To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[frannie]

Ok so how long can this go on for.... how long can you be ok with him going home and sharing his time with someone else.

 

Doesn't it make you all sad that he is not sharing his bed with you, doesn't it make you all sad that he is not able to be there for you emotionally because he is torn in two....

 

doesn't it make you sad that he is lying to her and possibly you to have the best of both worlds as much as you love him or he loves you.....

 

Doesn't it break you heart.... come on how strong can one be..... is it really supposed to be like this, no matter how educated one is no matter how well read no matter how successfull, or wealthy... doesn't it eat at you.... it has to it just has to, I know it eats away at me...

 

I'm not saying I've not been through bad phases... REALLY bad phases, during this affair. It's not a course I'd encourage anyone to take up, and never have. This time last year I was really quite ill and depressed. But I broke it off with him, took a break, and came back to see where we were. Where we had got to was that he is now prepared to leave. At the same time, the NC gave me time to reassess my life and where it's going and what I want from it. It reaffirmed my feelings for him, but at the same time allowed me to see that, without him in my life I won't die... things will go on, be better even. Certainly MUCH much better than being in an affair. So when I came back to him, I was stronger, happier, able to think clearly about the relationship for the first time in 2 years. So this is where I am: if he leaves fine, if he doesn't fine and I won't wait around any longer because I just don't see the point. Being 'out of an affair' for those months was good. I know there are good things ahead if I have to end this.

 

As for him not being there for me, being torn, etc. Yes, those were issues earlier on in the affair, but not now. We've been 'together' (though many periods have been 'apart' in NC or otherwise not seeing each other) for almost three years. In that time we have only become more certain of what we want, more determined to make it work... he's been emotionally detaching from his W, preparing for the actual separation. Both of these things (getting to know each other, and his detaching from his M) had to go on for us to get to this point. Neither of us are impetuous people. He certainly would not end his marriage on a whim, and while I've been VERY impatient at times for him to get a move on I know it's his decision, his divorce... a big move and it cannot be done overnight.

 

And in the meantime, we're both comprimising ourselves, and putting other people's hearts in danger. Yes. And no, its not something to be proud of. But... what else to do? I know what OTHER people might say, but they're not in my shoes, so... until they've been here, don't assume you would make any different choices. I thought I'd NEVER be in an affair, and have always villified people who did so: especially the MM. Egg on face time. Which is why I can understand completely people who come on this board to throw stones... probably a few years ago I might have done too, and I think of myself as a pretty tolerant person. I especially might have done if I'd been a BS. But... I don't see what good it would do... throwing stones at people you don't know and can't possibly know what they've been through and what they still face. Happy stone-gathering.

 

How long..? well, he's said he will be OUT by end of March latest, but I'm very wary of pushing him again because such things can backfire. I'm hoping to see some progress in bringing up the subject sometime soon, but obviously getting past the holiday season is the first priority. IF there's no progress in the next few months I will have to end it again and go NC, this time for good. But I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

[frannie]

P: Everyone is different...mine will go on until one of two things happen: he leaves her or I leave him...right now my needs are being met and I am happy...not everyone has a situation where he works 9-5 and goes home...I actually don't feel I am being treated as second or if I did, you're right, I WOULD have a problem with it...

 

I am not having the feelings you are describing now...if I were, I would be doing something about the situation...right now progress is being made and I'm willing to wait and see...

 

I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad and I hope that you are able to make a choice that will help you feel better about yourself and life in general...Best of luck...GEL

 

This is exactly my situation too, and it's why I'm happy. I wouldn't be putting up with a situation (at this stage) where I was unhappy... I've done that for too long in this affair.

 

At the moment I get to see him for 3-4 days straight during the week. He comes to stay at my place, and that's all day and all night: we both have occupations where working from home is an option, and that's what he does... from my home. We work during the day, I cook dinner or we go out, and then we have our evenings together. He calls the children for ten minutes in the evening.

 

It's not ideal, but it's pretty good, and of course there's the future to look forward to. Either with him or without him, I feel really happy... I'm out of the dark days of the affair, either way, this New Year.

