Morals reguarding Affairs, mainly regurding the OW.

[MySugaree]

Is morality a function of who we are or what we do?

 

I define a person by the sum of his choices as opposed to his self-regard. Judgment lies on the plane of action, not in the mirror.

[syz]

Regardless of whether we want to argue the finer points of self respect or not... I found I don't want to be the supporting actress in my own life.. I want to be the lead and nothing short of that will work for me. I cannot abide being the OW.

 

Morality is a function of both who we are and what we do.. we are our actions...even when no one is looking.

[norajane]

Or how about a person can have morals but not always make the 'moral' choice?

 

Sure. Happens all the time.

 

But what good is having the morals if we don't make moral choices?

[frannie]

Sure. Happens all the time.

 

But what good is having the morals if we don't make moral choices?

 

Absolutely! But then one could say that if our morals are never put to the test once can hold any morals one wishes and never have to actually make any tough decisions.

 

At the end of the day, one's morals are one's own affair, and we have to stand up and be counted for the choices we've made as individuals. Moral codes differ, life experience, individual situations all make these choices challenging. It is incredibly easy to throw stones when you've never been in a particular situation, incredibly easy to apply black-and-white when you've not been faced with chosing between a rock and a hard place.

 

I don't consider what I'm doing to be morally 'right' by even my own standards. But I'm prepared to stand up and be counted for it. And accept all the wrong decisions, mistakes and everything else I've done that's contributed to my situation. That's what maturity is.

 

Personally I find it morally reprehensible for people to come onto message boards and berate others who are at emotional low points. But each to their own.

[Fly My Pretties]

I think sometimes even OW get blindsided by what they consider moral. Perhaps it's only fair that I start out by saying that I am not a BS but I do consider infidelity immoral.

 

Okay, so onto my point, which might be a bit fuzzy but I am thinking as I type. As I say, I think many OWs know deep down that they are acting immorally, but it's very difficult for any individual to admit this to themselves, which is why on these types of boards there is a lot of defensive behavior. I suppose a basic rule of thumb would be - would you cheerfully chat about your MM to your mother, your boss, your minister, all the while admitting he was married? Or do you avoid it? I suppose it could be argued that you avoid it because of "society's" interpretation of what is moral, rather than your own. But if you would feel genuine shame at talking about your MM with everyone in your community whose opinion matters to you, then it's an indication that you DO feel it's outside of your moral code.

 

Incidentally, I've always found the assertion that "BS should be concerned only with her H, don't blame me, I am not responsible, I didn't make the vows" etc etc to be faintly dubious; we all have responsibilities to other human beings and we relate and are accountable to the community as a whole, not just ourselves. I'm not saying that the OW betrayal is equal in magnitude to that of the MM, but it is a betrayal nonetheless, of one human being to another. A victim of assault will feel anger not only towards his attacker but also to the passersby who stepped over him.

[NightStarr8]

Morality is what people accuse others of not having when they don't like what others are believe or are doing, don't what to understand it, don't want to learn from others or accept that other people are different. People who think everyone else in the world should act, do, think and believe as they do, divide the world into moral and immoral people. People who appreciate and accept the differences in others, never do.

[Fly My Pretties]

But morality also forms the basis for the rules of society. Over the time, we have evolved into believing that murder, robbery and child pornography are wrong. The people that commit these crimes do not believe they are immoral. Should we just admit we all have our differences and forget about prosecuting people for them?

 

I know all that might come across as not relevant to the OW thing, it's a simplistic way of saying that morals ARE important, they form the basis of society.

[Guest]

My observation is:

 

If an affair ends with the dissolution of the marriage and the union (marriage) of the former MM and former OW, then people forget what they thought was "immoral". They may even congratulate the newly weds, now that this has become a legitimate relationship, another loving marriage.

 

On the other hand, if the affair "fails", i.e. the MM never divorces wife (either continues affair or ends affair), then those moralists are always happy to call it an immoral relationship.

 

The bottomline is whether the OW/OM "wins": If she/he wins (marries former MM/MW), then everything is justified. If she/he loses, too bad for her/him, both relationship-wise and reputation-wise.

[sadbuttrue]

i agree that morals are important too. i just dont think that making the mistake of being with a MM makes the OW immoral. when the OW decides she wants to take up with every MM that she sees just for the hell of it, then yes that would be immoral. i do not think there are OW like that here. most fell in love with MM. most also acknowledge their mistake and say that they would never put themselves in such a situation again. these R are not easy on OW, but when you love MM you can not just walk away so easily.

