To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[bonehead]

But he can have a discussion with his wife about problems in their marriage even before the affair begins. That really has nothing to do with the kids at all.

 

This is true. And would be the prefered option. But s*ht does happen. We cant color the world perfect. Wish we could

[herenow]

But he can have a discussion with his wife about problems in their marriage even before the affair begins. That really has nothing to do with the kids at all.

 

I take this back. It's a whole other idea for another thread and I don't have time today to discuss it.

 

Talk to you all next year! Hope you have a great one!

 

Be safe so that BH can get a rest.

[herenow]

This is true. And would be the prefered option. But s*ht does happen. We cant color the world perfect. Wish we could

 

So true, none of us are perfect. That is a good lesson to teach our kids as well.

 

Be well BH.

[pureinheart]

Concerning MM and MW.....I have seen some horrible M's in my day, where the H or W is bitter, controlling and angry all of the time....who for God's sake would want to live around that? One friend literally got up on his roof one day to escape the fighting....she would never think to look for him up there...lol....

 

One of my friends was murdered by his wife....we mourn him to this day....

 

I see this happening with ex-MM, that is an extremely explosive situation, and the more I learned, I got out. I just know something really bad will happen in that household because not only are all of them enemies with each other....they have multitudes of enemies because of how they are.

 

Right here in this forum there are several situations just about ripe for the 6 o'clock news.

 

A house divided against itself will not stand.

[puddleofmud]

Having been guardian ad litem in open adoption cases (as most are these days because that is unavoidable) there are literally FOUR parents--sometime even more with the parents having other spouses than the child's original parents, not to mention multiple grand-parents, aunts, uncles, muti-race and cultural issues. Some adoptive petitioners are gay, some are single, etc. Some make little money and some are quite well off.

The court will allow the adoption only if all parties agree to a "plan" where the issues are resolved prior to the adoption. It does not take into account arguments via emotions or who is most moral. It takes into account soley that which is in the best interest of the child having a supportive and consistent environment. Any one could possibly loose their direct relationship w. their child and be awarded nothing BUT visitation if they are about their own adult needs vs. the child. If an original parent home is not in the best interest of the child then it is entirely possible that DESPITE that the children may be court ordered OUT of the home for temporary investigation.

An affair wouldn't cause that but two parents who are neglecting their children's needs due to their emotional distress or games w/ each other could cause this so it is best in ALL scenarios to be most cautious!

A teacher or neighbor could bring this to light if the children seem distressed....

[Ladyjane14]

I've just recently witnessed a friend with a teenager who was really struggling with finding her way post-divorce due to her father's infidelity. After having given her child "the facts" and making a concerted effort to encourage the kid to develop her own conclusions... we're now talking about a kid who's improved dramatically. She's no longer losing ground in school or sports. And even better, she's no longer crying daily.

 

The final pieces of the puzzle have been supplied to her. To top it off, she doesn't hate her father. Rather, she sees him as a man who's struggling, and is actually a bit more sympathetic to him in some ways. She's sees the human frailty, and also the ability to rise above it.

 

Sorry, this thread was weighing on my mind and I realized that I forgot to add one important detail to this story... and then I'm out.

 

Kids often try to "fix" things for their parents. And when they don't understand the true meaning of "a grown up problem", they tend to believe that if they're just good enough, or smart enough, or articulate enough... somehow they can lead Mom and Dad back together.

 

This last piece of the puzzle made it obvious to this particular teenager, that there REALLY are some problems a kid can't be influential in solving. When she understood that the dynamics of the problem were truly out of her sphere of influence, she could at last let it go and stop trying to take responsibility in healing her family.

 

You can tell a kid all you want that it's NOT about them, but they don't have the tools yet to understand what that means. It's through emotional growth and maturity that we move past the more or less complete egocentricity of infancy. Babies don't even know their parents aren't a literal extension of themselves. It take a little growth before they perceive ANY kind of individuality in others.

