it's been bothering me for months now

[midori]

... so tell me what you make of this.

 

Some of you may know a bit about my relationship with my ex boyfriend, so I'll keep the background details to a minimum. In short, we had a long-term, long-distance relationship which was frequently in a state of uncertainty, due to his doubts about what he wanted, and his ability to make a lasting commitment (ie marriage) to me. On the one hand he said I was everything he wanted in a partner. We were very passionate with each other, affectionate, supportive (in our different ways), and there was a general feeling of sympathy between us. We rarely fought. Looking back I see now that was somewhat because I frequently held my tongue, instinctively knowing that certain things would upset him, and he had a lot on his plate already. Moreover I wanted to give him "space" while he was trying to make up his mind about what he wanted with me. Not the right thing to do, for myself or the relationship, but there's one lesson I've learned.

 

Anyway, his doubts won out in the end. He couldn't give any concrete reasons for breaking up with me (more than a year & a half ago). He broke up with me abruptly, having only a couple of months before decided that he did want to marry me, have a family, etc. He was a mess after the break-up, as was I. He was not at all supportive of me, couldn't/wouldn't communicate about what was going on, what his reasons were. He finally cobbled together some bull**** reasons that even he later admitted were stupid (e.g. I don't like modern art as much as he does, I have better taste in music than he does but refuse to get in to pointless debates with him about it. Really lame stuff). He really left me hanging.

 

About nine months after the break-up we met up for two days that were intense, loving, sad -- and for me very frustrating. Within half an hour of seeing me he was crying on the street because he still loved me. But refused to even discuss the possibility of getting back together. Sex still incredible, blah blah blah. But he was unyielding about not getting back together. Simply refused to discuss it. No reasons.

 

That was just before xmas last year. I then went to my parents', he went to his (in the UK). He avoided communicating with me even by email; no phone calls were exchanged. I was very upfront with him about what I thought: I still loved him, he still loved me, what the hell was he doing? No reply for a couple of weeks. A few days into the new year he emailed me to tell me that he "just didn't feel strongly enough for me." A bit of backing and forthing led us to conclude that we both wanted to keep in touch, on a reduced basis. Keep it light and forget what was between us because it was a thing of the past. With the new understanding that he "didn't feel strongly for me," there was nothing left for me to say on that front. I told him I accepted it, and wished him luck.

 

Within 2 hours of that exchange he emailed me again to tell me that while he was in London for xmas he'd met someone, and that he was serious about her. She lives in SW Asia (was home for the holidays), he's in the Middle East. So their relationship was not very substantial when he told me about it. As I believe he'd intended, I grew very angry with him, all the resentment that had been building up for years was finally unleashed in a cold, condemning assessment of his motives and character. I was not kind, but I was not unreasonable. Not surprisingly he couldn't take it. He accused me of being bitter. Well who wouldn't be bitter?

 

But I've never been good at staying angry, and a few months later I sent him a card telling him that bygones were bygones and I wasn't going to hold a grudge. My motive in doing so was to try to salvage at least a faint friendship with him -- or the possibility of one at some point in the undetermined future. He was a huge part of my life for more than 3 years, I didn't want to lose all access to shared memories, etc. Didn't hear from him for a couple of months and then finally got a reply from him saying, "that's good to know, thanks." A couple of weeks later I sent him an email: a quick hello telling him I was moving & would send him my new address. He told me not to bother, that he didn't see any point in remaining friends, as we don't have many mutual friends, live in different parts of the world, etc. "We'd be no use to each other as friends," he said. Ouch.

 

So that's what I don't get. I have never, ever done anything to this man (except to be brutually honest with him in January, and he'd asked for it; I showed the emails I'd sent to him to people who knew us both and they all thought those were very fair things for me to say to him, given the circumstances). We shared so much in the time that we were together. It's bizarre to think that I have to basically gloss over that time because, for example, the person I shared a trip to Rome with won't talk to me -- so who do I reminisce with, who do I ask about the restaurant we went to twice because we loved it so much, and I'd like to tell my friend who's going to Rome next month?

 

Exes should be faint presences, I know that. I wasn't asking him to be my best buddy. I don't want to be his best buddy. I wasn't expecting that he'd want to attend my wedding (to someone else, a yet-to-be-met someone else); I wouldn't invite him even if he did want to go. I really have no interest in his new relationship, don't care to hear the details, or to tell him about the guy I'm currently dating. Oh, a further thing to note: his relationship with his new girlfriend has progressed to the point where, I understand from mutual friends, he's planning to move to live with her. While I admit that hurts to hear (of course it does, a little bit), I don't seek to change it. He's on a very different path from me. I'm happy where I am.

