To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[frannie]

Chapter 2, what I said is that I can't see how you can respect a man that lies to his wife for the purpose of keeping a mistress or any other secret that he knows would affect her. I would have no respect for a man who would choose to manipulate someone elses life for what he wanted. In fact you also tell OW who are not being treated "fairly" by their MM to wisen up about him - yet if by the same theory he is doing what makes himself happy the how does it matter that a mm is treating ow badly as long as he's happy (it is certainly respectable in your book that he treats his W this way)... right! Its a complete double standard. You stated that he couldn't possibly do what was in the best interest of the W and the kids. You completely ignored the fact that what he is doing is in neither of their best interest, only his and yours.

 

And yes, self-sacrifice is the ultimate for of love as evidenced by a crucifiction, if you believe in that sort of thing. It is imposible to be a partner in a relationship or a family without some type of self sacrifice. YOU know this, for you have sacrificed for him and as a mother you also know the importance. Its people who can't fathom self-sacrifice that I would steer clear of.

 

 

Well this is addressed to Chapter2, but since we seem to be saying the same things (or are you getting confused between our posts?) I'll respond to this anyway

 

You say you can't respect a man who lies to his wife in order to keep a mistress secret. Well, that's entirely your opinion and you're entitled to it. Have you ever been in such a situation..? If you found your father or another family member or friend had done such a thing would you lose respect for them based on this? Perhaps you would, I don't know. My point is that it's easy to say 'this act means this person deserves no respect' when it's all hypothetical, but when real people are involved, I personally find it hard to take such a line. Real life situations are always far more complicated than moralistic theorising. But as I said: you are completely entitled to your point of view. I just don't share it (beyond what I've already said about how I don't agree with what he's doing to his wife).

 

The rest of what you're saying isn't exactly straightforward and is more theorising than is applicable to my situation... but I don't know for certain who it was addressing... as I say it seemed to be responding to several things I've said. But I also said I'm not a mother, so I'll leave aside the middle part of your post.

 

Self-sacrifice might be the ultimate love, I would agree: but sacrificing oneself entirely for another's happiness isn't conducive to a happy life. Unless you're a born martyr. A degree of mutual giving and comprimise is necessary for a healthy relationship. Sacrificing who you are for a significant other..? What for..? Or perhaps you didn't mean to come off sounding so extreme.

[frannie]

Here's the thing. If a MM has already decided that he would stay for the kids, he has nothing to lose by being honest with his wife. If she does pull the "I'll take the kids" card, then he stays and all remains the same, two unhappy people staying in a loveless marriage. But, he may find that his wife is as unhappy as he is and they may come up with a better solution for everyone. At least in that case, the wife is given the same choice in how to raise the kids as the MM.

 

Also, let's for the sake of what this thread is all about, replace the word wife with mother.

 

I don't really see what the point would be of saying to your spouse: "I'm staying for the kids". That's really just as much to say, I want to leave..? What's the point, if you want to stay?

 

Does everyone suddenly have to be 100% 'honest' about their reasons for being with someone else..? Does the W have to admit that she stays for comfort and so she has a regular income but never wants to be intimate with him again unless he gives her a sheepish look..?

 

What is all this 'truth' we've suddenly got to reveal? If everyone was honest about their partners and why they're with them there probably wouldn't be very many marriages surviving into the New Year. Would make a very funny movie actually

[frannie]

I think it's time to go get those party shoes now. I hope you all have a very happy New Year!

 

Blimey, you're starting early

 

Have a great time. And a Happy New Year to you too.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Your right, I am confused and addressed the wrong person. I thought I was replying to chapter 2, hence the mother stuff. Sacrificing another persons' happiness in order that you might persue yours and be unaffected by their response to it would be called what type of sacrifice? I call it selfishness. I'm confused as how one person becomes so very deserving in this situation. Everyone else (even you) pays for his happiness. Yes, I do mean to sound so extreme. HE is the only person not sacrificing (unless you call lying to his wife for his own benefit, expecting an OW to be part of the lying and the deceit - sacrificing who she is for a significant other- so that he might find HAPPINESS a sacrifice. Hmmm... I can't imagine putting someone I love in either of those situation for any reason, certainly not my own happiness. Frannie, with any luck you will never have to understand the from this from my point of view, but few actually get that lucky. Seems to me only one person's happiness is important here, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