[frannie]

So WTF is that supposed to mean? Because enigma may have been betrayed' date=' that his/her opinion is invalid? WTF?? Many never betrayed individuals feel the same. Many, otherwise affairs wouldn't be held in secret. Otherwise people wouldn't have a problem admitting that they met and dated BEFORE the divorce was even initiated.[/quote']

 

Why do you need to know this about other people..? What's this 'admitting' thing..? It's none of your business, unless it's YOUR marriage or relationship you're talking about. Or do you think we should all have to go around with big red 'A's on our clothing?

 

I suppose you have nothing in your past you wouldn't mind the entire world knowing and commenting on..?

[Freedom Now]

Well you might think that scenario is bullsh*t, but you'll have to take that up with Freedom Now, who posted the story of her father leaving and how her mother handled it, back on one of the earlier pages of the thread. I wasn't being 'insensitive and dumb' I was talking about what actually happens when these things come to light, and how it can seriously damage children to be dragged into things while the BS is still very raw (and Freedom Now was 19 at the time if I remember correctly).

 

Yes, frannie and NoIDidn't, it actually does happen that the wife poisons the children against the father.....and NoIDidn't, please don't tell me she was justified in doing that. That is an abomination. I have lived it and doing it is unspeakable. Truly hitting WAY below the belt. It is NOT justified.

 

My mother did just that, and sadly, some TWENTY years later, she is still bashing my father to me. Needless to say, I stand up for him and my mother and I have a relatively non existant relationship because of just that. I simply will not tolerate that behavior. And even though the WORLD has forgotten the separation and divorce of my father, SHE hasn't. And she is making damned sure that her kids (my brothers and sisters and I) don't either.

 

It is not stupid or dumb to believe it. Rather, it is incredibly insensitive and dumb to think it is okay to drag innocent children into a very adult problem and in the process, destroy a relationship between a father and his children. What kind of husband my dad was had no bearing on what kind of father he was. That is comparing apples and oranges. And regardless of what my father did or didn't do to my mother, my MOTHER will have to answer someday to how she turned children against their father for YEARS. For whatever my father did, he didn't deserve that. Did he deserve her wrath? Perhaps. But the hatred of his children? I think not. There is simpy NO EXCUSE for that. And for everyone's information, my father has not spoken a harsh word about my mother EVER.

 

Take it from someone who knows it and has lived it. My mother is living proof that men can get broiled for "leaving their family."

 

Bull****. He left HER and ONLY her.

 

My proof: every winter, he comes and stays with me and my kids for three months. Certainly not the actions of a man who left ME.

[Freedom Now]

And NoIDidn't, I read your earlier post. I am sorry that your father did what he did to your family.

 

But my father WANTED to be a part of his kids' lives. But, because of my mother's vile and continuously vicious words about him, he was given no choice. Those words infected my brothers and sister's minds. And no, I was not the oldest. I am a middle child. My older sisters believed her. My younger brothers believed her.

 

There is just no other way of looking at things in my situation. What she did is WRONG and any woman who does the same is WRONG.

 

No if, and's, or but's about it.

[Ladyjane14]

....it actually does happen that the wife poisons the children against the father.....

 

There's a BIG difference between giving children age appropriate truth and "poisoning" their minds. I'm sorry you had a bitter experienence with your mother Freedom, but it sounds to me like she was 'over the top' emotionally and not looking out for your best interests.

 

If I were in a position in which my husband had determined to desert his family in order to 'move on' with an OW, of course I'd tell my kids the absolute unvarnished truth about it.... not just his part, but my part too. To do otherwise would be like giving them a box full of puzzle pieces and asking them to assemble the truth about the destruction of their family dynamic without all the pieces included.

 

I've ALWAYS helped my kids to see through the confusion of human behaviors. ie. A bully in school bullies other kids because he, himself, is an insecure individual and seeks to validate himself by means of putting down others. Once a kid sees through to the weakness of the bully, he understands the motive and is free from internalization of the behavior.

 

Why would this situation be any different?

