To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[bonehead]

bonehead:

 

I don't see you as a deserter any more than me dad was.

 

And I never will.

 

Ever.

 

Thank you Freedom

[Freedom Now]

A spurious question for the sake of contentiousness. Asked and answered.

 

 

 

I find it interesting that you posted this a few days ago in reference to betrayed wives, but seem to find children less worthy of this kind of consideration. I honestly don't get that.

 

Kids aren't stupid, and sometimes the situation around them doesn't add up. What do you do when it's your kid who's groping in the dark and just as much gaslighted as the betrayed spouse. What self-respecting parent could watch their kid struggling with 'the math', and not be willing to help them?

 

The difference is simply this:

 

IF the wife ASKS, she has a right to know.

 

I DIDN'T ASK.

 

So you are giving kudos to my mom? Thanks.

[frannie]

Kids aren't stupid, and sometimes the situation around them doesn't add up. What do you do when it's your kid who's groping in the dark and just as much gaslighted as the betrayed spouse. What self-respecting parent could watch their kid struggling with 'the math', and not be willing to help them?

 

Help them understand what? People get divorced because they no longer want to be married. Children see it all the time. Often it's a great relief to them to see parents who can't get on together part.

 

There might be some situations like you describe, but again... you can't just go saying 'truth is always best' 'full disclosure' blah blah in every situation. You have TWO other people on this thread who have faced situations like this: from the perspective of the child, and from a MM who divorced and now has custody of his children but faced difficulties because of society's perception of divorcing Dads... we're talking about real situations here in which 'truth' and perception in some ways was a problem. I'm not sure what you're not seeing. The problems are there. And there are no easy answers that suit everyone's moral position... people are just trying to do their best. We're not demons.

[Ladyjane14]

Ahhh.... the dulcet siren's song of the dedicated OW. 'Don't judge me or generalize MY specific situation. Don't put word's in MY mouth.'

 

Oh Pot. Is that the kettle calling?

 

Please don't take things out of context and make out I'm talking in absolutes when I'm doing exactly the opposite....

 

Your 'truth' is that any divorce is 'abandonment'..? luckily the courts don't see it that way. That's exactly what people are arguing here: someone who twists the facts to suit their opinion of a situation and presents that as 'the truth' to children to serve their own ends.

[Freedom Now]

So, Ladyjane, where did my mom fail? She told me the whole truth as you say I deserved.

 

How was that over the top, in your opinion?

[frannie]

Ahhh.... the dulcet siren's song of the dedicated OW. 'Don't judge me or generalize MY specific situation. Don't put word's in MY mouth.'

 

Oh Pot. Is that the kettle calling?

 

Whose mouth have I been putting words into..? I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I prefer to stick to the debate rather than get personal.

 

Neither am I a 'dedicated OW', but thanks for the um categorisation.

[puddleofmud]

I think the subject of this thread did bring some valuable food for thought...

Why, if the marriage is over and the couple agree to stay for the sake of the children would not the subject of "seeing others" come up? It would seem natural if both parties have acknowleged there is NO love, no intimacy, etc. that they would speak about this?

Even if both are not having an affair--the situation is ripe to the fact that this could happen with either...it would seem healthy to discuss the possiblity & how it would be handled. How could one in a loveless marriage NOT be tempted to have sex w/ another person, especially if this is to go on for years, or a decade???

Secondly, fathers do not have to "loose their children"--joint custody is now more prevalent than ever and affairs rarely factor unless their has been lack of financial support for the children or violence. As well, joint counseling for the entire family may also be court ordered. Believe me, in my experience as a volunteer Guardian ad Litem for the court, judges will order family counseling in a millisecond--all an attorney need do is pose it to the court.

If one does not attend and bring the children then one is held in contempt. Nice big fat fine or a few days in jail and the bench warrant won't cost the individual a dime as the court is the authority. All the court ordered counselor need do is make a call...and they do because they are also held by law to notify.

All one do is ask for this to be included in the separation order and a separation maintenence order would be advisable from the get-go! A separation order may also say that both parties are free to "date" / have relationships w/ others, etc.

