To the OW whose MM are staying for the kids

[herenow]

Yes we agree that it's ok to stay married with someone you want to stay married to. As long as they want to be married to you.

 

It doesn't necessarily follow that anyone has to begin a conversation with their spouse about the reasons they're in a marriage. As I said before, I find it hard to imagine a situation in which one would sit down and say, you know, spouse, I've been thinking about the reasons I've not divorced you (cue incredulous look), and they look a bit thin, but if you're happy to stick with it I am too. I mean... what kind of situation are you referring to..? OK it might happen post D-day, but out of the blue..? It's a conversation that might well lead to MC and all sorts of things you don't want to make the effort with. I think most people don't even THINK why they're still married unless their marriage is truly dire, and/or they've found someone else. So the situation wouldn't even come into anyone's head. Or am I missing something?

 

Not giving reasons why you're still married to someone doesn't mean you're 'making a decision for your spouse'. It means it just hasn't come up. Each spouse has a perfect right to walk away from a marriage they don't like. If W isn't happy with what MM is doing... she can end it just as much as he can. But as I said, maybe she's just as happy to continue with a M for her own reasons. No one is making decisions for the other.

 

I'm talking about the situation where a conscious decision has been made by the MM to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to for whatever reason. The subject has come up, but the wife hasn't be let in on the conversation. The decision has been made by the MM and she lives in the dark. Would you be OK with another person making any kind of decision for you without you being a part of the process? It's not like he's ordering dinner for her, he's dealing with important life choices. I don't care how it's brought up in conversation, it should be discussed before the decision is made.

[herenow]

Without regard for anyone else?? How can you possibly say that with any credibility? You don't know the man, or what his situation is, or what his plans are. If he really had no regard for anyone else he'd have walked out of that house YEARS ago.

 

You seem to think I'm talking about someone specific. I'm having a general conversation. In my opinion, MM who have affairs disrespect their wives, kids and the OW. But, that's my opinion, I respect yours.

[herenow]

herenow, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told lasan. Life isnt always fair. Unless you live in a bubble, that is just one of the many hardships of our lives as betrayed women. You should learn to deal with disappointment because not everything in marriage is going to work out exactly the way that it should. It's just a fact, herenow.

 

I'm not saying that you are wrong. If I had any control over Romeo's affair I would demand perfection, loyalty, and above all else the decency to give me an *out* so that I could seek companionship of my own as well, but that is not possible as the affair was never in my control.

 

What I can control are my own thoughts and actions. Thats all anyone can really handle. God gives us the power over our lives to make our own decisions. I would rather have the most honest answer of them all by going with Free Will. Win or lose that is the gamble we all take in life.

 

 

Best post of the day! I agree 100%.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

"I'm glad we agree that a healthy relationship requires honesty"

 

HN, you are so darn agreeable! Good answer!

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Romeo,

 

You are so darn smart, wanta be my mentor? I'll bring the Kool - aid.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I stand by that, and my argument was that MM shouldn't have to give up his own happiness (i.e. give up on the (currently) affair and future with me) just because it would be best for his W.

 

So none of us should ever consider the welfare of others so long as we're getting what we want … no matter the consequence to those we backstab, betray and trample on in our endless pursuit of self gratification? Yet … in return, we should expect to be treated in a more courteous manner by others and shown the respect that we, ourselves, are not capable of extending???

 

I wonder how many of us would really enjoy living in a world surrounded by people who shared that same philosophy? What I find most amusing is the irrefutable fact that even dishonest and selfish people don't take too kindly to others being selfish and dishonest with them.

 

I don't know. But seems to me if one was genuinely happy with the kind of person they were and the kind of life they were leading, they would want to shout it out to the world and live their truths in the light. Not hide behind lies, secrets and phony pretenses … pretending to all those whose opinions of you matter that you're someone that you're not.

 

It seems a sad, but oh-so-obvious contradiction of words vs. actions.

