God made us to be like HIM?

[lovelorcet]

Michelangelo was most likely gay and for the time he lived in that would have been cosidered extremely subversive. But somehow that was the last thing I was thinking of as I was standing in the Sistine Chapel admiring the sheer beauty of his work.

 

He was also a poet, architect and engineer and made many contributions to knowledge. The knowledge he discovered is there no matter what type of person he was it does not change the discoveries me made.

[Love Hurts]

If you are sick and you have the option for a scientifically developed treatment or to sit around and pray for god to cure you which would you take?

 

 

Hey we all have to die eventually.

 

Did you know Jesus calls himself Dr.?

 

 

But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them,

They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. (Matthew 9:12)

 

See Jesus is the Physician of all Physicians.

 

Check this out:

 

Paging Dr. Jesus... Paging Dr. Jesus...

…Stat emergency room one… Atheist taking last breaths… calling on Jesus to Save.

 

Jesus came not to call the righteous,

but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17

 

You are a sick person: in need of Dr. Jesus now.

 

 

What if death is instant like an explosion. Then what?

Its over... no clinging to life to reconsider.

No last chance stat.

No calling on Dr. Jesus... to late.

[Love Hurts]

Lovelorcet,

 

 

This could be the beginning of a cure.

With part of your heart… you seek God.

Obviously or you would not be here.

Yet another part of you seeks to disclaim His very existence.

 

You desire others to find some magical key that will unlock the door to your heart and let the Truth, let the True Living God in to light it up and realize His very existence is true,That His word is true, that Jesus did come to save us from… Hades.

 

There is no magic key… The Key to finding what you seek… is very close.

It’s a matter of distance.

 

It’s a matter of the distance between your knees and the floor.

 

Of course that’s a great distance when Pride is our eminence.

Humility is not an attribute when Pride rules the house.

How can I dare make a claim your eminence is Pride?

 

Obviously others have to prove to you there is a God.

Believing in God; one does know God is superior to man…yet...

if man has no God;

Man Now becomes the superior being; since there is no God above man.

Having No God; there is None to answer to; None to pay homage to.

 

Since there is no God, then who need you be humble to?

Since there is no God man has no sin… no sin to repent of.

And saying one has no sin in which to repent to no God of.

That is the greatest sin of all…

 

I hope you can see what you do possess; you lacking a God you possess … Pride. And Pride is why Satan fell.

God hates Pride.

 

Again we are back to the matter of distance...

How far away is this God you seek in partiality?

 

The distance is between Pride and humility.

 

The greatest distance is the distance between your knees and the floor.

How can man find God? When man is earnest...God can be found.

No man on earth can prove to you… what God can prove.

Man can offer all he can in the word of God… yes and delightfully so.

Realizing God does exist and believing in His word … is only the first step towards God.

 

The real discovery is; one you and all of us; each man… must find on His own.

What do I mean by that? Its called Salvation.

No man can save another.

Only God can save a soul.

Any saved can tell you… in backing up the word of God.

Each has had to seek out God on invite Him into their hearts… on their own.

God knows mens hearts.

Words are just that. When seeking God… the heart and the words are in accord.

 

As you seek God… as you seek any proof of His existence… look inside of yourself.

Do you permit Him to be found? Or is there a greater pleasure in Him not being found?

Where is your heart and mind?

 

Be true to yourself; be sincere and fair in your quest.

I pray these words have edified … not to cause distress but for you to see more clearly where you are in the Lord.

 

 

In your favor… I do believe you want to find God… or you would not be here.

I will be praying for you as you continue in your quest --- in this matter of the heart.

 

May your JOY be discovered in the Lord.

God Bless

[Love Hurts]

Oh-no-you-don't.

 

Tragicglands... I have taken an instant shine to you.

Nice to read you here.

 

God Bless

[Love Hurts]

as believers, we understand that God created within each of us a spark of Divine, a sort of spiritual thumbprint that identifies us as His work. However, not every person immediately responds to that part of Him that's in us – that takes nurturing (a parent who hands down the faith), environment (being among believers who help us along our spiritual journey) and faith (that leap which spiritually and intellectually connects us the great mystery of God).

 

Right on Quankanne...Faith is the Key that unlocks; the door.

 

God Bless*

[lovelorcet]

I am sorry but my point still stands... Faith or belief in god offers absolutely no explanation for our surroundings. As far as I am concerned the existence of god is negligible.