 

I don't want to be with him. I see all the ways that he was wrong for me. But why on earth can't we be, at least, distant friends, the kind who send postcards or emails every couple of months? When telling me that he didn't wish to be friends he remarked that he's not really "proper" friends with any of his exes, except one who has many friends in common with him. But that is patently untrue. He keeps in touch with former lovers whom he hasn't seen in years. He's scrupulous about maintaining a vast array of superficial friendships. After all we shared, I'm just dumbfounded that I don't even rate being that.

 

I'm not a vengeful ex-girlfriend. I'm not delusional, clingy or evil. For god's sake I live on the other side of the planet, there is no possible harm that can come from me to him. So why has someone who once loved me, who at one point wanted to MARRY me, just turned his back on me entirely? And this from a person who usually bends over backwards to keep in touch with people he's met only once or twice, and who goes out of his way to not insult or hurt someone's feelings ...

 

Tony? Oliver? Anyone else? (I ask for a guy's perspective but would love to hear from girls too).

 

Thanks, and sorry it's so long-winded.

 

-midori

[Tony T]

As I read your post, my computer's bullshxt meter when wild. I think that’s because it sensed you are trying to fool yourself about your own feelings.

 

Things like this don't bother somebody "for months" without good reason.

 

I don't buy that you want to hold onto a faint, no-quality relationship just so you can reminisce about shared adventures when you were together. I think you still have feelings for this guy...maybe you don't even realize.

 

You are a very sharp cookie, far smarter than I will ever be. So why are you trying to fool yourself? Nobody would write this long a detailed post if there wasn't more there than just the desire to have a crappy guy in the periphery of your life to call once in a while and talk about Rome....don't even give me that.

 

You are still in love with, or at least have some degree of feelings for, this guy and don't fool yourself. You have got to let go. Now, again, you being the smarter of the two of us, on the face of it this guy has treated you like crap for a good while. He has rejected you. He has flat told you he doesn't want to be your friend. Did you hear all that? Why would you want somebody in your life who, for whatever reason, wants you out of his???

 

I know you a lot better and the rational you would have walked away from this in half a heartbeat...and certainly wouldn't be obsessing over a friendship that doesn't exist. Friends and potential friends don't say and do the things this guy had said and done to you.

 

Now, there's a chance he feels guilty and seeing or talking to you is a reminder of what a scumbag he is. There's a chance he still has feelings for you and wants to avoid you to get over those feelings. There is a chance he's scared to death of intimate relationships and when his relationship with you got to the point of engagement, he became terrified. There is a good reason some people participate in long distance relationships, the least of which not being fear of intimacy. We will just never know what's going on in his head and it doesn't really matter!

 

He seems to be OK with intermittent encounters with people he cares about...but on a continuing basis...that may be scary for him.

 

Now, part of the reason you're uppity right now may be that he's moving in with some other chick. Well, if you honored his wishes and cut it off with him, you wouldn't even know about this. It may even be a lie and he told you this to move you on your way. But if it's true, it's perfectly normal for you to feel a little weird right now but this feeling will pass...if you are willing to let it.

 

You have a boyfriend now. How do you think he would feel if he knew you were bursting at the seams to keep contact with a past honey...and how lame do you think it would sound to him if you told him your reasons.

 

Lovers who break up do not keep in contact under normal circumstances. Maybe on your part you felt a close friendship with this guy...but that feeling was apparently not mutual. We often project our feelings on other people but the truth, as I have found it to be, is that even the person we consider to be our best friend may not feel strong friendship for us. It's a fact. Every person has an agenda...a reason for being with another person. Unfortunately, we cannot read minds...BUT we can interpret actions pretty quickly.

 

I know you're hurting somewhere deep down in some way...and I'm sorry you may not be in touch with that. But this has affected you in abnormal ways. I think you're smart enough, once you get in touch will all these feelings, to process them properly and move on.

 

There is no good purpose to be served by mindscrewing yourself to death trying to analyze why your ex is doing this or that. Let him handle his own life. You are not a part of it anymore and you need to butt out of it. Take care of yourself.

 

You are a brilliant lady with a bright future. You don't need to wallow in the bullshxt of a era long past. If you feel you may need some counseling, get it. But this is truly a matter of realizing a relationship of any kind with a guy who is not nice to you and who has told you to flake off is NOT productive, NOT constructive and serves no useful purpose in your life. Let him go!!!

 

The only way you will be able to enjoy your current relationship and have that move on its proper course...or find the RIGHT person for yourself...is to let go of this. Yes, rejection hurts, but it feels so great to finally learn that someone is a butthole so you can move on.