[frannie]

Your right, I am confused and addressed the wrong person. I thought I was replying to chapter 2, hence the mother stuff. Sacrificing another persons' happiness in order that you might persue yours and be unaffected by their response to it would be called what type of sacrifice? I call it selfishness. I'm confused as how one person becomes so very deserving in this situation. Everyone else (even you) pays for his happiness. Yes, I do mean to sound so extreme. HE is the only person not sacrificing (unless you call lying to his wife for his own benefit, expecting an OW to be part of the lying and the deceit - sacrificing who she is for a significant other- so that he might find HAPPINESS a sacrifice. Hmmm... I can't imagine putting someone I love in either of those situation for any reason, certainly not my own happiness. Frannie, with any luck you will never have to understand the from this from my point of view, but few actually get that lucky. Seems to me only one person's happiness is important here, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

 

I'm not sure where all this idea of 'sacrifice' came into the picture. I'm sure I'm not deluded in any sense as to who is and isn't happy in this situation. I've already said, MM is NOT happy with the situation and neither am I, and we're planning on changing it. We're both very happy with each other and the relationship we have. I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything at all, really.

 

Who do you think is sacrificing what? What am I sacrificing..? I have a feeling that you're generalising and making assumptions based on things that you think I should be wanting and I'm not getting (?). But I'm not sure it's entirely relevant... not meaning to sound rude, but as I've said earlier, this is our relationship, our MM-OW situation and I'm not asking for advice and I don't feel unhappy about anything. And I'm certainly not going to change what I'm doing based on anything someone on a forum thinks about my MM, or me. As I say, not meaning that to sound as rude and blunt as it comes over in print.

 

Regarding putting people he loves in particular situations... well, I suppose that shows that he doesn't love her (not in any way I'd want to be loved). And me..? Well, I'm an adult and I not only am aware of the situation I'm in, but I freely choose to be in it. No one is 'putting me in this situation'.

[frannie]

Seems to me only one person's happiness is important here, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

 

Well, as a single adult with no children, I make my own choices regarding my happiness. And oddly enough, I'm very happy in general.

 

Sorry that you can't see that

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Well, I WAS generalizing about the OM OW BS triangle. Wasn't offering advice, durn sure don't think its possible to change the mind of someone who justifies their actions based on what makes them happy. Would be a crazy place to live if everyone did that. The one person's happiness I was talking about was MM's. From what I have read from OW here, that is the general theme eventually. This is the second time we have been through this on similar threads though. I just see no respect in manipulating another persons life so that you can have what you want. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Glad your happy.

[Guest]

I don't really see what the point would be of saying to your spouse: "I'm staying for the kids". That's really just as much to say, I want to leave..? What's the point, if you want to stay?

 

Does everyone suddenly have to be 100% 'honest' about their reasons for being with someone else..? Does the W have to admit that she stays for comfort and so she has a regular income but never wants to be intimate with him again unless he gives her a sheepish look..?

 

What is all this 'truth' we've suddenly got to reveal? If everyone was honest about their partners and why they're with them there probably wouldn't be very many marriages surviving into the New Year. Would make a very funny movie actually

 

I don't see a problem with being honest about why you are with someone.

[GreenEyedLady]

Well, I WAS generalizing about the OM OW BS triangle. Wasn't offering advice, durn sure don't think its possible to change the mind of someone who justifies their actions based on what makes them happy. Would be a crazy place to live if everyone did that. The one person's happiness I was talking about was MM's. From what I have read from OW here, that is the general theme eventually. This is the second time we have been through this on similar threads though. I just see no respect in manipulating another persons life so that you can have what you want. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Glad your happy.

 

IWWH I have to disagree here...EVERYONE justifies their actions based on what makes them happy to some extent...otherwise why would we choose the career we do or start a family or even keep a family together...why would we choose anything if it didn't lead to (or the possibility of)happiness in some form or another for ourselves or others...

 

As for the manipulation part of your post, everyone has a choice, so where is the manipulation?