Seperations orders are good because it gives one some time to figure things out/ see what works (expecially w/ joint counseling w/ the children) and what does not prior to the final divorce decree.

The court is not sympathetic in the least when a spouse uses children as "pawns" and this is easily discovered in court ordered counseling so if a spouse chooses to do this they are shooting themselves in the foot as the counselor may also testify if needed as will the Guardian as Litem....I have seen family court judges make persons literally stand before them and give them "what for" about this kind of thing--and joint custody may not be issued, but rather limited visitation.

It just takes some grit, planning and an experienced attorney.

[Ladyjane14]

Help them understand what? People get divorced because they no longer want to be married. Children see it all the time. Often it's a great relief to them to see parents who can't get on together part.

 

 

Frannie... I seem to remember a post in which you stated that you don't have any children of your own. So, exactly how much worth should we attribute to your recommendations on child-rearing?

 

There might be some situations like you describe, but again... you can't just go saying 'truth is always best' 'full disclosure' blah blah in every situation. You have TWO other people on this thread who have faced situations like this: from the perspective of the child, and from a MM who divorced and now has custody of his children but faced difficulties because of society's perception of divorcing Dads... we're talking about real situations here in which 'truth' and perception in some ways was a problem. I'm not sure what you're not seeing. The problems are there. And there are no easy answers that suit everyone's moral position... people are just trying to do their best. We're not demons.

 

When we do things we're not proud of, is it your suggestion that we sweep them up under the carpet then? Ignore them? Hope they go away?

 

Sorry... NOTHING you say will make me agree that deliberate dishonesty is better than the factual truth. Personally, I'm not living with skeletons in MY closet. I'm less afraid of being embarrassed by the truth than of being caught in a lie. I lose less credibility in the eyes of those whose opinions REALLY count.

[norajane]

then what is the correct context?

 

He steps out for a pack of smokes and a quart of milk and never returns...physical desertion and abandonment.

 

Or, in the case of the business traveler or clever cheater, he spends the week with his OW and the weekends at home without ever trying to work on what's wrong with the marriage or even letting on that he's unhappy...emotional abandonment of the wife, though perhaps not the kids.

[Freedom Now]

Ladyjane, I have five children of my own and my recommendations are worth much in child rearing.

 

My children love both me and their father. That is healthy.

 

What my mother did, and those who would do similiar as her, is NOT.

 

And my kids know the truth about our divorce. But they were NEVER told that one of us abandoned or deserted the other. That is a subjective statement.

 

You may think it but the kids may not.

[frannie]

Frannie... I seem to remember a post in which you stated that you don't have any children of your own. So, exactly how much worth should we attribute to your recommendations on child-rearing?

 

When we do things we're not proud of, is it your suggestion that we sweep them up under the carpet then? Ignore them? Hope they go away?

 

Sorry... NOTHING you say will make me agree that deliberate dishonesty is better than the factual truth. Personally, I'm not living with skeletons in MY closet. I'm less afraid of being embarrassed by the truth than of being caught in a lie. I lose less credibility in the eyes of those whose opinions REALLY count.

 

Well thanks for your side-swipe at my childlessness. Much appreciated. I've never given anyone tips on child-rearing, because I don't teach my grandmother to suck eggs.

 

I also don't make suggestions to anyone on what they do in their private life, who they tell or don't tell about it afterwards, or anything else for that matter unless they ask for suggestions... even then I'm pretty circumspect about it. People can make their own decisions, and almost always do, I find.

 

And I'm quite happy for you to disagree with me. I'm not here to get agreement, just to engage in 'supporting and discussing' like it says at the top of the page. What about you?

[Ladyjane14]

So, Ladyjane, where did my mom fail? She told me the whole truth as you say I deserved.

 

How was that over the top, in your opinion?

 

Did she demand of you that you adopt her perspective instead of developing your own? I think it's likely she probably did.

 

I've just recently witnessed a friend with a teenager who was really struggling with finding her way post-divorce due to her father's infidelity. After having given her child "the facts" and making a concerted effort to encourage the kid to develop her own conclusions... we're now talking about a kid who's improved dramatically. She's no longer losing ground in school or sports. And even better, she's no longer crying daily.