 

I think the key here is your reference to memories. It's really hard to let go of those shared experiences. At the same time, if you learn to live in the moment and relish each moment for the time it's lived, you will be better off. Read some Buddhist or Zen literature. Learn the concept of "The Eternal Now" which emphasizes that the only moment in life that is real, that exists, is this very second. The past is GONE and will never return...and the future has not yet arrived. Learn to live in the present and you will be happy always. There are no worries in the present second and no penalties to be had.

 

You are obviously sensitive and it's very difficult for you to let nice memories go...you don't really have to. But do you obsess when you finish a delicious gourmet meal and feel a sense of loss because your plate is empty? Do you get depressed because you just saw a wonderful movie...it's over...the lights are on and you must leave the theatre?

 

Everything in life has a beginning and an ending. Even our solar system will destruct in approximately 3 billion years when the sun burns out, but I suspect we will destroy our own planet much sooner. Some relationships last a very short time...others much longer. But until you trust the universe to follow its perfect order for you, you will make yourself utterly miserable.

 

I think it's a good thing to be sensitive and to think back a lot. You obviously spend a lot of time thinking and a lot of that looks backward. But change the way you think and see things so you treasure your memories and not force them to remain in the present by trying to keep their cast of characters in your life for future cameo appearances.

 

You are the best and I hate to see you this way. I hope you will excuse my bluntness here. I do have great admiration for you. Get better soon!

[Ally Boo]

That was really nice Tony. Midori, I don't think that anyone could have responded better, and I agree with Tony.

[midori]

Thanks Tony & Allyboo for your supportive words. I agree with just about everything you've said, Tony. I reached the conclusion ages ago that this ex is just not worth it. But that rational conclusion has yet to take firm root in my heart. I'll struggle with overwhelming confusion and sadness and hurt, reach some new understanding and be fine for a while. But then a week or two later I'll wake up in the middle of the night and have a "conversation" with the phantom ex.

 

Clearly it's still an emotionally charged thing for me. That's what I've been trying to undo, I want to defuse that emotion. I invested so much of myself into that relationship, gave more than I should have probably. Perhaps I'm determined to get something back from that investment, or looking to save something from the wreckage so that I can justify all that I put into it. But I don't think that answers it completely for me, I don't think that's what's got me dwelling on something I'd like so much to put behind me.

 

Yup, rejection sucks. I know it does, and I know we all have to deal with it. I think that maybe what's got me stuck is the fact that I gave more of myself to this guy than I have to anyone, ever. So being rejected -- wholly -- by him really hurts. Makes me wonder if there's something wrong with me; but I have no idea what it might be because I generally think I'm an all-around good person (with her share of flaws to be sure, but not to the point where someone who's known me as well as he did would want to reject me, as he has ...) And when you factor in the amount of time I really did think he loved me, and how long I compromised and sacrificed because I believed that in the end things would work out, it does suggest that I just don't have a good grasp on reality, on whether or not someone really loves me, or whether or not other people perceive me as worthwhile and valuable.

 

Now, you might say, it's silly to assume that there's something wrong with me because he chose to reject me. The obvious answer is that there's something wrong with him, that I picked the wrong guy to devote myself to. You might say that it doesn't matter what is wrong with him, it's enough to know that he's unwilling/incapable of being a friend or any kind of good presence in my life. But for some reason it isn't.

 

I don't know. The wise thing to do would be to construct the explanation that makes the most sense to me, and adopt it wholesale -- since I'll never know the truth about what was really going on with him, what his reasons were, etc. I've been trying to do that for a while, but I haven't quite found the construct that sounds right. That's why I was asking for others' perspectives, thought someone might have some insight as to why someone would behave the way my ex has to me. I'd like to box it up and file it under "do not open for a good long time, if ever" somewhere in the recesses of my mind.

 

anyway, to reassure you, I am talking to a therapist now and then about this. And I'm not betraying anyone with these thoughts; I do not have a boyfriend. I'm currently dating (as in: going out for dinner once a week, that's it) a nice guy, but it's very casual right now because we're both so busy. And, I confess, I'm not head-over-heels about him, but it's early days yet. I think if I did meet someone who really captured my interest this ex thing would cease to be an issue. But it's not easy to meet men that I really click with, so I've got to deal with it as best I can in the meantime.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and thought-provoking response Tony. It helps.

 

-midori

[Tony T]

There's nothing at all wrong with you and you ARE an all around good person. You are just stuck in the past right now.

 

Hey, lady, we've ALL been there. Most everybody gives their ALL when they love somebody but there are never any guarantees that those investments are going to pay off. Benjamin Franklin wrote more than 225 years ago, "Blessed is he who expects nothing for he will never be disappointed."