A married person who cheats on his/her spouse, cheats on the entire family. Their actions affect every family member. It seems unfair to me, that we who are responsible for the emotional and physical development of our children, would deny them the basics in honesty.

 

There's utterly no way that I would allow another person to misrepresent themselves to my children all the while standing back knowing that a fraud was being perpetrated upon them.

 

The OW who attempts to befriend a MM's children, after having been secretly complicit in the destruction of their family... is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I would consider it to be part of my JOB to put all the information on the table so that my kids could protect themselves emotionally.

 

The MM who destoys his child's homelife with deceit and self-serving behavior is also perpetrating a fraud. He's a dishonest and selfish individual, and it's best if his kids can see through to this human frailty. Eventually, he WILL be unmasked, even if the affair is never uncovered. It's like the story of the fox and the scorpion... it's in his nature. He's gonna slip up.

 

Most kids will continue to love their parents regardless. It's perfectly okay to love imperfect people. If it wasn't... who among us would be worthy of love?

 

We've all discovered the strengths and weaknesses of our parents by the time we're grown. We either respect and emulate what we see, or we chaulk it up to a flaw in character that we'd rather avoid ourselves. Either way.... we learn something from it.

 

I do believe that we have a responsibility to teach our children about basic human behavior and to help them sort out the confusion around them. We owe them that. When we protect them from the truth, we're doing them a disservice. We're not giving them the opportunity to develop their OWN ethics and values. To my mind... THAT's the poison.

 

Is it easier for MM/OW to hide their own flaws? Sure thing. It makes it all so much simpler for them. Afterall, they aren't the ones scratching their heads and wondering WTF happened. But ain't it a damn shame to have an innocent kid living in a state of confusion with nothing to hold onto but the limp-ass excuse of 'Mommy and Daddy can't live together anymore, but we still both love YOU'

 

That's like telling them their hamster "ran away" instead of using the opportunity to talk about death and grief.

[Freedom Now]

My father did not leave my mother and move on with another woman. He was incredibly unhappy and, instead of staying and being miserable, left. And he didn't desert our family. He left HER. Big difference.

 

My mother couldn't handle it. And every chance she got, she splayed out his flaws to us kids. And that wasn't necessary whether he cheated or not. We do NOT need to know, as children and young adults, how "horrible" our parent has behaved. It is abuse.

 

Over the top? You betcha. Uncommon? I doubt it.

 

There are some truths that do not need to be told to children, however age appropriate they may seem. Children LOVE their parents, warts and all.

 

I would be devastated if my ex-husband went after me emotionally by corrupting my kids' love for me. There is no reason for children to be privy to the ugly, dirty details of a divorce. That is between the parents. And, BTW, my kids know the details of my divorce from their dad. And ugliness did NOT run rampant. I learned well from my parents' divorce. I would NEVER do that to my kids, and their father was no saint, let me tell you. But neither was I. And neither one of us chose to "aire out" the dirty laundry of our marriage to our kids. They know the basic facts and that is enough. They were told the truth without tainting their love for the other parent. And, BTW, infidelity was the reason for the divorce.

 

A wonderful father may be a horrible husband. And a horrible wife is not necessarily a horrible mom. I was not a good wife, but I am a fabulous mom. And because we, their parents, worked TOGETHER instead of against each other, my kids are healthy and happy. They love us both. As they should.

 

There is a difference between being brutally honest and just being brutal.

 

Sorry. VERY sore subject for me.

[lovernotafighter]

The situations being discussed about the kids is exactly what my EX best friend was doing. She was using the kids and threatening the husband with the kids. It was sickening and the kids really got hurt. I continually told her not to and so my support sucked. I did not tell hr what she needed to hear but my husband did.

 

I will never use my kids in a situation like that. I will always want my kids to still respect their dad. He's been an amazing father. I will protect my kids at all costs but not to the cost of staying in a dead marriage. That's not protecting them. Kids need to see healthy loving relationships so they know what is in their future. So they don't accept anything less in their lives.

 

Parents can separate without being drug through the mud.