 

The final pieces of the puzzle have been supplied to her. To top it off, she doesn't hate her father. Rather, she sees him as a man who's struggling, and is actually a bit more sympathetic to him in some ways. She's sees the human frailty, and also the ability to rise above it.

 

Our kids learn about adversity by watching how we handle it. We can either give them a lesson worth learning... or we can hide our dirty laundry and keep our pride intact.

[Freedom Now]

This is not about keeping our pride intact. This is about the MANNER in which a child is told and the CONTENT that the child is told.

 

Telling a child that her father deserted her is not in good form. Did your friend tell her daughter that?

 

That is the difference. I was TOLD that.

 

Telling a child that her father deserted or abandoned her is not a 'fact', it is an opinion.

 

And, in the spirit of your argument, only the facts should be told. Certainly the opinions of the parent should be kept to themselves so the children can draw their own conclusions, right?

[Freedom Now]

And telling any child that his/her parent deserted him/her is SO WRONG on so many levels, it is staggering.

 

I would like to read one book, hear from one therapist or psychologist, or even one human being say it is healthy to tell a child its parent abandoned them.

 

Just one.

[Ladyjane14]

And my kids know the truth about our divorce. But they were NEVER told that one of us abandoned or deserted the other. That is a subjective statement.

 

Of course it is. Who said it wasn't? There are lots of folks who get divorced and manage to maintain extremely good parenting relationships with their kids.

 

But, can you deny that the family is emotionally, if not physically abandoned, when Dad's more interested in his latest bootie call than in Johnny failing math or learning to deal with the bully in his schoolyard? Regardless of Dad's marital status, hasn't a kid like that been "deserted"?

 

There are altogether too many people in this world who pay more attention to their own social life than to the REAL responsibility of raising their kids to be well-adjusted adults.

 

On an aside... I'm not sure I get your point altogether.

You've said that YOUR children have been given the truth. Do you feel like that's a bad thing?

[Ladyjane14]

This is not about keeping our pride intact. This is about the MANNER in which a child is told and the CONTENT that the child is told.

 

Telling a child that her father deserted her is not in good form. Did your friend tell her daughter that?

 

That is the difference. I was TOLD that.

 

Telling a child that her father deserted or abandoned her is not a 'fact', it is an opinion.

 

And, in the spirit of your argument, only the facts should be told. Certainly the opinions of the parent should be kept to themselves so the children can draw their own conclusions, right?

 

So... let's say for example that Dad ran off with his secretary. He hasn't been seen or heard from in over a year. Are you REALLY going to tell your kid that Daddy's on an extended vacation and there aren't any phones where he's at?

 

C'mon. Then YOU are the one losing credibility with the kid. He already knows his "hamster" didn't run away. Why patronize him?

[herenow]

This board is like the game of telephone. Threads start as one thing and turn into a totally different subject. Not that it's a bad thing. It's good when people can get their ideas out about anything. I still have to comment on how this has been a civil and very informative thread. I always gain from learning about other people's experiences.

 

Just to get back to what I was saying. I'm not saying that kids should be dragged into their parents problems. I'm saying that both parents should be making the decisions of what is best for their kids together. BH, I'm sorry that the courts don't see it that way. I agree that parents should be treated equal. From what I hear, it's getting better.

 

Everyone seems to think that a W is always going to fight a H leaving. In the case of my friend, her and her kids (who are both teens) would like to see them divorce so that everyone can move on and be happy. The H is the one who has decide that it's best to stay together for the kids and won't sign the papers. He also continues the affair. He has even introduced the OW to his kids.

 

If it were me, I would not want to stay in a loveless marriage, and loving my kids, I would not poison them against their father. His affair had nothing to do with them, and if we were unable to re-build our marriage, we would still be their parents together.

 

What I'm saying is that if the love is gone from the marriage, and the H has made a choice to have an affair and stay married for the kids. His wife should be made part of that decision. She may agree that they should stay together for the kids, or they may come up with a better solution. The fact is, the affair is not part of the equation, it's the love lost between the H and W that should be discussed.