 

I think if some small part of us wasn't honestly concerned about the opinions of others or how the rest of the world saw us, then we wouldn't have any reason to tippy-toe around, hide who we are, and make excuses for all the not-so-nice things we do behind peoples back when we think no one is watching. The very fact that one even acknowledges that their actions would bring harm and/or hurt to an innocent party; and thereby goes to such great lengths to conceal it; proves (by default) that they already know in their heart-of-hearts that what they are doing is just plain wrong … In spite of their words, justifications and silly excuses.

[frannie]

I'm talking about the situation where a conscious decision has been made by the MM to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to for whatever reason. The subject has come up, but the wife hasn't be let in on the conversation. The decision has been made by the MM and she lives in the dark. Would you be OK with another person making any kind of decision for you without you being a part of the process? It's not like he's ordering dinner for her, he's dealing with important life choices. I don't care how it's brought up in conversation, it should be discussed before the decision is made.

 

If a MM has decided to stay married, then he's commited himself to that.

 

Whether or not he (or she) throw themselves into making the relationship between them work is another matter, and I think that's more what you're talking about. I think that if my MM's wife came to him and said she wanted to work on the marriage, he'd have been keen to do that a while ago. But, it takes two, and she bought out of being part of 'them' a while back. So did he. I don't think he owes her anything as regards 'honesty' about why he's stayed these past few years. Maybe he doesn't even know himself really. It's odd the way men who were on the brink of leaving suddenly don't do it in the end. It's easy to look at a situation and sum it up in a few lines and say what this or that person should be doing, but we're not the people involved; they are.

 

What can I say? People stay married for all sorts of reasons. I don't really understand it because as far as I'm concerned, it's the relationship that matters to me, not whether there's a piece of paper involved. (But I suppose that also answers a lot of questions about 'why I put up with an affair'... because I like what we have together as people)

[frannie]

You seem to think I'm talking about someone specific. I'm having a general conversation. In my opinion, MM who have affairs disrespect their wives, kids and the OW. But, that's my opinion, I respect yours.

 

OK, that's fair enough and I respect your opinion too.

[frannie]

So none of us should ever consider the welfare of others so long as we're getting what we want …

 

Err, no. I didn't say that and nor do I agree with it.

[frannie]

But seems to me if one was genuinely happy with the kind of person they were and the kind of life they were leading, they would want to shout it out to the world and live their truths in the light. Not hide behind lies, secrets and phony pretenses … pretending to all those whose opinions of you matter that you're someone that you're not.

 

Well personally I'm not hiding "who I am" to those closest to me. Not only do they know about the affair, but they've met MM. Or perhaps you mean MM..? Well it seems to me pretty obvious why he hasn't told his wife he's in love with another woman. Hardly something to 'tell the World' about

 

Not sure who you mean when you talk about 'those whose opinions of you matter'... unless you mean the children, and in that I will agree: I don't want them to know how our relationship began. Again, for obvious reasons! They're children! I think you'll find that an AWFUL lot of marriages you see around you began as affairs... it's just not something people go talking about. NOT because anyone is ashamed themselves of what they've done, but because other people really love a good scandal. Makes for a really easy way of putting others down, unless you hadn't noticed Really, there is a lot of pretended naivety going on on this board this evening.

[Romeo Must Die]

You don't have to look too far to seek the truth. It's inside you. I've had my darkest days where I was crying on a heap on the floor over this mess but he could never break my spirit. I got back up and I turned around and walked on my own two feet. I didnt have anyone to carry me.

 

I had no control over the affair, what my husband did or didn't do for me, nor did I have any power to change it back to what it was. I wanted things the way things used to be, but that was asking for the impossible. I could still become a good person with or without him. That I didnt need to look into his eyes to see myself shine.

 

 

For everything you do, I’d like to swallow you

And everyday I’m gonna blame you

Even if you could justify every fu*cking bullsh*it lie

It only makes me want to break you

You pull me down and you crucify my name

You make me insane

It’s broken now so don’t ever look my way

Don’t even think I’m playin because I fu*cking hate you

You’re such a liar and I'd love to hang you

When you repeatedly take advantage of me

The only thought I get of you sickens me

Everybody knows your fake

You’re everything I fu*cking hate

And I’m everything that you could never be...