 

If I drop my pen then it will in all likelihood fall to the ground no ones faith in god will change this fact of nature. We describe this phenomenon as gravity and the laws of gravity have stood many tests. If god is there or not we still need to understand this if you are to shoot a rocket into space.

 

It is no different when it comes to biology. As a human we think we are smart and something special whereby we are the product of the laws which govern biology.

 

If you want to ask who made those laws then fine, do it. It still does not change the fact that they are there and are very active. Evolution and diversification are theories which happen to be in conflict with the faith of many christians and thereby the are forced to choose.

 

Believe the world is flat if you wish but don't think you have the right to push your nonsense on to other people.

[quankanne]

I do not see how faith offers any real answers to the world around us.

 

Another thing that I have never understood from a christian point of view is that if you believe that god made us the way we are then he built into us a curiosity and the intellect to investigate our surroundings. Why is it that the church always ends up standing in the way of the endeavor into new ideas. I find this not only frustrating but sad.

 

faith assures that whatever the answers might be, all will be well, because there's more than just one dimension to that answer you've sought. It's what stands in the way of sheer terror when you've been told that you've only got weeks to live, or that you'll never have babies, that you've been diagnosed with AIDS – it helps you to take comfort that even though you face the unknown, Someone has got your back, that you're not in it alone. Faith also walks by your side when that "real answer" is positive in nature, and celebrates it with you.

 

the Church doesn't so much stand in the way of progress, but acts as a defender of the helpless, the poor, the innocent and the mute who will be hurt or destroyed by an endeavor, because she believes in the sanctity of human life. Sometimes, a new idea overlooks the value of the human life and justifies the ends without regards to the means. Like the issues of abortion and euthanasia, which might solve a "problem" but takes no consideration of the human life at stake. The Church is the last line of defense, so to speak, because She will never change her stance on the sanctity of life.

[quankanne]

It is no different when it comes to biology. As a human we think we are smart and something special whereby we are the product of the laws which govern biology.

 

… Evolution and diversification are theories which happen to be in conflict with the faith of many christians and thereby the are forced to choose.

 

a believer understands that he is something more than "just biology," m'dear – he is unique unto himself, he is beloved of God, and therefore special. Not just another cog in the wheel of humanity. Because if that were the case, he'd have no special gifts or talents to offer the world (like Michelangelo or Shakespeare), he'd be a blob like every other blob out there, and the world as we know it would be a shade of grey.

 

I think that might be the impression of someone who cannot or will not make heads or tails of faith and spirituality, of someone who cannot think outside the box, so to speak. Evolution is a constant, which we understand because we see it mirrored in our own physical, mental and spiritual journeys. We don't deny that evolution – on a personal scale or wider one – takes place, but we question the theories that surround it because try to make sense of it.

[lovelorcet]

the Church doesn't so much stand in the way of progress, but acts as a defender of the helpless, the poor, the innocent and the mute who will be hurt or destroyed by an endeavor, because she believes in the sanctity of human life. Sometimes, a new idea overlooks the value of the human life and justifies the ends without regards to the means. Like the issues of abortion and euthanasia, which might solve a "problem" but takes no consideration of the human life at stake. The Church is the last line of defense, so to speak, because She will never change her stance on the sanctity of life.

 

I beg to differ that this has been the traditional role of the church over the last 1,500 years. It has only been with-in the last 200 years or so that intelligent people have been calling the dogma of the church into question and of recently as industrialized nations become more and more educated the power of the church has rightfully been on decline.

[bluetuesday]

I am sorry but my point still stands... Faith or belief in god offers absolutely no explanation for our surroundings. As far as I am concerned the existence of god is negligible.

 

If I drop my pen then it will in all likelihood fall to the ground no ones faith in god will change this fact of nature. We describe this phenomenon as gravity and the laws of gravity have stood many tests. If god is there or not we still need to understand this if you are to shoot a rocket into space.

 

It is no different when it comes to biology. As a human we think we are smart and something special whereby we are the product of the laws which govern biology.

 

If you want to ask who made those laws then fine, do it. It still does not change the fact that they are there and are very active. Evolution and diversification are theories which happen to be in conflict with the faith of many christians and thereby the are forced to choose.

 

Believe the world is flat if you wish but don't think you have the right to push your nonsense on to other people.

 

i have loads of points to make about this post, and it won't be brief.