 

The ONLY strategy you can adopt in your life, as I have told you, is to live each day in the moment. I would also caution you, love cannot be forced or screwed with in any way. Remember the following:

 

IF SOMEBODY IS GOING TO LOVE YOU, THEY ARE GOING TO LOVE YOU NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY OR HOW LITTLE YOU TRY; NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DO FOR THEM OR HOW LITTLE YOU DO FOR THEM. AND IF SOMEBODY IS NOT GOING TO LOVE YOU, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LOVE YOU NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY OR HOW LITTLE YOU TRY OR HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE YOU DO FOR THEM.

 

Furthermore:

 

Love is pretty prissy somethings. Love doesn't like it when it's forced or when people work too hard for it. If you're in a relationship and you have to bust your ass to keep it going, you're in big trouble.

 

I urge you to change your philosophy about love and how it works. Love, mutual love, is undefinable but in my opinion it takes on a life of its own based on many intangibles between two people who are totally themselves.

 

If you go around considering love as a thing to be invested in, forget it. Just forget about ever loving or being loved. Loving somebody and conducting oneself for the purpose of ensuring its continuation is corrupt on the face. You love another person with no strings attached...for the sake of loving...for the sake of that time. And you DO NOT hold on to it or try to hold on to it. When you do that, love gets pissed as hell.

 

When you learn to flow with the world, to love freely and accept love freely as you will and go with it, true love comes flying into your doorway.

 

What you had with your ex, in my opinion, was not love at all but a creation of your imagination based on the longing for real and total love which has not made it to your doorway yet because you desire too much to control its course.

 

Fly freely in life, let things happen the way they will....love freely with no strings attached and you will have the greatest love affair you could ever dream of....a love affair that is created by accepting life in all its reality and allowing love to come your way when it finds you worthy and it finds you ready.

[midori]

but life is not just about love. Relationships are not just about love; they are (or are supposed to be) undertaken because love is there. A relationship is the intersection between life and love. It is the real world manifestation of love, and moving an abstract, spiritual thing into the temporal world of obligations and complications, inevitably transforms it. I agree that love should not require strings, compromises or manipulations. Life, however, does -- though preferably little or no manipulations. Deception isn't my thing.

 

I invested in a relationship. Yes, a relationship that I engaged in and maintained because I thought there was love between me and my ex. And maybe I was wrong about that -- that's something I'm trying to figure out. Doing a long-distance thing was very hard and added complications to the relationship -- but not to the love that was (I still believe, foolish me) between us. The compromises and sacrifices I made were not so that he would love me -- that he already did (or so I thought). If I hadn't believed that he loved me I wouldn't have bothered. Maybe I was deluded for believing that he loved me. I guess, ultimately, that's what I'm wondering.

[Tony T]

I'm glad you have a good handle on life...and I think you have a pretty good handle on love as well.

 

My very point is that it doesn't matter whether somebody loved you back or not. The ONLY love you will EVER feel in this world until the day you die is the love you have inside for others.

 

There will never be any way whatsoever that will enable other people to download their love onto your hard drive.

 

So as long as you loved, that's great and that's all there is. Stop wondering what his feelings were. At this point that information is so irrelevant. And if he should tell you exactly what he felt, would you believe him...was he even capable of knowing.

 

Mutual love is basically two people making their ownselves feel great inside because of the way they feel about another person. If somebody tells you they love you, all that is saying is that you make them feel real good when they think of you or when you are around. Not in all your days on this planet will you ever, no matter how much you think or analyze, know exactly how or what they are feeling. Love is felt differently and seen differently by every person.

 

We miss a person not because we miss the love they had for us...because we NEVER felt their love for us. We miss them because we selfishly miss feeling the love we had for them and want them around in some form to keep that feeling alive inside of US!

 

Make your judgements of another's feelings for you, if you absolutely must, by their behavior...for behavior and appearance are the only basis we have for loving others. Behavior and appearance are the only two things that make each individual different. We love people for the way they make us feel when we are around them. How could you possibly love this guy now for the way he has treated you?

 

And when the day is over, the love we feel for anything is the love we manufacture inside our hearts for that is the only love we feel and the only love that brightens out day...we did it for ourselves. (Doesn't sound very romantic, I know...sorry)

 

The biggest risk we face in engaging in long distance love is that the feelings are to a very large part self-generated based on a relationship we create in our minds absent a relationship that is more physically present.

 

What you suffer from now is analysis paralysis. Until you stop wondering, analyzing, giving a crap...you will not be able to move forward. Many people stay paralyzed by unanswered questions regarding love. But when you uncover the mysteries of love and how we are responsible for it, you can bask in its glory and create more for yourself in a different place and time.