[Fly My Pretties]

i agree that morals are important too. i just dont think that making the mistake of being with a MM makes the OW immoral. when the OW decides she wants to take up with every MM that she sees just for the hell of it, then yes that would be immoral. i do not think there are OW like that here. most fell in love with MM. most also acknowledge their mistake and say that they would never put themselves in such a situation again. these R are not easy on OW, but when you love MM you can not just walk away so easily.

 

I see your point, however many people would say that while it is not immoral to have these feelings, it is immoral whether you do anything about it. You cannot control who you love, but you CAN control whether you act upon it. I'm not saying it's easy - ask anyone whose partner has been abusive/unfaithful/committed a crime - and they will tell you that it's easier said than done. You say that you would never put yourself in that situation again, which implies that you had some degree of control. And I would agree with you on that; I do not believe you were/are a helpless victim, to suggest otherwise would be to insult your intelligence.

[sadbuttrue]

i have never said that i was a helpless victim. now that i know what damage can be done by being involved with a MM, i will be much more cautious in the future so that there is no way of it happening again. when i fell in love with him i knew it was wrong, we had been friends first and i really cared about him. i meant that i would never allow myself to become so close to a MM again. i didnt realize at the time that our friendship would lead to love.

[MySugaree]

i have never said that i was a helpless victim. now that i know what damage can be done by being involved with a MM, i will be much more cautious in the future so that there is no way of it happening again. when i fell in love with him i knew it was wrong, we had been friends first and i really cared about him. i meant that i would never allow myself to become so close to a MM again. i didnt realize at the time that our friendship would lead to love.

 

I hear you. My now long ended love affair with a married woman began with our friendship. No one planned it. No one designed it. People can slip or fall or even stumble into an affair. The lack of specific intent to cheat does not excuse, it explains.

 

Never again. Never.

[herenow]

One question: Is it moral to lie?

[NoIDidn't]

If I embezzled funds from my previous employer, would you hire me as your accountant?

 

If I was an alcoholic that refused help but instead only wanted more of my drug of choice, would you place me in high esteem?

 

Chances are the answer to both of those questions is: No.

 

We are the sum total of our ACTIONS, not our words. Words are empty and meaningless unless there is some action behind it. Truth is, a person may make moral choices all day long (paying for items in a store instead of stealing them), but when no one else is looking we do an altogether different thing. Someone here already said it differently: morality is what you do when no one is looking.

 

Affairs are mostly carried on when no one is looking.

 

That and love doesn't justify anything. It is what it is. Accept it, don't try to redefine it. We all have "dark sides".

[pricillia]

If I embezzled funds from my previous employer, would you hire me as your accountant?

 

If I was an alcoholic that refused help but instead only wanted more of my drug of choice, would you place me in high esteem?

 

Chances are the answer to both of those questions is: No.

 

We are the sum total of our ACTIONS, not our words. Words are empty and meaningless unless there is some action behind it. Truth is, a person may make moral choices all day long (paying for items in a store instead of stealing them), but when no one else is looking we do an altogether different thing. Someone here already said it differently: morality is what you do when no one is looking.

 

Affairs are mostly carried on when no one is looking.

 

That and love doesn't justify anything. It is what it is. Accept it, don't try to redefine it. We all have "dark sides".

 

 

 

In some cases yes affairs are carried out when no one is looking, but one act of loving someone is an act that has underlying values, values of love.

 

No one can be summed up with one act to be called someone with no morals. I am talking strictly OW/OM here.

[pricillia]

One question: Is it moral to lie?

 

 

my point is, that it has been said over and over again that the OW is lacking morals or has none, and I do not believe that to be the case.

 

If one is having an affair just for the sex it is a selfish act, I could never do that.

 

But these relationships allot of them are caring loving relatioships, but when you are lied to it hurts, I know I have been lied to. There are more sides to a person then a lie that they told.

[silktricks]

But morality also forms the basis for the rules of society. Over the time, we have evolved into believing that murder, robbery and child pornography are wrong. The people that commit these crimes do not believe they are immoral. Should we just admit we all have our differences and forget about prosecuting people for them?

 

I know all that might come across as not relevant to the OW thing, it's a simplistic way of saying that morals ARE important, they form the basis of society.

What we as a society call moral is what we as a society have agreed upon as moral. If our (read here Western) society agreed that having a second relationship (or third or whatever) is OK, then it would be considered moral.