 

i found what you said about 'finally someone with a bit of intelligence...' quite amusing. christians are often accused of being morons by people who think that to believe in god you must be mentally subnormal, have a dependent personality or are somehow scared to face the 'reality' of life alone. IME, many people of faith are not like this at all. you mentioned gravity, well isaac newton was a staunch believer in god. no one would deny he wasn't also one of the most intelligent people ever to walk the planet.

 

not all atheists are deep thinkers. some are, it depends on the person. most i have met have become atheists through two means i find logically inconsistent. either they are atheist because their parents were or they are atheist because they have left one religion and think because they have questions that weren't answered by that religion, there can't be a god. no offence, but i actually struggle to get intelligent conversation out of many atheists, who are guilty of the very thing they accuse others of - the firm belief other people are wrong. whatever the belief may be, that coke is better than pepsi, whatever, the very act of holding the belief means most people cannot look at the opposing point of view impartially.

 

you are right, belief in god offers no explanation for our surroundings. belief in something doesn't explain anything. the laws of the universe offer an explanation for our surroundings and our life experiences. whether you think those laws are random is up to you. i am certain they are not. the universe is a perfectly balanced and intricate machine. i am certain it didn't just happen like that. common sense and experience tells me that something cannot come from nothing. the universe we can see is as a result of energy being held in a certain matrix, a certain pattern, which is so delicate and immense i do not believe for one moment it is an accident. just as when i look at a jumbo jet - a far inferior machine than the human brain - i don't imagine some accident shook up a large box of plane parts and caused all of them to magically fit together and work.

 

there is no answer to the 'does god exist?' argument so it is pointless to have it. people who have met god, know the answer. people who have refused to meet him, think they do. but the search for god is far from irrelevant. i know why the universe exists. i know why i exist. i know what my purpose is in life, and how to fulfil it. i know the secret of life. i know how to be happy, and i am. i know why other people are not happy, and how to help them. i live a life of total fulfilment without any reliance on the things of this world. and i got it all through my search for god. you think what i found out is irrelevant and pointless only because you can't imagine it, that's all.

 

when einstein set out to imagine what it was like to sit on a beam of light - the thought experiment that led to his formulation of the special theory of relativity - you think he was concerned that he was wasting his time trying to find out things other people didn't know or hadn't yet dreamed of? no. he knew that he had questions science couldn't answer. so he set out to answer them. and in doing so, he didn't only find the link between energy and matter, he helped to explain the reason for the existence of the universe. he was also a man who believed in a higher power, incidentally. stupid huh?

 

actually, faith in god WILL tell you why your pen falls to the ground when you drop it. it is science that can't tell you because although scientists can observe the effect of gravity, they don't have a clue what it is.

 

you see, the universe is made of two basic forces, one is an expanding force and one is a contracting force. without the contracting force the universe would explode outwards and no form would be possible. without the expanding force the universe would implode and no form would be possible. so the universe is possible only by a balanced interaction between these two forces. the secret to the balance is that these forces have intelligence, they are in fact, two aspects of the same thing.

 

deists know these forces as god. the bible even has a name for them - alpha (the beginning, or the creative force which seeks expansion) and omega (the end, or the contracting force which seeks reduction). gravity is an aspect of omega, the force which seeks to reduce all form to its raw state of formless potential. dark matter is an aspect of alpha. alpha and omega are what keep the stars apart, sustain the universe and allow it to grow in a balanced way. you can believe this or not, it doesn't change the universe.

 

now whether you call gravity a law of nature or a law of god, it doesn't actually matter. nature and god are really the same thing. and whether you call the laws which govern biology nature or god it doesn't matter. the very fact there ARE laws should give you a hint that there are no laws unless someone makes a decision on what the laws will be. who made the decision about the law of gravity? who made the decision about the laws of biology? you say WE should be asking that question, but why don't you ask it yourself? from my point of view, thinking that the universe just magically works requires a hell of a lot more faith than thinking a conscious mind created it, but maybe that's just me.

 

incidentally, there is no conflict between my belief in god and the theory of evolution. i am confident that animals have evolved. but i am just as confident that humans didn't evolve from them. there is no concrete evidence for animal to human evolution. i believe we are a different species, but i've already chewed rooster's ear off about this subject so won't repeat it here.

 

my friend - it was scientists who once tried to convince the world that the earth was flat. the fact you now call that belief 'nonsense' should show you that what the scientific community now believes, will one day be ridiculed as nonsense in the same way that people today ridicule medieval thought. if you want to sell science as fact, at least keep that in mind.

