my question

[foxtrot127]

It is all fine and good if God wished to create a world of free will beings rather than automatas. Christianity tells me that god created the world full of creatures and let it go wrong because he saw it was worth the risk, because in the end he will have a world of creatures that loves him out of its own choice, save the rebels that he had to destroy, that he himself made.

 

God is omniscient and could see through the future the burning furnace(hell), and the joyful creatures at two ends choosing to create the world, despite the burning furnace, for the joyful creatures at the cost of burning souls. If there is god, if he has given me freewill to think, he is doomed by his own weapon. It is like a nightmarish fairy tale in which fathers reproduce children to sacrifice when came to puberty. They do not sacrifice all the children, only those chosen many, and to voice against their bestiality is blasphemy-after all they do not slaughter themselves given a big share to Luciferens.

 

Lets not believe in a superstitiously maniac religion just because it can give us peace and pride. Let there be logic even in the worst crime.

 

I am 27 turning 28 tommorrow. I am reading the rest of THE BOOK if only some one answered as to why god had to create the world, being omniscient, when he could see through time the burning furnace.

[Love Hurts]

foxtrot127,

 

Your questioning free will of man on earth..

 

If you were God and wanted man of his own free will to love and follow you.

Would you make puppets?

 

If you made puppets of men… what true glory and honor have you obtained?

 

Isnt that self praise accomplished?

 

God is the opposite of that.

 

Free Choice is ours to hear and believe, to accept through faith and follow.

 

We reap what we sow; consider in our denial of Christ and clinging to Satan;by free Choice.

We shall reap the god … God; of our choice… in the end of this lifes walk.

 

Our free choice…freedom to choose the god… God of our hearts desire.

If we choose Satan now, we should expect to meet him personally later.

 

Satan or Jesus.. the choice is yours.

[bluetuesday]

it is god's desire that no soul chooses to rebel, therefore no souls are created by a god who knows they will go to hell. god's highest vision is that all souls return home to god's kingdom.

 

god has the ability to know everything. but god doesn't know which souls will rebel because if he did, he'd have to be a pretty cruel bugger to create souls just to keep the hell fires burning, wouldn't he?

 

no, god is wise and knows that some people will always abuse their choices, the same as we all know people who abuse their bodies and their opportunities and their minds. that doesn't mean souls can't change or are predestined to fail. it means that allowing them to fail is the only way god can be consistent in his promise that we do genuinely have free will to do with our time what we choose.

 

we think that god must know everything or that god cannot be perfect, because the idea of perfection we have is incorrect. perfect doesn't mean unchanging. a graven image is unchanging, and it is far from perfect. god is all compassion and love and wisdom and freedom. but god transcends - that is what creation is, the act of god becoming more.

 

i do not believe in a physical place called hell - it is a product of a fear-based religion created by men. however i do believe that souls can come to believe they are separated from god and can thereby sink very far from god's original vision for their lives into a self-created 'hell' or low state of consciousness where they believe god doesn't exist. to all intents and purposes that is hell, and you don't need to die to experience it.

 

it is a necessity of creation that we have choices. the very act of creation implies a choice in what is created. so choice - or free will - is a law of the universe. god allows souls to choose whom they will serve. no one is forced.

 

however, souls who consistently deny god or purposely rebel against god's design will finally reach a point where they must choose to willingly turn their lives around or be erased. this is not hell, it is a merciful end for souls who, even when facing anihilation, refuse to acknowledge god. the bible calls this process the second death, i believe.

 

so no one can rebel for ever but no one burns for ever either. people or doctrines which claim that a loving god would allow his children to burn forever have fatally misunderstood the nature of god's compassion and forgiveness.

 

happy birthday for tomorrow.

[Love Hurts]

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second =death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

 

The Judgment at the Great White Throne

 

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

12 And I saw the =dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the =dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

13 And the sea gave up the =dead which were in it; and =death and hell delivered up the =dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

14 And =death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second =death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

IF THE LIVING WALK AMONGST THE DEAD.......the living are the souls that are saved........they are filled with the LIVING WORD OF GOD.