 

~ Godsmack ~

 

[EnigmaXOXO]

seems to me pretty obvious why he hasn't told his wife he's in love with another woman. Hardly something to 'tell the World' about

 

OF COURSE it's obvious! It's easier for 'good hubby' to play show-and-tell to the rest of the world with his wife and kids than proclaiming his love out loud for a mistress. Especially when he's become comfortable with putting on aires for the sake of his good name and reputation.

 

Label it a put-down if that's what you consider it. But there's absolutely nothing about defrauding people that anyone should feel proud about or be congratulated for.

 

Not sure who you mean when you talk about 'those whose opinions of you matter'... unless you mean the children, and in that I will agree: I don't want them to know how our relationship began. Again, for obvious reasons! They're children!

 

Why? Because you're worried that the truth might change their perception of you and their Daddy? You know … wreck the illusion and shatter their innocence?? Afraid they won't respect the situation and welcome you with open arms if the real story ever got out??

 

If it's so right and justifiable, then why the need to retell the story and create fairy tales in it's place?

 

And what about this man's wife? … Is she to be treated like a child and sheltered from the ugly truth as well? For her own benefit … of course.

 

Who's really fostering naivety, here?

 

NOT because anyone is ashamed themselves of what they've done, but because other people really love a good scandal.

 

That's bullsh*t Frannie, and you darn well know it. The only one selling and buying that crap is you and that married man. And others who have found themselves in similar situations. But I understand the mentality behind it. After all, there's no way any self respecting person with any semblance of a conscience could convince themselves to willingly participate in the railroading another human being unless they somehow made it "okay" in their minds to do so. We've all been guilty of self placating at one time or another. Some more than others.

 

But, in real life … time brings light to all truths. And "naïve" is the person who tries to convince themselves otherwise and hangs precariously on the hope that should the facts ever surface, those betrayed by the cover-up should (as concerned individuals) also be willing to perpetuate the fluffy fairy tale and play coconspirators as well. The problem is, not everyone has allowed themselves to become anesthetized and comfortable with living a dishonest life as some others have. It certainly isn't a place most of us would want to settle in and call "home."

 

I think you'll find that an AWFUL lot of marriages you see around you began as affairs... it's just not something people go talking about..

 

And if so … why not?

 

I've seen an awful lot of affairs. An awful lot of marriages, too. And although I've seen a lot of marriages end because of infidelity, I personally don't know of one that began with an affair. Statistically speaking, those that do have a shorter life span (given all the complications) than those that were allowed to develop and blossom in the full light of day. But I expect that some of us are just destined to eventually figure this out for themselves the hard way.

[sadbuttrue]

enigma i think that was just mean

[EnigmaXOXO]

enigma i think that was just mean

 

You're right.

 

But than again … so is lying, betraying and cheating on the people who trust and depend on you the most. And so is slipping in the back door of someone else's marriage.

 

I think THAT'S mean spirited.

[bonehead]

What I'm saying is that the MM isn't the only parent and should not be making choices by himself as to what is best for the kids. It's also not his place to decide for his wife (the mother of the kids) to stay in a marriage that he is not committed to. How is it that he has the right to run everyones lives with lies and deceit?

 

I agree whole heartedly.

 

If you want this corrected push for fathers to be treated as EQUALS in parenting!!!!!!!!

 

MM doesnt have the right to to make that choice by himself just as BS doesnt have the right to decided he cant see his kids but twice a month.

 

Until you have gone through this process and seen it from a MANS view you will not understand what its like for a MAN

[GreenEyedLady]

You're right.

 

But than again … so is lying, betraying and cheating on the people who trust and depend on you the most.

 

Direct that to where it belongs: with your H...

[pricillia]

Ok so how long can this go on for.... how long can you be ok with him going home and sharing his time with someone else.

 

Doesn't it make you all sad that he is not sharing his bed with you, doesn't it make you all sad that he is not able to be there for you emotionally because he is torn in two....

 

doesn't it make you sad that he is lying to her and possibly you to have the best of both worlds as much as you love him or he loves you.....