 

We free our kids from the responsibility of attempting to managing our adult problems when we give them enough information so they understand once and for all, that some things are indeed out of their hands. After that, they can just be regular kids again.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Any one could possibly loose their direct relationship w. their child and be awarded nothing BUT visitation if they are about their own adult needs vs. the child. If an original parent home is not in the best interest of the child then it is entirely possible that DESPITE that the children may be court ordered OUT of the home for temporary investigation.

An affair wouldn't cause that but two parents who are neglecting their children's needs due to their emotional distress or games w/ each other could cause this so it is best in ALL scenarios to be most cautious!

 

Exactly how infidelity came into play in the courts when my sister lost her petition to occupy the marital home and be granted guardianship of her children. It wasn't so much a "morality" issue since both defendants (my sister and brother-in-law) both agreed to participate together in extramarital relationships.

 

Unfortunately, my sister shot herself in the foot when she left her husband and children behind for two weeks with a note stating that she was off to visit some friends. However, while she was gone another letter turned up on her computer and was immediately submitted to an attorney as evidence. This letter clearly indicated "intent" of abandonment, even though she did eventually return home to find the locks had been changed. It was a letter to the other man who she was secretly meeting to spend two weeks with (not friends) … and it went on to say that she was prepared to leave her husband and children, and never return, if he was willing to make an honest go of their relationship once they had the opportunity to spend some real time together and talk.

 

That's all they needed to prove she acted neglectfully in the children's behalf. Because neither parent could reach an amicable decision regarding the children's future welfare, and my sister suddenly found herself without permanent residence and her husband's financial support while they hashed out the details of the divorce settlement … the courts had no choice but to side with the lesser of the two evils.

 

So one doesn't necessarily have to step into someone else's shoes and live the situation to get a pretty good first-hand account when it comes to the pain and devastation one careless decision and/or mistake can cost you. And while I feel just awful for the consequences my sister had to pay … my whole family had to pay as a result of losing the boys … the largest part of my sympathies goes out to those two innocent children who never, ever deserved what grown-ups did to them.

 

And that's just ONE of the many ugly skeletons in my family's closet that I chose to acknowledge and confront … even welcome it as a darn good lesson!

[GreenEyedLady]

Frannie... I seem to remember a post in which you stated that you don't have any children of your own. So, exactly how much worth should we attribute to your recommendations on child-rearing? When we do things we're not proud of, is it your suggestion that we sweep them up under the carpet then? Ignore them? Hope they go away? Sorry... NOTHING you say will make me agree that deliberate dishonesty is better than the factual truth. Personally, I'm not living with skeletons in MY closet. I'm less afraid of being embarrassed by the truth than of being caught in a lie. I lose less credibility in the eyes of those whose opinions REALLY count.

 

Lady Jane, I have two children...I left my XH because he was gay...I have never told them this, they will eventually figure that out...I merely told them that Mommy and Daddy love them very much but that we can't be married anymore...

 

Parents do not NEED to be completely honest with children, but they do need to PROTECT them until they are developmentally and emotionally ready to accept the truth...you are right that they see more than people think, that is why to tell them for the purpose of changing their feelings about their other parent is plain WRONG in my opinion...maybe you consider that honesty, but it's not...the intent is to place one parent as superior over the other...and as Freedom Now attests, children see through that as well, and it backfires on the parent....

 

My children have asked questions about the why of the D and I simply tell them that daddy was never home and spent all of his time with so and so...children do not need to know every little detail of their parents sex lives in order for it to be called truth...

[Freedom Now]

Green Eyed Lady....

 

You have said what I have not been able to articulate very well in a few short paragraphs. Perhaps this subject is too charged for me to be very articulate in my writing, so for putting into words what I have been trying to say....

 

Thank you.

[puddleofmud]

It is better to arm than to do nothing. Though they both may have had a verbal agreement, she did leave without direct communication and she lied about where she was (notes don't count) with her family which did translate legal abandonment. According to the court, for the children's welfare a parent whereabouts should be known at all times as they must be completly available and she LIED, which set the final the nail in the proverbial coffin.

It also sounds as if one spouse agreed than just laid in "wait" to use the affair and her leaving to get what they wanted--AND it could well be that that spouses' attorney advised they do so!!!

This is not an uncommon variable in the "just staying married for the children" scenario--one spouse may have a plan that the other doesn't have a clue about.