 

Morals change along with society. In former times (not all that long ago) it was considered to be immoral for a woman to allow a man to see her ankle(s). An actor was considered to be immoral. Obviously those morals have changed over time.

 

At this time, in this place it is considered to be immoral for a person who is married to have a relationship outside of that union. It is considered that both the married person and the unmarried person are acting immorally.

 

That said, my personal opinion is that not the BS, the WS or the OW can automatically be considered immoral. It depends on ALL of their actions, not only the relationship. It's easy to say that love forgives all, and that if the affair is based on love, than it's not immoral, but that doesn't take into consideration the pain caused to innocent parties. Is causing anguish and pain immoral? Would it be moral to stick needles into someone, simply because one loves to do so?

 

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that all are in an untenable position. I personally, would like to see no person agree to be with a married person, nor any married person treat their marriage partner badly (and both BS and WS can be guilty of that - and usually are). Lying is (in my opinion) immoral. An affair includes a whole lot of lying. That doesn't mean that if a person lies, they are immoral, but I think it does mean that their actions at that moment are.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[pricillia]

Thanks everyone for your replys to this thread, There are so many good opinions here and truths.

 

Thanks I have learned here.

[Guest]

One question: Is it moral to lie?

 

Show us a person who never lies.

 

There are many more appropriate factors to consider regarding this topic than lying.

[frannie]

I think sometimes even OW get blindsided by what they consider moral. Perhaps it's only fair that I start out by saying that I am not a BS but I do consider infidelity immoral.

 

Okay, so onto my point, which might be a bit fuzzy but I am thinking as I type. As I say, I think many OWs know deep down that they are acting immorally, but it's very difficult for any individual to admit this to themselves, which is why on these types of boards there is a lot of defensive behavior. I suppose a basic rule of thumb would be - would you cheerfully chat about your MM to your mother, your boss, your minister, all the while admitting he was married? Or do you avoid it? I suppose it could be argued that you avoid it because of "society's" interpretation of what is moral, rather than your own. But if you would feel genuine shame at talking about your MM with everyone in your community whose opinion matters to you, then it's an indication that you DO feel it's outside of your moral code.

 

Incidentally, I've always found the assertion that "BS should be concerned only with her H, don't blame me, I am not responsible, I didn't make the vows" etc etc to be faintly dubious; we all have responsibilities to other human beings and we relate and are accountable to the community as a whole, not just ourselves. I'm not saying that the OW betrayal is equal in magnitude to that of the MM, but it is a betrayal nonetheless, of one human being to another. A victim of assault will feel anger not only towards his attacker but also to the passersby who stepped over him.

 

I think there's a lot of defensiveness on here because OW are constantly being attacked. We're always being ASKED to defend our position almost every time we post.

 

And yes, I do cheerfully tell people about my MM. I'm not ashamed of anything I'm doing, while at the same time I really don't like being in this situation, and I don't like what he's doing. But while other people may not like it, it IS a fact that it's the MM who is betraying his wife, disregarding his marriage vows, telling lies, commiting infidelity. I'm in no way denying my part in that, but let's just remember who is the married person once in a while.

 

The only reason I do feel somewhat uncertain about introducing MM to others is because I don't want them to think badly of him, and pity me for being in a stupid situation. Nothing to do with hiding from 'society' whoever they are. Most people have something in their cupboards they don't want the world to see: you get old enough and you realise that about life.

[frannie]

But morality also forms the basis for the rules of society. Over the time, we have evolved into believing that murder, robbery and child pornography are wrong. The people that commit these crimes do not believe they are immoral. Should we just admit we all have our differences and forget about prosecuting people for them?

 

I know all that might come across as not relevant to the OW thing, it's a simplistic way of saying that morals ARE important, they form the basis of society.

 

Well no, of course we shouldn't just forget things which are illegal because some people like to do them. But there are degrees here. Someone having an affair might cause emotional devastation, but the presence of infidelity isn't regarded as something likely to cause the breakdown of (our) society (obviously other cultures see things differently, and I won't go into the reasons for that).

 

It's apples and oranges (to our societies) to consider affairs on a par with robbery, although a lot of people certainly act and talk like they've had something stolen from them. Marriage is a contract of union, not a document of ownership.

[frannie]

What we as a society call moral is what we as a society have agreed upon as moral. If our (read here Western) society agreed that having a second relationship (or third or whatever) is OK, then it would be considered moral.