 

Doesn't it break you heart.... come on how strong can one be..... is it really supposed to be like this, no matter how educated one is no matter how well read no matter how successfull, or wealthy... doesn't it eat at you.... it has to it just has to, I know it eats away at me...

[sadbuttrue]

Ok so how long can this go on for.... how long can you be ok with him going home and sharing his time with someone else.

 

Doesn't it make you all sad that he is not sharing his bed with you, doesn't it make you all sad that he is not able to be there for you emotionally because he is torn in two....

 

doesn't it make you sad that he is lying to her and possibly you to have the best of both worlds as much as you love him or he loves you.....

 

Doesn't it break you heart.... come on how strong can one be..... is it really supposed to be like this, no matter how educated one is no matter how well read no matter how successfull, or wealthy... doesn't it eat at you.... it has to it just has to, I know it eats away at me...

 

pricillia, of course it is a sad situation, i dont know if there is anyone here who doesnt feel bad about the way things are with MM. it does hurt, but some of us love MM more than we care about the hurt that comes with it.

[GreenEyedLady]

Ok so how long can this go on for.... how long can you be ok with him going home and sharing his time with someone else.

 

Doesn't it make you all sad that he is not sharing his bed with you, doesn't it make you all sad that he is not able to be there for you emotionally because he is torn in two....

 

doesn't it make you sad that he is lying to her and possibly you to have the best of both worlds as much as you love him or he loves you.....

 

Doesn't it break you heart.... come on how strong can one be..... is it really supposed to be like this, no matter how educated one is no matter how well read no matter how successfull, or wealthy... doesn't it eat at you.... it has to it just has to, I know it eats away at me...

 

P: Everyone is different...mine will go on until one of two things happen: he leaves her or I leave him...right now my needs are being met and I am happy...not everyone has a situation where he works 9-5 and goes home...I actually don't feel I am being treated as second or if I did, you're right, I WOULD have a problem with it...

 

I am not having the feelings you are describing now...if I were, I would be doing something about the situation...right now progress is being made and I'm willing to wait and see...

 

I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad and I hope that you are able to make a choice that will help you feel better about yourself and life in general...Best of luck...GEL

[sadbuttrue]

You're right.

 

But than again … so is lying, betraying and cheating on the people who trust and depend on you the most. And so is slipping in the back door of someone else's marriage.

 

I think THAT'S mean spirited.

 

enigma, yes lying, betraying, and cheating are all wrong. i am sure everyone here would admit that. OW are not the only ones doing the lying, betraying, and cheating. MM play a big part in that as well. i do not feel like i "slipped in the back door" of MM's M. i did not chase him down and force this on him. he is simply unhappy at home and looking for comfort/love elsewhere. i am guessing that your H must have cheated on you, right? you seem like you are still having a lot of difficulty accepting what happened there.

[bonehead]

If you want this corrected push for fathers to be treated as EQUALS in parenting!!!!!!!!

 

MM doesnt have the right to to make that choice by himself just as BS doesnt have the right to decided he cant see his kids but twice a month.

 

Until you have gone through this process and seen it from a MANS view you will not understand what its like for a MAN

[bonehead]

Seeing as how people are getting into the aspects of affairs in general, thought I would repost and see if we cant bring it back ot the original issue.

[NoIDidn't]

i am guessing that your H must have cheated on you, right? you seem like you are still having a lot of difficulty accepting what happened there.

 

So WTF is that supposed to mean? Because enigma may have been betrayed, that his/her opinion is invalid? WTF?? Many never betrayed individuals feel the same. Many, otherwise affairs wouldn't be held in secret. Otherwise people wouldn't have a problem admitting that they met and dated BEFORE the divorce was even initiated.

 

This and frannie's statement about the wife being selfless and not poisoning the kids' minds against their father for doing something hurtful to their family unit get my vote for the most insensitive and dumb comments of the day. You are no doubt entitled to your opinion and free to state them. But I am also free to call bullsh*t too.

[frannie]

There's absolutely nothing about defrauding people that anyone should feel proud about or be congratulated for.

 

Why? Because you're worried that the truth might change their perception of you and their Daddy? You know … wreck the illusion and shatter their innocence?? Afraid they won't respect the situation and welcome you with open arms if the real story ever got out??