Without a specific separation maintanence agreement all was just verbal, thus the court made the decision for them.

So beware all who think that having an affair, yet lives w/in the home environment will provide legal protection. The court may be sympathetic.

Sorry to say, but in my voluntary court experience for the last 14 years staying in the home for the sake of the children doesn't usually work for so many many reasons.

Too often a spouse who insists upon this has been legally advised and has ulterior motives. And too often the court won't give a flying flip that the husband stayed or whom had an affair--the order of child custody and financial support will be set upon legal historical precedent, and not the particual situation at hand.

This person lost their case based on legal historical precedent as to abadonment, not that she may have actually abandoned her children...

[puddleofmud]

Lady Jane, I have two children...I left my XH because he was gay...I have never told them this, they will eventually figure that out...I merely told them that Mommy and Daddy love them very much but that we can't be married anymore...

 

Parents do not NEED to be completely honest with children, but they do need to PROTECT them until they are developmentally and emotionally ready to accept the truth...you are right that they see more than people think, that is why to tell them for the purpose of changing their feelings about their other parent is plain WRONG in my opinion...maybe you consider that honesty, but it's not...the intent is to place one parent as superior over the other...and as Freedom Now attests, children see through that as well, and it backfires on the parent....

 

My children have asked questions about the why of the D and I simply tell them that daddy was never home and spent all of his time with so and so...children do not need to know every little detail of their parents sex lives in order for it to be called truth...

 

This is so wonderful that you did not make your ex look like the bad guy!

How old are your children? Do they see their father?

Are they old enough to understand what "gay" is? I just ask because I am very involved in the Gay community for many reasons, one being many successful Gay/ Lesbian adoptions about which I was court ordered as a volunteer.

Also, more divorces than one could imagine happen because one spouse is actually gay or lesbian. I have seen the most BEAUTIFUL examples of parenting and love for children come from the gay community, their ex-spouses and their families. I have also seen the most well adjusted children living within the hetero~ family and and homo~ family.

Factually, my son's God-fFather just happens to be a gay man. They adore him and know that we all would trust him with our lives.

I think you are doing such a lovely job in honoring your child's parentage!

[GreenEyedLady]

Thanks! It's hard on me sometimes...but it has gotten so much better...I had to come to the conclusion that I didn't MAKE him gay...

 

My children are in kinder and 2nd grade...they see their father regularly: every other weekend and one night during the week...his 'partner' does live with him, but they don't sleep in the same bed when the kids are there (their choice, I had nothing to do with that) and my x calls him his 'best friend' but everyone's knows better...

 

I love my kids and he does too, and since we'll always be their parents, why have animosity towards each other? At one point we loved each other enough to make them, so I think working together and respecting each other is in everyone's best interest...my hope is to leave a legacy of love and cooperation as opposed to hate and destruction...

[Trialbyfire]

Well duh. People don't necessarily have to be married to raise healthy kids. But they ought to at least be honest and respectful.... not only with the other parent, but also with the children.

 

Lots of divorced people raise perfectly well adjusted kids, and they don't desert them emotionally or physically. As Puddle has so eloquently pointed out, it's possible to adopt all kinds of parenting strategies. But the key is to put the kids first, not personal lives and not secrecy.

In a nutshell but then, more than likely, the spouse would not have gotten into an affair in the first place.

[puddleofmud]

In a nutshell but then, more than likely, the spouse would not have gotten into an affair in the first place.

 

I do agree that children should not have to be the result of their parent's mistakes, and ALL parents make mistakes, PERIOD. MANY, many mistakes and some are far worse than affairs!

I have seen this in the courts to the point that one would loose all the strength in their body to have to hear it. I cannot go in to detail as that would be most disrespectful towards these parents and CHILDREN (I have also been called to spend time with children who have commited very violent crimes and one actually is now on "Death Row".) He was seventeen at the time of sentence and he is now 24 and a much different person. He has no chance for appeal and it won't be long before he leaves the "row".

I do not advocate affairs in general or personally, if anything I am an advocate of honesty and children being loved and cared for. I am an advocate of committed LIFE LONG marriage, I am an advocate of monogamy and I am an advocate of loving families, but no family/ person is perfect.