 

The dead.....are not sons of God. They do not know Him.

There is a difference in knowing of God, and knowing God.

 

SO YOU HAVE THE LIVING DEAD.......DEAD SPIRITUALLY..= THE LIVING DEAD.

 

OK .....THE DEATH OF.... THE LIVING DEAD; WHAT IS THAT? ....

Those unsaved....not sons of God...... (Living dead) die..

 

So as the body dies........the soul is gone onward to Hades ....... which is a holding jail for the unsaved...........renamed as Gahanna the final penitentiary.

 

Death of a personal soul is the realization that they are now going to LIVE FOR ALL ETERNITY ......SEPARATED FROM GOD....NEVER HAVING A CHANCE TO REPENT.....THAT IS DEATH IN ITSELF TO THE SOUL...A soul.THAT WILL NEVER DIE...

 

 

NEXT; HELL IS DEATH......IT REPRESENTS......A PLACE FOR THE DEAD SPIRITUALLY...... DEAD SOULS....IN A DEAD PLACE.

THAT PLACE IS DEAD.....IT IS FOR THE DEAD...

 

 

Now just from this point on......if we read our scripture and understand the meanings of dead as they apply to the verses....

....WE WILL GAIN A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF DEAD... AND DEATH.

 

If we understand absent from the body present with the Lord or in Hell... the scripture is understandable......think like that for a moment here and watch...

 

 

For example: 13 And the sea gave up the =dead which were in it

DEAD BODIES IN THE SEA

 

; and =death and hell DEAD SPIRITUALLY AND HELL THE FALLEN ANGELS OR DEMONS THAT DWELL THERE IN.....

delivered up the =dead which were in them: DELIVEVERED UP THE DEAD ALL SPIRITUALLY DEAD COME UP OUT OF........(second resurrection)

 

and they were judged every man according to their works..

 

 

SOULS TAKEN FROM (resurrected) HELL ......IS A PARTIAL RELIEF..... FOR THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN IN TORMENT....THIS IS THE FIRST BREAK OF RELIEF THEY HAVE HAD SINCE THEIR BODY HAD DIED....

 

 

THEY ARE JUDGED..... AND SENTENCED FOR ALL ETERNITY.... TO

GAHANNA ....THE FINAL PENITENTIARY...

 

 

14 And =death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

Named GAHANNA......for THE FINAL PENN.

This is the second =death.

 

THE FIRST DEATH WAS TO HADES...

TAKEN UP OUT OF HADES OR HELL TO BE JUDGED...

AND THEN BACK TO DEATH......FOR ALL ETERNITY.

 

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

HIS JUDGMENTS ARE FAIR AND RIGHTEOUS.

 

Who are the Dead in the Sea?

13 And the sea gave up the =dead which were in it…

 

These are the dead of generations of people that dwelt upon the earth during the time of Satans Fall From Heaven....

 

(There were kings of nations upon the earth at that time and they worshipped Satan).

 

They fall between the cracks of Genesis 1: vs1 and 2...

They too will be judged.

 

For a better of understanding of this are you familiar with the Gap Theory?

_______________

 

 

Rev: 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Love Hurts]

JUDGMENT; for Believers is in Process Immediately After The Rapture...

It is an INVESTIGATION of The Brides Faithfulness?

 

II COR. 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

II Peter 1 -11 Escape corruption and honor the Lord.

 

I JOHN 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

 

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

HE LOVES US SO MUCH.... HE DIED FOR US...JEALOUS OVER YOU.

I PETER 1:16 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

WE ARE BETROTHED TO CHRIST FROM THE MOMENT OF

SALVATION....

There will be a premarital exam after we are called Home.

 

II Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him...{IMPUTED THROUGH SALVATION.

 

Revelation19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the ....righteousness of saints.

{THIS IS WORKS AFTER COMMITMENT

 

*In original Greek in this 8th verse of Rev.19 is righteousness:

 

Is righteousnesses... PLURAL- to include WORKS after SALVATION.

 

IICOR. 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. WORKS GOOD OR BAD.

 

I COR: 315 15 If any man's *Work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. LOSS OF REWARDS...