 

If it's so right and justifiable, then why the need to retell the story and create fairy tales in it's place?

 

And what about this man's wife? … Is she to be treated like a child and sheltered from the ugly truth as well? For her own benefit … of course.

 

After all, there's no way any self respecting person with any semblance of a conscience could convince themselves to willingly participate in the railroading another human being unless they somehow made it "okay" in their minds to do so.

 

And although I've seen a lot of marriages end because of infidelity, I personally don't know of one that began with an affair. Statistically speaking, those that do have a shorter life span (given all the complications) than those that were allowed to develop and blossom in the full light of day. But I expect that some of us are just destined to eventually figure this out for themselves the hard way.

 

I've never asked to be congratulated for, nor felt 'proud' of being in an affair. Not sure where you go that idea from. Probably from the fact that I said I'm happy, and I haven't come to the boards complaining about something and in pain and misery. Nor do I accept any of the general putting down of people involved in affairs simply because of this one aspect of them as a person taken right out of context. You'll have to find someone else to take out your annoyance on because I'm just not interested in it.

 

No, I'm not 'worried' the children's perception of their Dad would change if his marriage ends because of an affair. Of course it would, that's a given. Children don't need to know adult things about their parents while they're children. What you do with your family is your affair, but no children MM has anything to do with will be voluntarily exposed to such things unless it can be handled maturely by the adults around, and that's not a given (though it may turn out that that's what MM decides).

 

If you read my previous posts you'll see that I've never, not once, said that affairs were either 'right' OR 'justifiable', but if it suits your rant to assume that that's my position, fine. You're wrong.

 

MM will make the decision, as he discusses separation, whether or not it's relevant to tell his W about us. Personally, I'm half-and-half on the issue, but I don't know her, he does. So it's up to him, not me (and certainly not YOU!) to decided what's 'best' for people to know and when. And yes it IS about perception and people's reactions. My opinion on this is that if it will help her to let go and move on, and she won't get vindictive as far as the children and access are concerned (I'm not talking legally, I'm talking about ease of communication, poisoning minds, and so on) then I think it might be best to tell her, and then it's out in the open. On the other hand, since they are getting divorced it will shortly be none of her business what he does, and I see no reason why we should have to declare our business to her and give her ammunition for the rest of his life to beat him around the head with (if that's her personality). As I say: that's his judgment call.

 

Personally, yes, I do think it's 'ok' for us to keep these things hidden. I don't see that her knowing her H was having an affair for the last 3 years of her marriage will be a positive piece of news. Certainly I'd not really want to know and have to deal with that on top of a divorce. But I know all people aren't the same as me, and so I can't sit her and say what 'would be best' for her. And hellooo... neither can YOU.

 

You might not personally know any marriages that started with an affair, but that's my point: you won't... because people don't go spreading that news around. Why? Because of people like YOU. Get it? Not because people are ashamed of themselves, but because people like you can't just leave others alone to get on with their lives the best they can, or even lend a hand... no... it has to be a big bashing exercise.

 

There have been people on this board whose parents got together because of an affair: people on this thread even, if I remember rightly! And, it might surprise you to know that I know two couples who got together in just such a way. But these things don't happen in your life, right..? Probably because people know what your reaction would be they don't tell you

 

And finally, thanks for your fairy-badmother wishes on my relationship. I'm not going to return the sentiment because I'm not feeling so mean-spirited, it being my birthday and all.

[frannie]

This and frannie's statement about the wife being selfless and not poisoning the kids' minds against their father for doing something hurtful to their family unit get my vote for the most insensitive and dumb comments of the day. You are no doubt entitled to your opinion and free to state them. But I am also free to call bullsh*t too.

 

Well you might think that scenario is bullsh*t, but you'll have to take that up with Freedom Now, who posted the story of her father leaving and how her mother handled it, back on one of the earlier pages of the thread. I wasn't being 'insensitive and dumb' I was talking about what actually happens when these things come to light, and how it can seriously damage children to be dragged into things while the BS is still very raw (and Freedom Now was 19 at the time if I remember correctly).