to lie to her face without her seeing straight through me. there will be so much emotion going on i am sure, and i am not a good liar either

[frannie]

frannie, MM told me that i would HAVE to talk to his W if she asked because it would look suspicious if i refused. people are talking and i have no doubt that she will soon become aware of the rumors (it is a very small town). he of course does not want me to tell her that the rumors are true as he is staying in the marriage "for the kids." i told him it would be next to impossible for me to lie to her face without her seeing straight through me. there will be so much emotion going on i am sure, and i am not a good liar either

 

OK. I think he's putting you in a very bad position with this. If you don't want to lie you shouldn't have to. Are you saying you feel uncomfortable with this..? Is he insisting that you lie and you don't want to..? I get a small feeling that you might want the occasion to arise so she can find out..? Is there any truth to that..? Just wondering, not accusing you of anything.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

But, you can't do 'best' for both W and children, and so you chose what you think is best for the children (imho).

 

Ofcourse you can do what's best for both the wife and the children. You left out the most important part of that equation though. You CANNOT do what best for the MM, wife, and children. So who CHOSE the short stick? I don't know how you can respect a man who believes that he is justified in manipulating a person's (who he once made vows to) life so that he can have it all his way. That is not at all respectable in my book, infact, its detestable.

[sadbuttrue]

OK. I think he's putting you in a very bad position with this. If you don't want to lie you shouldn't have to. Are you saying you feel uncomfortable with this..? Is he insisting that you lie and you don't want to..? I get a small feeling that you might want the occasion to arise so she can find out..? Is there any truth to that..? Just wondering, not accusing you of anything.

 

frannie, he could never FORCE me to lie, but because of my feelings for him and the fact that i do not want to hurt him then i am sure i will do what he thinks is best concerning his W. at the same time, yes i think she should know, but i wont be the one to tell her. i do not like that she is unaware of what her H is doing. i know that when this comes out there will be a lot of pain for me, but it will be much worse for her. i just hate the anticipation of her finding out i guess. it is like i know it is coming but when?

[GreenEyedLady]

SBT: I'm with Frannie...you don't HAVE to do anything...I see what you mean about the why of it, but as soon as someone tells me I HAVE to do something, I suddenly have selective hearing...

[Chapter2]

My xMM is staying in his marriage for many reasons. One of the reasons that was glaringly obvious when we were friends for two years without even an inkling of an affair, emotional or otherwise, is that he stays for approval. The approval of his wife, his kids, his mother, his in-laws, but mostly the approval of his children. He's like a blown out egg when it comes to approval and he is in individual counseling to work on that among many other things. He knows he has a responsibility to his wife and his children and his commitment and he is working on it. It would be naive to think that he's not staying for his W at all. It's obviously bearable or he wouldn't be there anymore.

 

Another issue is fear. She very clearly stated on the phone with me that she would take his children as far away from their dad as she could and make it as difficult as possible for him to see them should he leave their marriage. When he leaves the house she asks (in front of the children) "are you off to see your girlfriend?"... she occasionally shows remourse later but the damage is done. These statements have been made long before there was a "me". She, understandably, still feels the need to punish him even after what she thinks has been NC for 10 months after her D-Day involving me. He still has not been truthful in telling her that it was also a physical affair that he reinstated one week after D-Day.

 

Another thing that plays into their scenario is that he is the only man she has ever had sex with. The thought of her being with anyone else sexually brings out huge territorial issues with him to which his counselor said, "that's not love, that's ownership". Fortunately, he is admitting these thoughts no matter how they make him look so he's hopefully dealing with them. His counselor is good from what he shared with me before we went final NC 3+ months ago.

 

Everybody's crap is different. But, HN, I agree, the wife continues to be made a fool of and deceived if the MM is indeed staying for the kids, but most likely there are many, many other reasons. I think it also depends on how many times they've been unfaithful and been allowed to stay or come home.

 

I can't speak to divorce. I've never been through it, but from what I understand from friends and family, it is absolutely gut wrenching irregardless of whether or not you are the one seeking it. I don't, in any way, mean to make light of it or generalize about how difficult it must be for anyone.

[frannie]

Ofcourse you can do what's best for both the wife and the children. You left out the most important part of that equation though. You CANNOT do what best for the MM, wife, and children. So who CHOSE the short stick? I don't know how you can respect a man who believes that he is justified in manipulating a person's (who he once made vows to) life so that he can have it all his way. That is not at all respectable in my book, infact, its detestable.

 

Well I think you kindof have a good point in that you theoretically can do 'the right thing' by W and children and leave yourself out of the equation completely. Who would want to do that, however? And would it work..? Self-sacrifice for the sake of keeping the family together..? It's a theory, and maybe some can do it, I can't comment on that.

 

I already said (not sure if it was on this thread or another one) that I don't think it's right to cheat on your partner, but then I'm not in a position to comment on that either really: I've never had to choose between living the life I want and making sure my children are OK, because I don't have any. I don't think he has been doing right by his W, of course he hasn't... but it's his W, he knows her, and he knows what he feels about her and the situation.

 

As far as lying so he can have it all his own way. Well, he's made a decision to leave in the New Year, but I'm not sure that makes it any less 'his own way' than staying married to a woman he doesn't love or want to be with. Do you really think he will have it 'all his own way' if he stays or if he goes? Either way it's a tough choice which you're making sound like a piece of cake (no pun intended whatsoever). I think you're suggesting he wants W, children AND me on the side as an ideal life situation? You're basing that on what? The reality is that he didn't decide that would be a great life plan: it's how things have evolved. You cannot possibly pass comment on a person or how 'respectable' their decisions are based on the tiny amount of information you have about their situation, but full marks for projecting or assuming or whatever it is you're doing.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Chapter 2, what I said is that I can't see how you can respect a man that lies to his wife for the purpose of keeping a mistress or any other secret that he knows would affect her. I would have no respect for a man who would choose to manipulate someone elses life for what he wanted. In fact you also tell OW who are not being treated "fairly" by their MM to wisen up about him - yet if by the same theory he is doing what makes himself happy the how does it matter that a mm is treating ow badly as long as he's happy (it is certainly respectable in your book that he treats his W this way)... right! Its a complete double standard. You stated that he couldn't possibly do what was in the best interest of the W and the kids. You completely ignored the fact that what he is doing is in neither of their best interest, only his and yours.

 

And yes, self-sacrifice is the ultimate for of love as evidenced by a crucifiction, if you believe in that sort of thing. It is imposible to be a partner in a relationship or a family without some type of self sacrifice. YOU know this, for you have sacrificed for him and as a mother you also know the importance. Its people who can't fathom self-sacrifice that I would steer clear of.

[herenow]

Here's the thing. If a MM has already decided that he would stay for the kids, he has nothing to lose by being honest with his wife. If she does pull the "I'll take the kids" card, then he stays and all remains the same, two unhappy people staying in a loveless marriage. But, he may find that his wife is as unhappy as he is and they may come up with a better solution for everyone. At least in that case, the wife is given the same choice in how to raise the kids as the MM.

 

Also, let's for the sake of what this thread is all about, replace the word wife with mother.

[herenow]

I think it's time to go get those party shoes now. I hope you all have a very happy New Year!