[frannie]

Well, I WAS generalizing about the OM OW BS triangle. Wasn't offering advice, durn sure don't think its possible to change the mind of someone who justifies their actions based on what makes them happy. Would be a crazy place to live if everyone did that. The one person's happiness I was talking about was MM's. From what I have read from OW here, that is the general theme eventually. This is the second time we have been through this on similar threads though. I just see no respect in manipulating another persons life so that you can have what you want. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. Glad your happy.

 

I know what one person's happiness you were talking about, and as I said, generalising is all very well, but it doesn't really bear close examination. Neither do vague comments about "people who justify their actions based on their own happiness". OF COURSE there are plenty of other factors to be taken into account, only they don't fit with the generalised dismissal of entire situations. Heaven save you from someone trying to sum up/dismiss your entire character based on one thing you did once.

 

I'm glad I'm happy too, and thanks.

[frannie]

IWWH I have to disagree here...EVERYONE justifies their actions based on what makes them happy to some extent...otherwise why would we choose the career we do or start a family or even keep a family together...why would we choose anything if it didn't lead to (or the possibility of)happiness in some form or another for ourselves or others...

 

As for the manipulation part of your post, everyone has a choice, so where is the manipulation?

 

I agree with the first part of what you've written here. But regarding the second part, I think IWWH was referring to MM not being honest with W about only staying for the children. Actually this is ironic given that my MM ISN'T staying for the children, but somehow my MM is now the poster child for this (basically because I got involved in the debate!)

 

Again ironically, I actually agree with people who say it's not fair on the W to do this. But where IWWH took issue with me was when I said that MM can't do 'what's best' for both W AND children. I stand by that, and my argument was that MM shouldn't have to give up his own happiness (i.e. give up on the (currently) affair and future with me) just because it would be best for his W. At least I think that's what the debate was about...

[GreenEyedLady]

But regarding the second part, I think IWWH was referring to MM not being honest with W about only staying for the children.

 

Thanks Frannie, I didn't get that part of it, but i do now:) ...

[Chapter2]

I'm not sure who or what you are referring to as I wasn't referrring to any of your posts...all I did was post on my own experience without having read the entire thread...

 

I stated he couldn't possibly do what was in the best interest of the kids? I'm sorry, when did I state that? I am very confused by your post. If you knew anything about me, you'd know I put a stop to my affair months ago and no, I do not have a double standard.

 

Were you possibly meaning to reply to someone else's post?

 

Chapter 2, what I said is that I can't see how you can respect a man that lies to his wife for the purpose of keeping a mistress or any other secret that he knows would affect her. I would have no respect for a man who would choose to manipulate someone elses life for what he wanted. In fact you also tell OW who are not being treated "fairly" by their MM to wisen up about him - yet if by the same theory he is doing what makes himself happy the how does it matter that a mm is treating ow badly as long as he's happy (it is certainly respectable in your book that he treats his W this way)... right! Its a complete double standard. You stated that he couldn't possibly do what was in the best interest of the W and the kids. You completely ignored the fact that what he is doing is in neither of their best interest, only his and yours.

 

And yes, self-sacrifice is the ultimate for of love as evidenced by a crucifiction, if you believe in that sort of thing. It is imposible to be a partner in a relationship or a family without some type of self sacrifice. YOU know this, for you have sacrificed for him and as a mother you also know the importance. Its people who can't fathom self-sacrifice that I would steer clear of.

[Chapter2]

You thought you were replying to me? At what point did I say a single word about sacrificing another persons' happiness? Good Lord, being the xOW has me so jacked up that I don't even recognize what I've posted, but I feel pretty sure that I didn't post anything that you are referring to.

 

You say again here that you thought you were replying to Chapter2????? I think you are referring to a different poster and if not I'd appreciate you pointing out where I posted what you are referring to.

 

Your right, I am confused and addressed the wrong person. I thought I was replying to chapter 2, hence the mother stuff. Sacrificing another persons' happiness in order that you might persue yours and be unaffected by their response to it would be called what type of sacrifice? I call it selfishness. I'm confused as how one person becomes so very deserving in this situation. Everyone else (even you) pays for his happiness. Yes, I do mean to sound so extreme. HE is the only person not sacrificing (unless you call lying to his wife for his own benefit, expecting an OW to be part of the lying and the deceit - sacrificing who she is for a significant other- so that he might find HAPPINESS a sacrifice. Hmmm... I can't imagine putting someone I love in either of those situation for any reason, certainly not my own happiness. Frannie, with any luck you will never have to understand the from this from my point of view, but few actually get that lucky. Seems to me only one person's happiness is important here, I'm sorry that you can't see that.