*SAVED BY THE SKIN OF ONES TEETH…Praise Jesus!

 

Here, one may have lived short of the Glory of God...and have not much to offer unto the Lord...Yet...is purified through fire and Saved.

THE WEDDING GARMENTS FABRIC AND APPEARANCE WILL BE COMPOSED OF YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES.. ON EARTH...WORKS AFTER SALVATION...

 

.. Those not in need of purification by fire... have many good works unto the Lord and were faithful to the groom during their betrothal to Him.

THE BRIDE shall be adorned in fine linen clean and white...

 

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

We can see the first step after we are called home is a premarital investigation.

Next the Bride is given a white clean Linen Garment...to display righteousness.

 

This is the first step;also in this Judgment seat…. she is rewarded.

There are rewards for the Bride to receive.

Or she may be stripped of Her rewards.

___________________

 

Note that the Bema Seat Judgment is not the same as the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

Believers (the Saved), referred to as the Bride of Christ or the Church…Do not stand in the Judgment of Great White Throne.

[foxtrot127]

foxtrot127,

If you were God and wanted man of his own free will to love and follow you.

Would you make puppets?.

 

 

How do we know we are not already puppets? If we were we certainly wouldn't know it, would we? Think about it. It could be illusion, could it not?

Our minds can take us places we may not want to go yet, but why?

[foxtrot127]

god has the ability to know everything. but god doesn't know which souls will rebel because if he did, he'd have to be a pretty cruel bugger to create souls just to keep the hell fires burning, wouldn't he?

 

it is a necessity of creation that we have choices.

 

What is the difference in God having the ability to know everything and actually knowing everything including what choices we will make. Furthermore, if God does know, how is it a free choice? It is quite the conundrum.

 

I think it is a necessity of creation to search for meaning, importance, and someone at the controls, which is why we humanize the concept of God like he is a person who had the same choices we think we have. God's "choices" when he set out to create something from NOTHING were infinite, but what God created is, like you said, far from perfect through our human eyes. It sometimes does not make logical sense to me, which is why I have always struggled with the question of "This is the best an all-powerful God did or could have done?" In the end, it does take a major leap of faith, and personal experiences that the individual feels are validation of that leap. Hopefully, the leap makes a positive difference in our world, which is sometimes up for debate.

I do not believe in a physical hell either. Nor in eternal suffering. The sheer thought of it has brought me to tears on many occasions. Reality is suffering. The bondage of measured time and language are suffering. Which is why I lean towards thinking there is something else beyond this. But how could I know till I am beyond?

[foxtrot127]

foxtrot127,

 

If you were God and wanted man of his own free will to love and follow you.

Would you make puppets?

 

quote]

 

How do we know we are not puppets? If we were, we certainly would not know it, would we? But for me to answer your question, I would have to assume that God wants man of his own "free will" to love and follow him. That is an assumption I am not prepared to make. My next post will explain furthur.

[foxtrot127]

In regards to an earlier post, that "God has the ability to know everything, but does not know who will rebel"

 

What is the difference in having the ability to know everything and actually knowing it? If god knows everything then he knows what we will do before he even created all of it. So its quite the conundrum.

 

I do not believe in hell either, blue tuesday. The thought of that has led me to break down at times. Why do we put this in the world?

 

Finally, I think it is necessity for most of "creation" to seek meaning, importance, and order when it is does not really make sense. The whole concept doesn't stand up to logic for me most of the time. It is just something to make you and me feel special. I grew up in church, I understand. Many of those people could not go on without the notions they grew up with. Therefore, it is wrong to even question things, my grandma always says, "don't let satan put those thoughts and doubts in your head." But I can't just tell satan to flee, and forget about them. In the end it requires a leap at best, and personal experiences which you feel validate that leap.

[bluetuesday]

In regards to an earlier post, that "God has the ability to know everything, but does not know who will rebel"

 

What is the difference in having the ability to know everything and actually knowing it? If god knows everything then he knows what we will do before he even created all of it. So its quite the conundrum.

 

let's take a step back and look at the problem of whether god knows what we'll do before we do it, from a different angle.