[midori]

analysis paralysis -- excellent phrase.

 

yes yes yes. At the end of my day it's all about me. So it is for everyone. Fear not Tony. I do not love my ex, not even a little bit. He's the epitome of several things I despise.

 

Now get off the site Tony and go out and have a fabulous birthday dinner, or something equally wonderful.

 

And thanks. A lot.

 

-midori

[MercyRose]

All the replies here are wonderful, insightful, compassionate and polite. But you need a wakeup call.

 

He wanted you for sex-it was great after all. You were and still are for all your denying in love with him. The despise blahh blah etc is a phase. You will probably be in love with him forever.

 

I just hope it doesn't take you forever to accept him and the situation as it is.

 

Some men will say anything to a woman to get whatever it is they want from her. And what they usually say is exactly what the woman wants to hear.

 

If he loved you he would be with you now, not shacked up with some other woman. He made the effort to be with this woman but he didn't make any such effort to be with you, nor does he seem to want contact with you.

 

I think the message is loud an clear. You are not 'the one' for him no matter what you feel for him.

 

Just because your felt a beautiful sweet love for him doesn't mean he felt the same for you, because the love you feel is coming from inside of you and you are sharing that love with him.

 

Try and keep the love you have for him inside your heart, like a light, because its beautiful. But move on with your life and wait for mutual love.

 

It may never feel the way it did with him but it doesn't mean it won't be wonderful too.

 

You need to be brave and try to let him go. If you try and fail don't worry. Keep on trying because with time you will slowly get stronger until one day you finally let go. You will do this because you will not only finally see him and the situation as it really is, you will also accept it and still love him-freely.

 

You may find yourself rejecting what I say because you don't want to hear it but print it out and look at it in a few months from now.

 

At the moment you only see what you want to see, but you need to see what really is. Good luck

[midori]

thanks for your reply. You're quite off the mark in several ways, but I appreciate your effort. I do not love my ex. I do not want him back nor am I in denial about that fact. There are feelings there, yes -- resentment probably tops the list. But not love.

[butterflyz]

well, tony has summized a great deal of what i was thinking while i was reading your posts, midori.

 

the only thing i can add is this:

i know how it feels to have invested in a relationship, given it my all and walked away without the man, the relationship, etc. and it felt like hell at the time, but in order to turn these feelings around, i try to look at what i learned from the men i've dated, what they've given to me, instead of what i didn't walk away with.

 

a person once told me: the opposite of love is hate, the opposite of hate is indifference. so, the opposite of love is indifference. when you don't care whether anything good or bad happens to them, you've successfully moved on.

 

the blunt fact of the matter is that you both didn't see the worth of the relationship in the same manner. you loved him, he couldn't return the sentiments. when it meshes, it meshes - there is no rhyme or reason.

[midori]

hey thanks butterflyz. You've hit it on the head actually: we didn't see the worth of the relationship in the same way. If it had been a clear-cut case that he just didn't love me, it would have been much much easier for me to comprehend and accept. Would've sucked, sure, although I doubt I would have gone as deep as I did with him if he hadn't loved me. But there was the crying on the street, the deep bouts of depression that drove him to seek psychiatric help after breaking up with me, nearly crashing his car, etc. His refusal to allow mutual friends to speak about me to him. All of this suggested to me that he did indeed love me but was sabotaging the relationship because it required things he wasn't prepared to give. Or, as is likely, because the very prospect of a committed, lasting relationship scare the pants off him.

 

What's been difficult for me to grasp is that love can be there but the two people involved might have very different notions of what the relationship ought to be like, what can be sacrificed for it, etc. When I've felt love for someone I've treasured it and wanted to nurture it. The sad thing is that, for my ex, love and commitment are very scary things. He comes from a broken home with a lot of resentment and bitterness surrounding his parents' divorce. His mother is a mentally unstable alchoholic. It's not surprising that he couldn't deal with intimacy ... but it has taken me a long time to recognize what that actually means. Chances are that this guy will never be able to fully commit himself to another person, will never be able to stick things out through good times and bad, etc. That's not how I am. I'm not afraid to sacrifice and even suffer a bit if doing so will benefit someone I love. I don't have his handicaps, so it's been very difficult for me to imagine how things are for someone like him.

 

Another excellent point you've made is that indifference is the final phase. Indifference is what I'm longing for. Sometimes I have it. Other times I don't. I think I'm going through all of this so that when I put it away it will be gone for good.