[Chapter2]

I get it now....nevermind. Thanks for the PM IWWH:)

 

You thought you were replying to me? At what point did I say a single word about sacrificing another persons' happiness? Good Lord, being the xOW has me so jacked up that I don't even recognize what I've posted, but I feel pretty sure that I didn't post anything that you are referring to.

 

You say again here that you thought you were replying to Chapter2????? I think you are referring to a different poster and if not I'd appreciate you pointing out where I posted what you are referring to.

[frannie]

Phew... glad that's all sorted out. More or less

[herenow]

What I'm saying is that the MM isn't the only parent and should not be making choices by himself as to what is best for the kids. It's also not his place to decide for his wife (the mother of the kids) to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to. How is it that he has the right to run everyones lives with lies and deceit?

 

The fact is, he is not thinking about the kids at all, he is doing what is best for himself. He does not care about the effect his decisions have on the kids, their mother and yes the OW. The only person that benefits is the MM.

 

Frannie, I respectfully disagree with you. I think that people should be 100% honest with each other about how they feel. What a sad situation it would be if we were unable to be honest with the people we love. At what point do you just start lying to yourself and give up reality entirely? I believe in true love and I believe that it's honest. I think that if more people were honest with each other, there would be no need for boards like these. I think it would be a tragedy and not a very funny movie if what you say is true and most marriages are based on lies.

 

BTW, there is nothing sudden about people wanting the truth. It's always been there.

[frannie]

What I'm saying is that the MM isn't the only parent and should not be making choices by himself as to what is best for the kids. It's also not his place to decide for his wife (the mother of the kids) to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to. How is it that he has the right to run everyones lives with lies and deceit?

 

The fact is, he is not thinking about the kids at all, he is doing what is best for himself. He does not care about the effect his decisions have on the kids, their mother and yes the OW. The only person that benefits is the MM.

 

Frannie, I respectfully disagree with you. I think that people should be 100% honest with each other about how they feel. What a sad situation it would be if we were unable to be honest with the people we love. At what point do you just start lying to yourself and give up reality entirely? I believe in true love and I believe that it's honest. I think that if more people were honest with each other, there would be no need for boards like these. I think it would be a tragedy and not a very funny movie if what you say is true and most marriages are based on lies.

 

BTW, there is nothing sudden about people wanting the truth. It's always been there.

 

Perhaps MM isn't the only one who should be making decisions about what is best for the children. I'm not sure anyone ever said that. But a MM, and anyone else for that matter, has a complete right to keep quiet about, not reveal, and not even think about their reasons for staying in a marriage. They also have a complete right to stay married to someone they don't love, if that's what they want to do (as long as the spouse wants to stay married also, for their own reasons).

 

I think my first post on this thread said words to the effect you use in this post: he's not staying for the children. That is a phrase often rattled off, which doesn't in any way cover what the real reasons connected with the children are. As I said in my first post, they're to do with reputation, with how you're perceived as someone who 'deserted their children', with not wishing to be a part-time Dad, with indecision as to whether the children (and the W) will handle the divorce and how selfless the W will be about access and not poisoning the children's minds against the father. ALL of these things were bought up in the first pages of the thread. It truly isn't, and people on this thread haven't made it about 'staying for the children' - that's just a phrase. It's much more like 50% of it is staying because the children exist. And in my opinion that's a valid reason to continue a marriage. Marriage isn't all about romantic love and togetherness, let's not forget.

 

But you don't disagree with me, because I too think that if you're going to have a good relationship with someone I believe you really have to be honest with them. I'm not talking about good relationships though. I'm talking about a marriage where the people concerned have drifted apart, have no mutual respect, and no longer love each other. That's a whole different scenario. It's also something that is between MM and his W, and I really can't comment too much on the details of how they are with each other. All I know is 'the relationship' is over. And soon the marriage will be too (well, so he says.. but that's another issue).

 

And I didn't mean to suggest that honesty was a sudden thing in general. I meant that it's suddenly the topic of the moment on the boards. Everywhere you look people are urging OW to 'be honest' and MM to 'be honest'.