 

think of god as our spiritual parent, and us as his children. we share some characterists with god (we are created in his image and likeness) just as we share characteristics with our birth parents. the qualities that we share with god are these: self-awareness, imagination and free will. these are the qualities which enabled god to know who he was, to envision the universe before it was created, and to make choices during the creation of this universe, to make it a stable platform for life.

 

being a child of god means that spiritually we are similar to god. but even though parents know their children pretty well, those children are independent people. they can make choices the parents don't approve of or which surprise their parents. it is exactly the same with god. he knows a great deal about us, but has given us the qualities of self-awareness, imagination and free will (although in smaller quantities than he has) in order that we can make choices he doesn't approve of, or which surprise him.

 

now you make think that god cannot be surprised or grow or learn anything he doesn't already know. but that is because you probably have a view of god that is not aligned with the reality of god. this is no surprise because most people on earth, including me, grew up with other people's ideas of what god is like ingrained into them.

 

to get to the heart of the facet of god which explains your question, we need to look at why the universe was created in the first place, and by looking at the very fact the universe exists, we can have a pretty good guess why it's here.

 

god created the universe because he wanted to. and the fact he wanted something which wasn't yet in existence, shows that god can have desires and god can want to expand and to create and to grow. it's this desire to expand, to create, to grow that explains your question. if god has the desire to expand and to grow and to create, god cannot yet be all the god he could possibly ever be.

 

so just like us, god has the ability to expand through creation, to self-transcend, and to grow. he has the ability to make choices, which tells us that he hasn't already made all the choices he will ever make, or the ability to choose would be denied him and he would no longer have free will. so you see, it is illogical for people to say god never changes and at the same time to say that he once had free will to create the universe, but now he doesn't have free will to not know what you will be doing a week on tuesday.

 

in order to fully understand the nature of god, you have to be god, so i'm not claiming to know all the answers since i am clearly not god. but i do know that being god means being able to do anything - which in turn means having the free will NOT to do anything. if god knew everything before we did it and couldn't turn this ability off, he wouldn't have free will. and therefore if he didn't have free will, he wouldn't have been free to create the universe or not, he wouldn't have been free to create us, or not.

 

we all have the ability to do things we don't do and god is the same as us in this respect. he could have created our solar system as 27 flat planets spinning like frisbees around a donut-shaped sun, but he chose not to. i could go out and physically strangle someone but i choose not to.

 

I do not believe in hell either, blue tuesday. The thought of that has led me to break down at times. Why do we put this in the world?

 

take a guess why. someone wants you to be scared of going to hell and to hold a threat of hell over you to try to force you to choose, in other words take away your free will not to choose, whichever religion promotes is. you think that person is god?

 

Finally, I think it is necessity for most of "creation" to seek meaning, importance, and order when it is does not really make sense. The whole concept doesn't stand up to logic for me most of the time. It is just something to make you and me feel special. I grew up in church, I understand. Many of those people could not go on without the notions they grew up with. Therefore, it is wrong to even question things, my grandma always says, "don't let satan put those thoughts and doubts in your head." But I can't just tell satan to flee, and forget about them. In the end it requires a leap at best, and personal experiences which you feel validate that leap.

 

yes, it is part of being human to seek meaning and to look for logic. a good rule of thumb is this. question everything. it was questioning the church that opened up many answers about god for me. i was not satisifed to be told 'it's a mystery' by my priest, and i was not comfortable with being told not to question everything. i also had doubts that the church i had been brought up in was right about everything and so i dared to question it. it wasn't satan pushing me to doubt, and it's not satan pushing you to doubt. satan would have been quite happy, i am sure, for me and you to stay scared of hell and to be too afraid to question it. fear is his currency and he resides wherever fear is. think about that.

 

if there is one piece of advice i would give you, it is this. god wants you to question the world and to use your brain to learn and to grow. that's part of why you exist. to question doesn't mean you will never reach a point where you have answers. i promise you, if you search faithfully for answers, you will get them. and when you learn a truth, you will know it with as much certainty as you know your own name. you are a child of god, he will never, ever abandon you.