 

Morals change along with society. In former times (not all that long ago) it was considered to be immoral for a woman to allow a man to see her ankle(s). An actor was considered to be immoral. Obviously those morals have changed over time.

 

At this time, in this place it is considered to be immoral for a person who is married to have a relationship outside of that union. It is considered that both the married person and the unmarried person are acting immorally.

 

That said, my personal opinion is that not the BS, the WS or the OW can automatically be considered immoral. It depends on ALL of their actions, not only the relationship. It's easy to say that love forgives all, and that if the affair is based on love, than it's not immoral, but that doesn't take into consideration the pain caused to innocent parties. Is causing anguish and pain immoral? Would it be moral to stick needles into someone, simply because one loves to do so?

 

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that all are in an untenable position. I personally, would like to see no person agree to be with a married person, nor any married person treat their marriage partner badly (and both BS and WS can be guilty of that - and usually are). Lying is (in my opinion) immoral. An affair includes a whole lot of lying. That doesn't mean that if a person lies, they are immoral, but I think it does mean that their actions at that moment are.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

You make good points about morality being culturally-defined. It is also individual. There is no 'moral code' out there to which any of us has to subscribe. Unless I'm completely mistaken no one can point at someone else and say 'that person is acting immorally', only that that person is not acting according to a specific moral code which they themselves may or may not subscribe to. But I'm prepared to be corrected on that.

 

Anyone who's looked into philosophy just a small amount will realise that almost every adult life situation is fraught (as you point out) with moral choices... and if it comes down to examining every act as to its relative morality no one would do anything.

 

How 'moral' is it to spend hours a day sitting online with the sole purpose of telling other people you don't like their behaviour? Isn't it a waste of the Earth's resources to be burning energy on computers when we could all be off helping our neighbours, baking cakes or getting on with the work some of us are being paid for an not doing right now..?

 

And yes, I am making light of the subject

[Fly My Pretties]

You might be making light of the subject, but don't you think that this has generally been an intelligent and respectful debate?

 

I think everyone makes good points about infidelity being current vogue of what society deems as immoral. And I do agree that it is not a crime, I used the examples of crimes to illustrate that morals are important and to rebuke the idea that they should be a matter only for personal choice.

 

As an example, in affairs, there are three people involved; the cheating spouse, the betrayed spouse and the other person. The cheater and the other person have made their choice on their morals, but the BS has been left with no choice. While some married couples may make the decision that they will have an open marriage, infidelity and morals becomes irrelevant, because all parties have made their decision. But in a marriage that has never been agreed as "open", when infidelity occurs one party has been denied a choice. And that is where the question of immorality comes in; it is all very well for the MM and OW to believe they are not acting immorally, but they have no right to impose their views on the BS. The BS is being denied the right to make that decision herself.

 

Hmm, that sounds very slapdash, I hope you can see what I am trying to say.

 

I also wanted to talk about degrees of betrayal, as some have touched upon the idea of every situation being different. When I was at school (a long time ago!), we were asked to look at the morality of pre-meditated murder. It all seemed very cut and dried and then euthaniasia was brought into the picture. Is it always wrong to kill another? I'm sure there are instances where affairs are justified, I'm just not sure that there are very many where it can be justified that the BS has no right to be a party to the decisions other people have made on her behalf.

[frannie]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying there. And yes, I do agree that it's a terrible thing to cheat on your partner and basically inflict your choice onto them. No doubt about that at all, and I wouldn't justify what my MM is currently doing in his marriage, nor the fact that I'm the one doing it with him.

 

I think what people sometimes forget when posting on the OW board is that we're all aware of the moral questions, of the wrongness of being in an affair, of the likely outcomes, and of how people view infidelity. Very few people come here proclaiming what some accuse us of: claiming victimhood (although many were deceived by MM who said they were single), 'rightness' in their actions, justification, blamelessnes, entitlement. It may be assumed, and alluded, and bashed out in post after post, but that doesn't mean that that's how OW actually feel or think.

[Wyvie]

Why are we wired like that? Why can't we just back off when we find out that the person who has been flirting with you already has a partner?

 

Is it just because we love the attention and presumably aren't getting it elsewhere? Is it because it is taboo? Is it because we've all been raised on soap operas and drama, and as such, unwittingly crave it for ourselves?

 

Things would be so much easier if "no" wasn't so hard to say.

 

Wyvie