[herenow]

Perhaps MM isn't the only one who should be making decisions about what is best for the children. I'm not sure anyone ever said that. But a MM, and anyone else for that matter, has a complete right to keep quiet about, not reveal, and not even think about their reasons for staying in a marriage. They also have a complete right to stay married to someone they don't love, if that's what they want to do (as long as the spouse wants to stay married also, for their own reasons).

 

So we agree that it's OK to "stay married to someone you don't love... as long as the spouse wants to stay married also, for their own reasons". This requires the MM to be honest with the W about the reasons so that she can make an informed decision on what she wants to do with her life. Otherwise it's the MM making the decision for his W and her being oblivious about the life she is living. Doesn't the W have the same rights as the MM?

[frannie]

So we agree that it's OK to "stay married to someone you don't love... as long as the spouse wants to stay married also, for their own reasons". This requires the MM to be honest with the W about the reasons so that she can make an informed decision on what she wants to do with her life. Otherwise it's the MM making the decision for his W and her being oblivious about the life she is living. Doesn't the W have the same rights as the MM?

 

Yes we agree that it's ok to stay married with someone you want to stay married to. As long as they want to be married to you.

 

It doesn't necessarily follow that anyone has to begin a conversation with their spouse about the reasons they're in a marriage. As I said before, I find it hard to imagine a situation in which one would sit down and say, you know, spouse, I've been thinking about the reasons I've not divorced you (cue incredulous look), and they look a bit thin, but if you're happy to stick with it I am too. I mean... what kind of situation are you referring to..? OK it might happen post D-day, but out of the blue..? It's a conversation that might well lead to MC and all sorts of things you don't want to make the effort with. I think most people don't even THINK why they're still married unless their marriage is truly dire, and/or they've found someone else. So the situation wouldn't even come into anyone's head. Or am I missing something?

 

Not giving reasons why you're still married to someone doesn't mean you're 'making a decision for your spouse'. It means it just hasn't come up. Each spouse has a perfect right to walk away from a marriage they don't like. If W isn't happy with what MM is doing... she can end it just as much as he can. But as I said, maybe she's just as happy to continue with a M for her own reasons. No one is making decisions for the other.

[herenow]

I think my first post on this thread said words to the effect you use in this post: he's not staying for the children. That is a phrase often rattled off, which doesn't in any way cover what the real reasons connected with the children are. As I said in my first post, they're to do with reputation, with how you're perceived as someone who 'deserted their children', with not wishing to be a part-time Dad, with indecision as to whether the children (and the W) will handle the divorce and how selfless the W will be about access and not poisoning the children's minds against the father. ALL of these things were bought up in the first pages of the thread. It truly isn't, and people on this thread haven't made it about 'staying for the children' - that's just a phrase. It's much more like 50% of it is staying because the children exist. And in my opinion that's a valid reason to continue a marriage. Marriage isn't all about romantic love and togetherness, let's not forget.

 

But you don't disagree with me, because I too think that if you're going to have a good relationship with someone I believe you really have to be honest with them. I'm not talking about good relationships though. I'm talking about a marriage where the people concerned have drifted apart, have no mutual respect, and no longer love each other. That's a whole different scenario. It's also something that is between MM and his W, and I really can't comment too much on the details of how they are with each other. All I know is 'the relationship' is over. And soon the marriage will be too (well, so he says.. but that's another issue).

 

And I didn't mean to suggest that honesty was a sudden thing in general. I meant that it's suddenly the topic of the moment on the boards. Everywhere you look people are urging OW to 'be honest' and MM to 'be honest'.

 

I respect your opinion, but I still think the MM is only thinking about himself and how he can get what he wants without regard for anyone else involved.

 

I'm glad we agree that a healthy relationship requires honesty.

[Guest]

Perhaps MM isn't the only one who should be making decisions about what is best for the children. I'm not sure anyone ever said that. But a MM, and anyone else for that matter, has a complete right to keep quiet about, not reveal, and not even think about their reasons for staying in a marriage. They also have a complete right to stay married to someone they don't love, if that's what they want to do (as long as the spouse wants to stay married also, for their own reasons).