Persons have the right to recover from mistakes and to learn whatever it takes to allow them this.

This kind of statement negates that and I am so sad when I see this from others.

I want to encourage persons to recover and I am trying my best to do the same.

I don't live in a glass house, thus I don't throw stones, and I don't know who would be so arrogant as to do that as I am not God.

Though, I am not a Christian, as when the Lord and Savior for so many, Jesus Christ, was cruxified he welcomed his fellow cruxified brother who was admitted personal accountibility for his sins to sit at his side in the Kingdom in Heaven.

Such a beautiful story about forgiveness and love...

Thus, is it purposeful to akin those within and affair or those who have had one as to be unloving parents? To judge them from afar?

Or is wiser to allow them their stories and to accept their pain and to encourage their accountibilty without blame, thus their healing and their family's healing?

Which one would work better if the situation was turned upon YOU?

[Trialbyfire]

I do agree that children should not have to be the result of their parent's mistakes, and ALL parents make mistakes, PERIOD. MANY, many mistakes and some are far worse than affairs!

I have seen this in the courts to the point that one would loose all the strength in their body to have to hear it. I cannot go in to detail as that would be most disrespectful towards these parents and CHILDREN (I have also been called to spend time with children who have commited very violent crimes and one actually is now on "Death Row".) He was seventeen at the time of sentence and he is now 24 and a much different person. He has no chance for appeal and it won't be long before he leaves the "row".

I do not advocate affairs in general or personally, if anything I am an advocate of honesty and children being loved and cared for. I am an advocate of committed LIFE LONG marriage, I am an advocate of monogamy and I am an advocate of loving families, but no family/ person is perfect.

Persons have the right to recover from mistakes and to learn whatever it takes to allow them this.

This kind of statement negates that and I am so sad when I see this from others.

I want to encourage persons to recover and I am trying my best to do the same.

I don't live in a glass house, thus I don't throw stones, and I don't know who would be so arrogant as to do that as I am not God.

Though, I am not a Christian, as when the Lord and Savior for so many, Jesus Christ, was cruxified he welcomed his fellow cruxified brother who was admitted personal accountibility for his sins to sit at his side in the Kingdom in Heaven.

Such a beautiful story about forgiveness and love...

Thus, is it purposeful to akin those within and affair or those who have had one as to be unloving parents? To judge them from afar?

Or is wiser to allow them their stories and to accept their pain and to encourage their accountibilty without blame, thus their healing and their family's healing?

Which one would work better if the situation was turned upon YOU?

A person who's involved in an affair takes no one else into consideration in the first place. They do not take into account the spouse and worse yet, the children.

 

I have no difficulty with someone who makes an honest relationship afterwards but I don't have any respect for someone who won't and uses the children as an excuse. I see no reason to turn the other cheek over someone who's completely selfish.

[puddleofmud]

I do agree w/ that statement in general. However, I would not agree that using an affair as moral barometer/ excuse to allow one's own sick behavior.

[puddleofmud]

Thanks! It's hard on me sometimes...but it has gotten so much better...I had to come to the conclusion that I didn't MAKE him gay...

 

My children are in kinder and 2nd grade...they see their father regularly: every other weekend and one night during the week...his 'partner' does live with him, but they don't sleep in the same bed when the kids are there (their choice, I had nothing to do with that) and my x calls him his 'best friend' but everyone's knows better...

 

I love my kids and he does too, and since we'll always be their parents, why have animosity towards each other? At one point we loved each other enough to make them, so I think working together and respecting each other is in everyone's best interest...my hope is to leave a legacy of love and cooperation as opposed to hate and destruction...

 

Wow! AGAIN, sooo wonderful! Have you and your EX talked about how to explain homosexuality with them? You don't have to answer if you don't wish, and forgive me if I am being forward. You know, my son's Godfather who is gay and unmarried/ attached (for the time being and I hope not forever should I have anything to do with it!) has adopted twice. He is also American Indian & has an open adoption since his son was born and is now 8 and has just adopted via an open adoption a little newborn girl, both tribal members but also bi-racial like he and I. He will be home w. her tomorrow and I can't wait to slobber all over her.