 

People on this board have said many times that affairs are not about the OW or OM, but about problems in the marriage. Why would it be hard to believe that the W might be as unhappy as the H? No, I'm not saying that they should necessarily "work" on the marriage. I'm saying that they should define the relationship and be truthful to each other about why they are there. Having done that, they can decide how to raise their kids together.

[Freedom Now]

No, it is not wrong that my kids got the truth. But it would have been wrong to tell them that they were abandoned because we chose not to live as a family together.

 

But my children didn't need to know my opinions of my ex-husband and they didn't need to know his opinions of me.

 

And, yes, I can deny that the family is emotionally or physically abandoned when Dad leaves.

 

My dad may have not lived with me, but he was there to see me at every track meet, cheerleading event, college graduation, birth, loss, everything.

 

My dad came to my nursing graduation when I graduated valedictorian of my class a few years ago. Both of my parents were invited. My mother said she would come if my dad came alone. (My dad was dating a woman who had NOTHING to do with their divorce 20 years ago, and whom I liked very much, BTW). I told her that I was not going to ostrasize that innocent woman simply because she was simply dating my dad.

 

Guess who came to my graduation?

 

Yep. My dad. And mom stayed home and blamed ME for it.

 

Which one of my parents abandoned me then?

[bonehead]

Or, in the case of the business traveler or clever cheater, he spends the week with his OW and the weekends at home without ever trying to work on what's wrong with the marriage or even letting on that he's unhappy...emotional abandonment of the wife, though perhaps not the kids.

 

So you can tell a child that their father abandoned them if he emotionally abandons his wife?

[Freedom Now]

So... let's say for example that Dad ran off with his secretary. He hasn't been seen or heard from in over a year. Are you REALLY going to tell your kid that Daddy's on an extended vacation and there aren't any phones where he's at?

 

C'mon. Then YOU are the one losing credibility with the kid. He already knows his "hamster" didn't run away. Why patronize him?

 

No, I wouldn't tell the kids anything.

 

His actions speak for themselves. The kids don't need my help in seeing what has happened. They aren't dumb.

 

Why would I verbalize what they are already thinking and rub salt into their little wounds? The don't need to hear the words. They already know the truth. And, yes, in that case, it IS abandonment.

 

It was not the case, however, in my life.

[Freedom Now]

So you can tell a child that their father abandoned them if he emotionally abandons his wife?

 

Bonehead,

 

Why is everyone ignoring your questions? I would like to read the answer to your questions myself.

[herenow]

I always have respect for someone who can tell the truth. If I found that my parents had lied to me abut something so important as this, I would lose respect for both of them

 

The truth is important in the case of divorce so that the kids don't blame themselves. If I was to have an affair (when h*ll freezes over), I would much rather my kids know the truth, then think it's their fault.

 

I am responsible for my own actions and take responsibly for the fall out of anything I choose to do. I wouldn't do anything in the first place that would hurt my kids. Maybe if the MM would think about these issues before he had the affair, he wouldn't have to worry so much about how his W and kids will react.

[norajane]

So you can tell a child that their father abandoned them if he emotionally abandons his wife?

 

I said: "though perhaps not the kids".

 

However, if he's spending his time elsewhere and isn't around for the kids' soccer games and to help them with homework and be there to listen to their problems and successes and to give them a goodnight kiss, yes he has abandoned them emotionally. A 10 minute phone call per night from his OW's place is hardly being there for his kids when he is choosing to be elsewhere solely for the purpose of carrying on his affair.

 

I still don't think I'd use that word in telling the kids what's going on, but, kids don't need to hear the word abondonment to know how it feels. And one day, they'll match the word to the behavior on their own.

[Freedom Now]

Yes, norajane, the word abandonment does NOT need to be said.

 

The kids will figure things out on their own, without their mother's help.

[herenow]

Bonehead,

 

Why is everyone ignoring your questions? I would like to read the answer to your questions myself.

 

I'll answer. No, BN, if the father has done no such thing, then it's wrong for the mother to lie about it.

 

Where is the father that the mother is alone with the kids to tell them such awful lies about him?