[Love Hurts]

 

Satan rebelled, one third of the Angelic beings in heaven rebelled.. they were not puppets.

We can choose just they did… I can take my life by suicide… or live it..

I have freedom over my body, my mind, and my choice of which God I will serve.

And its obvious the world is not worshipping Jesus

Free choice has invented many other gods before Him.

 

Is there such a s thing as predestination… Yes…

Before we were born God knew what we would do.

He has the foreknowledge of …

God knows the beginning from the end.

 

Ephesians 1: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the

foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame

before him in love:

 

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus

Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

ELECT OR PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO FOREKNOWLEDGE …

NOT PREDIGEST… NOT BIGOTED…NOT BIAS… SAYING YOU ARE MADE FOR HELL ...

 

YOU ARE MADE FOR HEAVEN…

DON’T EVER THINK GOD MADE ONE OF US FOR THE PLEASURE

OF SENDING US TO HELL...HE FOREKNEW WHAT CHOICE… WE... WOULD MAKE.

 

AS CHRIST LOOKED AHEAD... AND FOREKNEW... WHAT WE WOULD DO…

HE CAME TO SAVE US…

 

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,

even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and

hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was

my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth

 

Hebrews 10:23

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;

(for he is faithful that promised

[Love Hurts]

If there is god, if he has given me freewill to think, he is doomed by his own weapon.

 

Foxtrot,

 

 

There is no greater proof of freewill, than in your own words…if you were a puppet made to honor Christ… you would be honoring Him…. instead of pondering Him.

 

You are confused which is living proof… you have free will to decide.

Isn’t that what you are doing… trying to decide?

 

God is not doomed by His own weapon; man condemns himself to be banished from God for all eternity in result of our own personal choice not to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

 

Consider God gave all for us, that we who believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life…John 3:16

 

The most important thing a pondering mind may weigh in… is sin.

WHO IS WITHOUT SIN - Can we see we are sinners?

 

John 8:7

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her

 

Romans 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 

Can we see Jesus is Holy and Righteous and is without sin?

II Cor. 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

 

 

The Ten Commandments teach us what sin is.

 

God tells us we are sinners.

 

As sinners we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

We must be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

 

 

Romans 4: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

DON’T focus on self to righthteous JESUS IS RIGHTEOUS.

 

IT’S NOT BY Y-OUR WORKS THAT JUSTIFY THE UNGLODLY

OUR FAITH IN GOD IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND RIGHTEOUSNESS IS JESUS.

 

*With Jesus in us, the Holy Spirit in us…..We ARE made righteous unto Him.

Through Salvation…

Salvation is an ascent to Jesus from the heart.

Not the mind.

Jesus knows a mans heart. Recall the two thieves on the cross.

One had a heart for God… the other did not.

 

1:2 Deuteronomy 11:13

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

 

When you have reached that place in your heart… you are ready to receive:

 

CONSIDER THESE STEPS:

1) A confession or agreement with God that we are a *sinner.

Romans 3:23

 

2) *A request asking God to forgive us our sins.

Ephesians 2:4

 

3) *An acceptance of Jesus as our Savior and asking Him to be the Lord of our life.

 

Acts 16:31

4) *An acknowledgement that God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9

 

5) *A request for help to live as Jesus wants us to live.

Romans 7:18

 

6) A close *thanking God for the gift of His Wonderful Son and His merciful gift of salvation.

Romans 6:17

 

Salvation is completely dependent upon faith in Christ and not at all dependent upon belonging to a man-made organization.

 

A Model Sinner's Prayer

"Dear God in heaven, I come before you in the name of Jesus. I confess that I am a sinner and ask you to forgive me and cleanse me from my sins. I receive Jesus as my Savior and ask Him to come into my heart. I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and that You raised Him from the dead. I ask you to please help me to live as you want me to live. I thank you for the gift of your wonderful Son Jesus and Your merciful free gift of salvation. In Jesus' wonderful name. Amen."

 

And the thief on the cross said nine words to salvation…

Luke 23:42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

 

{BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT......... Because Jesus knows a mans heart.

 

God Bless