I am also thinking of adopting as I have no reason not to and every reason to do so! My sons and I have talked about it at length and I don't seem to be able to get it off my mind...soooo, it could happen!

But his son and he have talked about him being gay from about the time his son was about four or five. His son just seems to forget it about it like it's yesterday's news...we keep thinking at some point there will be a strong reaction, just haven't seen it yet.

[Ladyjane14]

Lady Jane, I have two children...I left my XH because he was gay...I have never told them this, they will eventually figure that out...I merely told them that Mommy and Daddy love them very much but that we can't be married anymore...

 

GEL, I think it's great that you're trying not to undermine your kids relationship with their father, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't tell them the truth. Afterall, if you have girls, aren't you going to tell them about menstruation before they find out on their own? (My mom actually thought she was dying when she got her first period. No one had prepared her for it.)

 

Why would you let your babies hear words like "homo" or "fag" from kids on the playground at school? Why not give them the correct information BEFORE they can connect the derogatory terminology they're bound to hear from ignorant sources to their own father? Fact is, we've already discussed sexual orientation around here from an early age and it doesn't even apply to us in such an intimate way as it does to you.

 

What you told them essentially was a lie. You stated very clearly that you left him because he's gay. But you told the kids some vanilla tale about Mommy and Daddy loving them very much but not being able to be married anymore. What's scarier? That people sometimes turn out to have a sexual attraction to their own gender, or that people can stop loving each other for apparently very vague reasons?

 

Parents do not NEED to be completely honest with children, but they do need to PROTECT them until they are developmentally and emotionally ready to accept the truth...

 

Are we talking about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny? Or are we talking about the REAL reason that Mommy and Daddy don't live with each other anymore?

 

I have to be honest, I have some regrets about allowing the fantasy of Santa et al. I'm not likely to forget how my face burned when my youngest at the age of 10 demanded to know who brought the presents and hid the Easter eggs, and I finally had to admit it was ME.

 

That may sound silly, but it was a CLEAR departure from the normal level of candor my kids expect. And they busted my ass for it too.

 

Developmentally and emotionally, these tales were in line with their age group.... normal fare. When making the choice to forward these traditions or no, it seemed kind of wrong to deprive them of this childhood experience and the fun that goes with it. But was it a lie? Yeah, it was. And although it's not proven to be damaging to them psychologically, they were kind of disappointed in me for perpetuating it, and in a small way... they felt a little stupid for being taken in by it.

 

that is why to tell them for the purpose of changing their feelings about their other parent is plain WRONG in my opinion...maybe you consider that honesty, but it's not...the intent is to place one parent as superior over the other...and as Freedom Now attests, children see through that as well, and it backfires on the parent....

 

I would hope that's a generic statement and NOT directed at me, because I've never said anything REMOTELY like that. The intent of giving age appropriate information to children should ALWAYS be to educate them so they can understand their world, and to protect them from misinformation.

 

My children have asked questions about the why of the D and I simply tell them that daddy was never home and spent all of his time with so and so...children do not need to know every little detail of their parents sex lives in order for it to be called truth...

 

How does this protect them again?

What I hear is that Daddy preferred spending his time away from home and in the company of 'so and so'. It sounds more like a choice to NOT be with them than a reason mandated by his sexual orientation.

 

I'm sorry, I think a great opportunity is being missed here.... a chance to educate and inform, and to prepare your kids BEFORE they're exposed to sociatally driven biases. To withhold this information seems to me a tacit declaration that there's something unwholesome that Daddy should be embarrassed about.

 

And you know.. even if there IS something unwholesome here. Say, he cheated on you, mislead you, or whatever. He ought to be man enough to 'own' his own junk on that, man enough to teach his kids the right way to treat somebody and to rectify it if that's not what he did it.

 

I just think that as parents, we ought to have an ongoing dialogue with our kids. Not some big, formal deal where secrets and lies are dramatically brought out into the daylight. Information should be exchanged matter-of-factly and whatever questions come up ought to be dignified with real answers.... even when the answer is "I dunno, honey. But I'm sure we're gonna get it all figured out."