 

Thanks. Hearing this stuff from other people is enormously helpful. It's good to talk about it to others besides my (excellent, skillful and sympathetic) therapist. I've stopped talking to my friends and family about it because it troubles them to see me hurting, and they've seen me hurting for quite a while. It's not so bad. It's not completely gone yet -- which is why I posted -- but everyday I get a little bit closer to complete indifference. I can't wait.

[Debster]

Midori.

 

I'm dealing with a very similar situation. My ex and I were on-again, off-again for two years with him getting scared and running away each time. Unfortunately, I don't have any answers for you, but I feel for you. What I keep doing to try and help deal with it is to go out with my happily married friends. When I see how they are together it makes me realize that - that is what I want. And it makes me realize that yes, we had that, but it never lasted. And that what I want is for it to last.

 

If you have any tips that help you get through this - please let me know.

[midori]

I think I posted expecting that someone would be able to say,"look here's what was going on with your ex: ___ ... and then ... obviously he was scared, didn't want to put you through any more grief than he already had, has cut all ties because he can't deal with you moving on but knows that you both need to do that."

 

Which is what I believe actually, and wanted to know if that's a reasonable conclusion to make.

 

But I got better stuff from Tony & Butterflyz. Tony's points were all good, and the clincher, for me, is what Butterflyz said: my ex and I viewed relationships differently. It's not a question of "was there or was there not love between us?" I couldn't figure out how he could do what he did, given the fact that he loved me so. I was stuck trying to figure out if he loved me, or if I was completely deluded.

 

Wrong question. I hadn't properly aligned what I knew about the situation. I've known for ages and ages that my ex has huge issues surrounding family, commitment, and just being there for someone when doing so was emotionally taxing for him. He has coping mechanisms that allowed him to survive a childhood in an increasingly dysfunctional family. Rather than get bogged down in depression and apathy -- as I have seen others do who come from troubled family backgrounds -- this guy is driven and successful. He's also an emotional cripple. He feels things, but he has no idea how to deal with what he feels.

 

It wasn't that he didn't love me. It's that for him love does not mean lasting relationship. That's what I couldn't understand and now perhaps I finally do. I'm not one to fabricate mutual feeling where none exists -- although for a while I was questioning that. I'm not insane or delusional, I just have an entirely different set of expectations about what love means, how it is manifested in real life, etc. When I love someone I want to build a relationship with them, because I want to share life with them, and because I want to provide the means to nurture and maintain the love. Moreover, love isn't full and rich unless it's something that feeds back into real life; it can't just be something around which life is constructed. My ex's approach is to dive into love, bask in its initial glow and then get the hell out before obligations set in. He tried, he really did. He was nevertheless a thoughtless jack*ss whose coping mechanisms led to thoroughly selfish and callous behavior.

 

It's funny, back during our brief engagement (nearly 2 years ago), I remember thinking that, where he was at the time, there was no way he'd be there for me if, for example, I was stricken with cancer. I knew that he loved me, but I also knew that he was still so skittish about obligations to others that he'd find a way to not be there if something difficult came up. He'd have a good reason -- he always did. The stronger the obligation, the greater his need to escape it.

 

See, I knew all that. I've known it for a long time. It's just taken me until now to put the pieces together in the right way. I was questioning whether or not he loved me. I couldn't see how he could treat me the way he did -- before, during and after our break-up -- if he loved me. And I knew he loved me. The evidence seemed irreconcilable. Either I had to accept that he'd never loved me (which I tried to come to terms with but which just never rang true) or I had to believe that he was just made of different emotional stuff than I was, capable of loving me one minute and then falling for someone else the next.

 

But it was really just about how he viewed relationships so differently than I. My failure lay in not seeing how profoundly different our approach to relationships is. He's got strained relationships with each of his parents, he leaves the care of his chronically ill mother entirely on his sister's shoulders, he has literally dozens of superficial friends but none who actually know him. And I'm the opposite: strong family ties, smaller social ciricle comprised of genuine friends.

 

If you look at love and the relationship as two related but separate things, I think it's easier to see how one can be there but the other is not, or is fractured and doomed.

 

I would never try to make someone fall in love with me, or to force them to stay in love with me. Doesn't work for one thing, and even if it did -- ala a love potion or some other imaginary mechanism -- it wouldn't be real. I'm not interested in false love, the things that would come from it wouldn't begin to satisfy me. That's what I couldn't figure out: I wasn't forcing his love. It was there, undeniably. What I was (unwittingly) trying to force was the outcome of his love. For me the natural outcome of love is to build a relationship with that person. Not so for him. I didn't see that.