 

all this time I thought you were staying in a dead marriage...color me confused why did your husband cheat again? are you still with that immoral loser?

 

just take a walk on the brown side and you'll see the light hon'

[Ladyjane14]

There are some truths that do not need to be told to children, however age appropriate they may seem.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see honesty as a corruption of love, but rather I see dishonesty as a corruption of truth.

 

I feel it's my DUTY to be truthful with my kids and teach them everthing I know about this world. Information need not be 'detailed', "ugly", or "dirty". It only needs to be factual.

 

The truth is not necessarily an attack. It is what it is. Tinkering with it is the greater wrong, if you ask me.

 

Now, I admit... feeling the way I do about it, I'm personally unlikely to engage in behaviors which I would later find myself hesitant to admit to in front of my children. But on the occasions that I do err, even in small ways... I'm bound by conscience to deal with it matter-of-factly.

 

Believe me, it's not like the kids are unaware of my imperfections of of their father's either.

We couldn't hide our flaws even if we endeavored to try. Kids are more observant than most folks give them credit for. But... they understand these flaws better by virtue of having had the freedom to discuss them with us. And amazingly enough... they love us anyway, even though we're only mere mortals.

[Freedom Now]

How factual must one be? Tell me that my dad had an affair? Or tell me that he screwed his secretary? Both stating the same thing, but which is the healthier way to explain it to a kid? What IF the truth IS ugly and dirty? Do I need to know the details of the affair? What then? That is where the line gets blurry....

 

I am a product of that brutal truthfulness on my mother's part. And the truth wasn't pretty. But I chose not to judge my father on his bad behavior and see him as a human being. That didn't satisfy my mother. She wanted me to see him as she saw him. Very unhealthy, even if it was her truth.

 

She will have to answer for that for she isn't perfect either. And all she accomplished was to alienate her children from her and draw those same children towards their dad.

 

Her behavior was much worse than his, IMHO. And I am a product of her truthfulness in all its glory. She would explain her behavior just as you explain it. She would see it as simply being honest with us. But there is a difference. You are being kind. She was not. She was after revenge. And that lies the problem: what was her motive? Surely not for the good of us kids....

 

That is the million dollar question if we get down the crux of it....

 

What is the motive for telling all to the kids? I would think that revenge and wrath would have much to do with alot of it. Remember, I walked twenty years in these shoes. I am highly qualified to assess this situation.

 

Nope, I will stick with the manner in which I handled MY divorce. Truthfully but with sensitivity towards my children's hearts. They do not need all of the details even if that would be telling them the entire truth. Children do not belong in adult problems.

 

Yes, we will agree to disagree.

 

Peace.

[bonehead]

If I were in a position in which my husband had determined to desert his family in order to 'move on' with an OW, of course I'd tell my kids the absolute unvarnished truth about it

 

And if he wanted a divorce and didnt have an OW would you tell your kids he was deserting his family?

[frannie]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't see honesty as a corruption of love, but rather I see dishonesty as a corruption of truth.

 

I feel it's my DUTY to be truthful with my kids and teach them everthing I know about this world. Information need not be 'detailed', "ugly", or "dirty". It only needs to be factual.

 

The truth is not necessarily an attack. It is what it is. Tinkering with it is the greater wrong, if you ask me.

 

Now, I admit... feeling the way I do about it, I'm personally unlikely to engage in behaviors which I would later find myself hesitant to admit to in front of my children. But on the occasions that I do err, even in small ways... I'm bound by conscience to deal with it matter-of-factly.

 

Believe me, it's not like the kids are unaware of my imperfections of of their father's either.

We couldn't hide our flaws even if we endeavored to try. Kids are more observant than most folks give them credit for. But... they understand these flaws better by virtue of having had the freedom to discuss them with us. And amazingly enough... they love us anyway, even though we're only mere mortals.

 

If both parents were going to be fine and adult about it, and explain the situation in an age-specific way to the children, and NOT bad-mouth the other parent, then of course... great situation.