[GreenEyedLady]

LadyJane, it is good that you didn't leave your H because I see that you would be unreasonable in a D situation...I don't subscribe to your sense of right and wrong...and I'm glad that your children won't be faced with the honesty you would give them...

 

I have done what is right with my children...I left my H because he loved someone else and a myriad of other reasons, not just because he is GAY...and it is his business to tell them when he chooses, not mine...HE is the one who is embarrassed, not me and I respect that...

 

And another thing, he preferred to not be in my company, I didn't even suggest that he chose to be away from the kids, he chose to be away from me...

 

But now, I'm done with your comments...I don't think that you are right, in fact I think you are WRONG...and when it's all said and done, I think I've done right by my kids and that's all that matters...

 

I have an ongoing dialogue with my children and it is appropriate to their age and understanding...

[Ladyjane14]

But now, I'm done with your comments...I don't think that you are right, in fact I think you are WRONG...

 

Right back at ya, dearie.

[Trialbyfire]

I do agree w/ that statement in general. However, I would not agree that using an affair as moral barometer/ excuse to allow one's own sick behavior.

Since I made no comment previously about sick behaviour or not, I won't disagree with your comment. Level of morality is variable depending on the persons involved. Some have a high level of morality, others have none.

[Can'tGiveUp]

LadyJane, it is good that you didn't leave your H because I see that you would be unreasonable in a D situation...I don't subscribe to your sense of right and wrong...and I'm glad that your children won't be faced with the honesty you would give them...

 

I have done what is right with my children...I left my H because he loved someone else and a myriad of other reasons, not just because he is GAY...and it is his business to tell them when he chooses, not mine...HE is the one who is embarrassed, not me and I respect that...

 

And another thing, he preferred to not be in my company, I didn't even suggest that he chose to be away from the kids, he chose to be away from me...

 

But now, I'm done with your comments...I don't think that you are right, in fact I think you are WRONG...and when it's all said and done, I think I've done right by my kids and that's all that matters...

 

I have an ongoing dialogue with my children and it is appropriate to their age and understanding...

 

Good for you GEL! I can't even begin to imagine your situation but it certainly sounds like you know what you are doing. Age/maturity appropriate discussions are all that should be happening with your kids.

 

Mine are well "educated" in respect to gay lifestyle as is appropiate for them. My closest friends are gay and teaching my children to be tolerant of others lives and choices whether it be gays or inter-racial relationships or cultural differences...tolerance is the main lesson.

 

I answer questions openly and honestly with as much detail as I think they are ready for...they continue to ask if they want more information. We have some wonderful discussions where I think all of us come out a little wiser.

[Trialbyfire]

lol, hard to imagine taking offense when your man is after another man...

[NoIDidn't]

Herenow, my apologies.

 

Frannie and Freedom Now

 

I was not talking about your specific situation, so no need for the hostility. I was talking about the general nonsense of expecting a woman that is being dumped via betrayal to be selfless and not tell the truth concerning their father's actions. To be honest, Free, I wasn't thinking of your situation at ALL. Nothing to do with you. Nada. Zilch. Capeesh.

 

And Frannie the dig about me and my past or whatever....I have no idea of what you were speaking. A question was asked of Enigma as if she couldn't have an opinion in the event that she had be betrayed and had not gotten over it. Seriously, you should READ before you go blasting.

[NoIDidn't]

GEL

 

I honestly don't know what I would have done in your situation. My ethnicity is not very friendly towards gays, while I myself have no problem with them, I'd still be embarrassed. Embarrassed for myself feeling that I couldn't tell /didn't know he was gay. Embarrassed for my kids and the heckling they might/might not get as they grow up and people find out. But this is me. I can't say you are right or wrong because it is not my sitch. We do the best we can with what we have at the time, right?

 

I do believe in protecting my kids from things they might not be ready to encounter, though. I believe in protecting my kids from things that I might not be ready to handle with them too. That might make me a coward in the eyes of some, but that's okay. I gotta live with me and my decisions.

 

Hope you are having a good one.