 

This reply, intended for Debster and anyone else who has struggled with this kind of thing, is much longer than I expected. I could go on. I won't though, except to say thank you so much, especially to Tony & Butterflyz, because even though I've heard (and thought) the things you said before, your variations of the messages got through to me in a way that hadn't happened yet. We'll see where I am in a week or two, but I think I've turned a corner, at last. I'm still resentful in some ways, still think that my ex could have, and should have, done better by me in the aftermath of the breakup, but at the same time, given what I know of him, I'm not surprised. I'm not dumbfounded anymore.

 

Thanks.

 

-midori

[Debster]

I guess you CAN tell a lot about a person by the relationships they keep with friends and family. My ex was very similar too were he had friends, but none who he really opened up to. I was the only one he opened up to and I think that scared him. He preferred just keeping everything bottled up inside.

[butterflyz]

so don't rush yourself. thanks for the "thanks". it's nice to know i can help.

 

while i come from a dysfunctional home (i really don't know anyone who doesn't - scary huh), i am not fearful of commitment. i would like to eventually be in a loving relationship with a great circle of close knit friends. but, unfortunately, i have been very betrayed by those i once considered friends and lovers, so for a while, i will lay low and just keep my own counsel. i'm terrified by the thought of confiding in anyone or trusting anyone because of the trauma i've been through. i know it time this will subside.

 

in time, i hope to rebuild a life. i'm shooting for a year from now. if in a year i can't - then i don't really know what i'll do.

 

but, if i never find love again, then it's one of those things i'm not meant to have. the way i see it, there are some things in life that you are going to have and some things you are not. for me, it seems that love is something i'm not meant to have. so, focus on what you do have.

 

but i'll tell you this - the next man i allow in my life is someone who will be trustworthy, not controlling or smothering or have a grandiose complex or feel an intense need to "fix" me. if he displays any of those traits - i'm outta there.

 

i understand what you mean, though, when you say that people get tired of listening to the stories. i've determined that people love talking to me about their problems, but when i've had problems, well....let's just say i've been hung to dry. so, i will try and pick better friends. and i just don't vent much about problems anymore.

 

good luck with everything. hope you feel better soon.

[midori]

you're right of course about the resentment.

 

I really do think that the first step one must take in order to be in a position to make a commitment is to open up to others. Yes, that does mean taking risks. I think that the reason my ex, for example, couldn't make a lasting commitment to me is because both of his parents, his mother in particular, failed him miserably during his middle-to-late childhood. And his mother continues to be a troubling presence in his life, so ill and wrapped up in her own misery that she can't be of any use to him. Not the kind of thing that inclines one toward relying on other people.

 

If you're convinced that people are untrustworthy, you just might be unwittingly drawn to people who actually are trustworthy -- a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. Not one that you want fulfilled, but at least it fits into the way you've made sense of the world and your experiences, so it isn't jarring.

 

I don't know how people can overcome fundamental betrayals that cause them to doubt the very basic parts of human relationships like trust and love and kindness. I'm fortunate because I've got a very solid family, two parents that I can and do absolutely rely on, a wonderful sister, and some very good friends. So, although over the years I've had several "friendships" with people who subsequently proved to not be good friends by my definition, and I've dated more than my share of jerks, my belief in others' good intentions remains. Maybe I'm a bit naive even now. But if you can't trust other people, I really don't know how you can ever love them -- or allow yourself to be loved by them.

 

What will you do, do you think? Keeping your own counsel might work sometimes, but surely it would be better to find a few good people to confide in. There are good people everywhere, I really do believe that.

 

Well, thanks again. And good luck to you too.

 

-midori

[Tony T]

You have made some very compelling arguments for forgetting this guy forever. A person from his family background can never be fully present in a personal relationship with the opposite sex. The two of you are basically from different planets.

 

I hope this thread has helped you in some small way to begin the process of getting this guy out of your system.

 

I do think we attract people into our lives to teach us lessons...and to fulfill our expectations of other people.

 

The world is getting less trustworthy all the time. Good people are hard to find...there I go, feeding my subconscious mind that bullshxt I need not process. But realizing the reality, I can be on alert and let in the good people who will make my life richer.

 

Don't blame yourself if the jerks slip through and get into your life in some way. You can only blame yourself if you allow them to remain there.

 

Good luck.

[clia]

This is a great thread.

 

I'm guilty of doing the same thing, somewhat. When I meet someone and have a relationship, if it doesn't work out, I want to remain friends and have that contact, not necessarily because I'm in love with them, but just because I hate losing people who at one time meant a lot to me and who I share a lot of great memories with. It's difficult for me to understand how people can spend a lot of time with someone and share all of that and then...poof...just walk away like nothing ever happened.