 

But that's just not the case in every marriage! If it were all going to be that easy, communication was great, respect for the other intact, and so on one would have to ask WHY the divorce..?

 

As I said before, it's up to the people involved in the marriage to make the decisions on this, no one else. And yes, that does mean that in some cases one (or both) individuals will choose not to reveal things that they think might be used against them by a potentially vindictive ex-partner. Why not? Is that self-preservation and selfishness, well yes, in part. But let me ask you, is 'the truth' so important that it's worth the risk of a lifetime of heartbreak and broken relationships between parents and children? Not in my book. Your opinion will no doubt vary.

 

There are many 'truths' involved in every situation: the BS's 'truth' might be that her ex is a monster, but does she have the right to inflict that 'truth' on children who are still in a very vulnerable position simply in order to get back at her ex..? Again, I don't think so. Not every adult behaves like an adult all the time, and no one sees the objective truth. It's simply not possible to apply a blanket ruling about 'revealing all truth' as if it were always the best thing to do. It's not. Not in my opinion.

[Ladyjane14]

But let me ask you, is 'the truth' so important that it's worth the risk of a lifetime of heartbreak and broken relationships between parents and children? Not in my book. Your opinion will no doubt vary.

 

And no surprise... my opinion does "vary". That's because situationally, I'm willing to prioritize my children's needs over my own and even ahead of my husband's. I'll take that risk.

 

WE are the adults, they are not. We can take care of ourselves, but they need our guidance most particularly when times are tough and the issues surrounding them are confusing.

 

There are many 'truths' involved in every situation: the BS's 'truth' might be that her ex is a monster, but does she have the right to inflict that 'truth' on children who are still in a very vulnerable position simply in order to get back at her ex..?

 

Your assumption seems to be that the motivating factor in telling the truth is Revenge. That's not always the case. Believe it or not, there ARE people who will give their kids the facts without tainting them with their own perception. There are people who consistantly work to develop their children's cognitive abilities, and who will let their children use those tools to develop their own ideas.

 

Not every adult behaves like an adult all the time, and no one sees the objective truth. It's simply not possible to apply a blanket ruling about 'revealing all truth' as if it were always the best thing to do. It's not. Not in my opinion.

 

Facts are just that.... facts. While I agree that truth is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, FACTS are not. They are what they are. Why hide the "warts"? It's not like they aren't there and it's not like the kids can't see them anyway.

[Ladyjane14]

And if he wanted a divorce and didnt have an OW would you tell your kids he was deserting his family?

 

I have no problem using a word like "deserting" if it's true. And I'm certainly not going to shrink from using it here in this forum, because to be honest... that's the way I see it.

 

But.... it's unlikely I'd use that word with the kids unless there were also an element of real abandonment. The word itself, "desertion" is capable of transferring perceptions unless it's used in it's correct context.

[frannie]

And no surprise... my opinion does "vary". That's because situationally, I'm willing to prioritize my children's needs over my own and even ahead of my husband's. I'll take that risk.

 

WE are the adults, they are not. We can take care of ourselves, but they need our guidance most particularly when times are tough and the issues surrounding them are confusing.

 

Your assumption seems to be that the motivating factor in telling the truth is Revenge. That's not always the case. Believe it or not, there ARE people who will give their kids the facts without tainting them with their own perception. There are people who consistantly work to develop their children's cognitive abilities, and who will let their children use those tools to develop their own ideas.

 

Facts are just that.... facts. While I agree that truth is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, FACTS are not. They are what they are. Why hide the "warts"? It's not like they aren't there and it's not like the kids can't see them anyway.

 

Ironically, "prioritising the children's needs ahead of your partner's" is exactly where this debate got started... you talk about prioritising ahead of your H's interests, and I'm talking about prioritising for them ahead of his W's interests. Most of what is in this post of yours is pretty much what I was arguing about five pages back: adults need to make the decisions, and sometimes that involves NOT revealing information as much as revealing it.

 

No, I don't believe that the only motivation in telling the truth is revenge. I said that not all cases are the same. Please don't take things out of context and make out I'm talking in absolutes when I'm doing exactly the opposite.