 

I think my first post on this thread said words to the effect you use in this post: he's not staying for the children. That is a phrase often rattled off, which doesn't in any way cover what the real reasons connected with the children are. As I said in my first post, they're to do with reputation, with how you're perceived as someone who 'deserted their children', with not wishing to be a part-time Dad, with indecision as to whether the children (and the W) will handle the divorce and how selfless the W will be about access and not poisoning the children's minds against the father. ALL of these things were bought up in the first pages of the thread. It truly isn't, and people on this thread haven't made it about 'staying for the children' - that's just a phrase. It's much more like 50% of it is staying because the children exist. And in my opinion that's a valid reason to continue a marriage. Marriage isn't all about romantic love and togetherness, let's not forget.

 

But you don't disagree with me, because I too think that if you're going to have a good relationship with someone I believe you really have to be honest with them. I'm not talking about good relationships though. I'm talking about a marriage where the people concerned have drifted apart, have no mutual respect, and no longer love each other. That's a whole different scenario. It's also something that is between MM and his W, and I really can't comment too much on the details of how they are with each other. All I know is 'the relationship' is over. And soon the marriage will be too (well, so he says.. but that's another issue).

 

And I didn't mean to suggest that honesty was a sudden thing in general. I meant that it's suddenly the topic of the moment on the boards. Everywhere you look people are urging OW to 'be honest' and MM to 'be honest'.

 

I think you're saying two different things, though, frannie.

 

One is that a MM has the "right" to determine whether or not to conceal that he does not love his wife. In other words, his "right" (if we want to use a legal term) not to tell trumps her "right" to know.

 

But the other argument appears to be that the W already knows that he doesn't love her, and therefore she's a willing participant in the deception.

But that doesn't make sense. Either she knows, and therefore there's no reason for him not to have an honest conversation with her about it, or she doesn't, and therefore, she's in the dark and there's a problem there that remains unresolved.

 

As for the other point - no one is saying marriage is all about romantic love and togetherness, every minute of every day. In the long term, other things become very important, too, of course. But, children aside, I do not know a SINGLE PERSON who would say that they don't think honesty is important. Not one. I have been reading these boards for years, and have never seen ONE PERSON - be it BS, OP, or WS - who would EVER be interested in maintaining such a sham of a relationship.

 

That kind of contentment, when it is talked about, is ALWAYS discussed in the abstract - as in, I know that his W would rather not know, he says she is content with the status quo, etc. etc.

 

But you'll never read those statements made in the first person, by the party concerned - and that is because OP and BS are just people, who have this in common with one another: they crave connection, not distance. And, sadly, secrecy breeds distance.

[Chapter2]

I completely agree with this HN... So many of the "excuses" a MM gives to the W and the OW are self serving and he is only thinking of himself. Do I think he's completely selfish, maybe not, but I do think he's lookin out for good ol #1 first and foremost in many ways.

 

What I'm saying is that the MM isn't the only parent and should not be making choices by himself as to what is best for the kids. It's also not his place to decide for his wife (the mother of the kids) to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to. How is it that he has the right to run everyones lives with lies and deceit?

 

The fact is, he is not thinking about the kids at all, he is doing what is best for himself. He does not care about the effect his decisions have on the kids, their mother and yes the OW. The only person that benefits is the MM.

[Romeo Must Die]

herenow, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told lasan. Life isnt always fair. Unless you live in a bubble, that is just one of the many hardships of our lives as betrayed women. You should learn to deal with disappointment because not everything in marriage is going to work out exactly the way that it should. It's just a fact, herenow.

 

I'm not saying that you are wrong. If I had any control over Romeo's affair I would demand perfection, loyalty, and above all else the decency to give me an *out* so that I could seek companionship of my own as well, but that is not possible as the affair was never in my control.

 

What I can control are my own thoughts and actions. Thats all anyone can really handle. God gives us the power over our lives to make our own decisions. I would rather have the most honest answer of them all by going with Free Will. Win or lose that is the gamble we all take in life.

 

[frannie]

I respect your opinion, but I still think the MM is only thinking about himself and how he can get what he wants without regard for anyone else involved.

 

I'm glad we agree that a healthy relationship requires honesty.

 

Without regard for anyone else?? How can you possibly say that with any credibility? You don't know the man, or what his situation is, or what his plans are. If he really had no regard for anyone else he'd have walked out of that house YEARS ago.