 

I'm pulling this now with my ex, who is a major CP, which is why I ended things. He was the one who said he wanted to stay in contact, initially I said no, but then after I was "over" him, I contacted him and said I'd be open to it. Has he pursued it? Nope. Not a bit. Was I surprised? Honestly, yes. We never had a fight, didn't have a bad break up. The last time I saw him we were still dating and he gave me a big hug and kiss goodbye. It was just his commitment issues that put things to a stop (because I didn't want to deal with them). To be honest, I thought he'd be thrilled to hear from me, but he obviously wasn't. It's so baffling to me. We were great together and talked every day multiple times when we were together, and I wonder how he was able to shut it off like a switch, while I really had a hard time initially with missing him. Obviously, we viewed the relationship in different ways.

 

But it's still baffling. Sometimes I wonder if it's me. How is it that so many men I meet can seem to just cast me off with no thought when I had all those feelings? (Of course, I always ignore the ones who come running back...ugh such is life.)

 

So, midori, I know exactly how you feel.

[aquarius]

I would rather cut off contact with someone than maintain a fake, shallow relationship. I think people are usually trying to ease their pain when they attempt to stay in touch.

 

It is hard to walk away and it doesn't mean I don't think about and miss people, when this happens. It doesn't mean I never liked, loved etc. Do you expect exes to show you that they miss you? No, they are trying hard not to convey those things.

 

It is just my way of dealing. I recently ended contact with someone and I still think about him but he didn't want a genuine friendship. I can't have him around, if we can't have something real. I had good times with him and if we leave the door open a crack then I will always be left wanting more. I hope this offers you a different perspective.

[Ally Boo]

I find it harder to be friends with my ex's bc I am too immature to get past jealousy (if I still care about them in a slight way) if they get in another relationship. Or if I dont care, they usually have the problem with me getting involved with someone. And then there is of course, the feelings tend to come back, and I wind up being tempted to try again.

 

Its easier for me to just walk away, and not worry about drama.

[Tony T]

Beryond the jealousy and everything else, there is simply no point in establishing a friendship because one or both of the parties will eventually become involved in another relationship and then neglect any friendship that has been established...causing even more hurt.

 

If you couldn't have a good realtionship with someone, it's not likely there can be a quality friendship, except to the extent that it would be rather fake and shallow as someone pointed out earlier.

 

Best to part friends...and part period!

[Ally Boo]

Originally posted by Tony

If you couldn't have a good realtionship with someone, it's not likely there can be a quality friendship, except to the extent that it would be rather fake and shallow as someone pointed out earlier.

 

Very well said, Tony!

[Crystal]

the song is a country song that is sung by a woman, forgot who tho and she says?

 

how did i go from someone you love'd to someone you use to know...

 

 

something like that anyway....

 

i get chills everytime i hear it tho thinking how that happens after so many years in a relationship and you split up and then see each other later in life and maybe the person is with someone else and they ask who you were, and the person says "just someone i use to know".

 

how painful to be just someone you use to know after sharing so much together..

 

i am not saying that is how you are feeling, i am just relating this song to this whole post...

 

thats all...

[midori]

It is sad. And unnecessary, to some extent.

 

I don't agree that people can't be friends after a relationship ends. Especially given the fact that relationships end for a variety of reasons, the ending can be mutually agreed -- or not. Etc.

 

As for me & my ex (referenced here only because it was the root of this thread), well in the last several days I've realized that my version of events makes the most sense, now that I've slotted in the important distinction between love and the relationship that we tried to build because of the love we felt. So, with my understanding that my ex really did love me but couldn't handle the realities of a long-term relationship with me, I can see why he and I can't be friends, now or anytime soon. Maybe never. Not so much because of me, but because of him. After we broke up he made me promise not to tell him about guys I was dating (ridiculous because I couldn't even think about going out on a date for nearly a year after the break-up and by then we weren't talking at all). Our mutual friends are not allowed to mention my name to him, or (obviously) tell him anything about me. Hed doesn't want to hear that I've moved on. He can't be a friend to me.

 

As for me, well, I think that provided both parties have moved on and are happy in their current lives, exes can be good friends to have -- within boundaries. They've seen sides of you that others have not. Talking to an ex about problems in a current relationship is usually not a good idea, for any number of reasons. There have to be limits, but if both parites are truly in places where a friendship would be appropriate, then I don't think that the limits even need to be laid down.

 

It depends: on the people, on how the relationship was and how it ended, and on where each person is at the moment. There has to be mutual goodwill.

 

For those who have been following this very long thread (and my very long posts): in the days since I first put it up here I feel sooo much more at peace about the whole thing. To the point, in fact, where I'm feeling a benign pity for my ex. Some contempt too, but that's to be expected really. Mild contempt and pity -- that's pretty good.

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

-midori