 

Facts may be facts, but we're not talking of 'facts', we're (or rather I mean to be) talking about opinion and bad-mouthing, and twisting children's views of their parents. Not only that, of course; there are plenty of other points I made in earlier posts which weren't strictly about telling 'truth', but reasons for staying in a M which revolve around children. I stand by what I've written; how others choose to interpret it to make their own points is not my problem.

[Freedom Now]

Frannie, I agree with you.

 

I have lived in that "truth."

 

Thanks, but no thanks, mom.

 

I prefer to love my dad without all of his flaws thrown in my face.

 

And I will never waver on this. Ever.

[bonehead]

I have no problem using a word like "deserting" if it's true. And I'm certainly not going to shrink from using it here in this forum, because to be honest... that's the way I see it.

 

But.... it's unlikely I'd use that word with the kids unless there were also an element of real abandonment. The word itself, "desertion" is capable of transferring perceptions unless it's used in it's correct context.

 

 

So if your husband wanted a divorce would you tell your kids he is deserting them?

[frannie]

I have no problem using a word like "deserting" if it's true. And I'm certainly not going to shrink from using it here in this forum, because to be honest... that's the way I see it.

 

But.... it's unlikely I'd use that word with the kids unless there were also an element of real abandonment. The word itself, "desertion" is capable of transferring perceptions unless it's used in it's correct context.

 

You might see it as 'desertion' and 'abandonment' but that's not what is happening. Legally, those are completely different things to getting a separation, divorce, and making arrangements for children to spend time with each parent (if appropriate).

 

Your 'truth' is that any divorce is 'abandonment'..? luckily the courts don't see it that way. That's exactly what people are arguing here: someone who twists the facts to suit their opinion of a situation and presents that as 'the truth' to children to serve their own ends.

[Freedom Now]

And this is why some MM don't leave.

 

God forbid they would be labeled as deserters or abandoners.

 

I wouldn't leave either.

[Freedom Now]

So if your husband wanted a divorce would you tell your kids he is deserting them?

 

That's what my mom did.

 

It has been a ball these last twenty years, let me tell you.

 

[frannie]

 

I prefer to love my dad without all of his flaws thrown in my face.

 

Sorry you've been through all that... it's a terrible story.

[bonehead]

Even SOCIETY sees a man leaving a marriage as a deserter.

 

You people can debate this all you want.

 

STEP INTO MY SHOES!!!!

[Ladyjane14]

So if your husband wanted a divorce would you tell your kids he is deserting them?

 

A spurious question for the sake of contentiousness. Asked and answered.

 

If she senses the affair, it is eating away at her. And, yes, she has a right to have her questions answered. Not the incredibly painful ones that will do her no good. No need to discuss your sex life and things of that nature.

 

But the meat of the affair....yes. She, IF SHE DESIRES THE TRUTH, is entitled to it. She should be allowed to navigate in her world armed with knowledge. It just isn't fair to leave her in dark if she is asking for you to shine a light....

 

I find it interesting that you posted this a few days ago in reference to betrayed wives, but seem to find children less worthy of this kind of consideration. I honestly don't get that.

 

Kids aren't stupid, and sometimes the situation around them doesn't add up. What do you do when it's your kid who's groping in the dark and just as much gaslighted as the betrayed spouse. What self-respecting parent could watch their kid struggling with 'the math', and not be willing to help them?

[Freedom Now]

Even SOCIETY sees a man leaving a marriage as a deserter.

 

You people can debate this all you want.

 

STEP INTO MY SHOES!!!!

 

bonehead:

 

I don't see you as a deserter any more than me dad was.

 

And I never will.

 

Ever.

[bonehead]

I have no problem using a word like "deserting" if it's true. And I'm certainly not going to shrink from using it here in this forum, because to be honest... that's the way I see it.

 

But.... it's unlikely I'd use that word with the kids unless there were also an element of real abandonment. The word itself, "desertion" is capable of transferring perceptions unless it's used in it's correct context.

 

then what is the correct context?