[Moai]

i have loads of points to make about this post, and it won't be brief.

 

i found what you said about 'finally someone with a bit of intelligence...' quite amusing. christians are often accused of being morons by people who think that to believe in god you must be mentally subnormal, have a dependent personality or are somehow scared to face the 'reality' of life alone. IME, many people of faith are not like this at all. you mentioned gravity, well isaac newton was a staunch believer in god. no one would deny he wasn't also one of the most intelligent people ever to walk the planet.

 

I don't think that the subset of religious persons known as Christians has any more morons in it than any other subset.

 

It is true that Isaac Newton was a religious man; however, he lived in an era when atheism was exceedingly rare. He also denied the divinity of Christ--albeit in secret.

 

not all atheists are deep thinkers. some are, it depends on the person. most i have met have become atheists through two means i find logically inconsistent. either they are atheist because their parents were or they are atheist because they have left one religion and think because they have questions that weren't answered by that religion, there can't be a god. no offence, but i actually struggle to get intelligent conversation out of many atheists, who are guilty of the very thing they accuse others of - the firm belief other people are wrong. whatever the belief may be, that coke is better than pepsi, whatever, the very act of holding the belief means most people cannot look at the opposing point of view impartially

 

Then most believers are equally inconsistent. The vast majority of people are the same religion their parents are. Most atheists I know (myself included) find that god is an unnecessary hypothesis. Belief in god seems to require so many twists and turns of logic, as well as having no basis in evidence that to believe in same seems like delusion.

 

you are right, belief in god offers no explanation for our surroundings. belief in something doesn't explain anything. the laws of the universe offer an explanation for our surroundings and our life experiences. whether you think those laws are random is up to you. i am certain they are not. the universe is a perfectly balanced and intricate machine.

 

The behavior of the Universe is anything but random, and it is anything but perfectly balanced. There is no balance anywhere in Nature.

 

i am certain it didn't just happen like that. common sense and experience tells me that something cannot come from nothing.

 

If something cannot come from nothing--which I am not sure anyone actually postulates, except Christian and Muslim literalists--then where did God come from? How is you can rationalize God always being here somehow, yet the idea that matter has always been here is too difficult to grasp?

 

the universe we can see is as a result of energy being held in a certain matrix, a certain pattern, which is so delicate and immense i do not believe for one moment it is an accident. just as when i look at a jumbo jet - a far inferior machine than the human brain - i don't imagine some accident shook up a large box of plane parts and caused all of them to magically fit together and work.

 

The appearance of design is not indicative of design. The fact that the properties of matter come together to result in life on this planet is not indicative of any plan, or design. In fact, we know a jumbo jet was designed because it is so unlike what we see around us.

 

there is no answer to the 'does god exist?' argument so it is pointless to have it. people who have met god, know the answer. people who have refused to meet him, think they do. but the search for god is far from irrelevant. i know why the universe exists. i know why i exist. i know what my purpose is in life, and how to fulfil it. i know the secret of life. i know how to be happy, and i am. i know why other people are not happy, and how to help them. i live a life of total fulfilment without any reliance on the things of this world. and i got it all through my search for god. you think what i found out is irrelevant and pointless only because you can't imagine it, that's all.

 

Not so. While god is unprovable, the copmlete lack of evidence and the way the Universe and the Natural world works strongly suggests that there isn't one. To say that people who have met god know some sort of "answer" means nothing. A delusion that make you feel good is still a delusion.

 

And in your search for god, you must have rejected a great many descriptions of him/her. Why aren't you a Hindu, or Muslim, or a monotheist in the first place? At some point all of the other descriptions of god are wrong, correct? How did you reach that conclusion? The truth that you have discovered is probably the same as most others of your culture. So how much of a search did you conduct? Did Thor get an equal shot?

 

when einstein set out to imagine what it was like to sit on a beam of light - the thought experiment that led to his formulation of the special theory of relativity - you think he was concerned that he was wasting his time trying to find out things other people didn't know or hadn't yet dreamed of? no. he knew that he had questions science couldn't answer. so he set out to answer them. and in doing so, he didn't only find the link between energy and matter, he helped to explain the reason for the existence of the universe. he was also a man who believed in a higher power, incidentally. stupid huh?

 

Incorrect. Einstein used science to answer his questions. Relativity is a scientific concept. While he did believe is something "bigger", it wasn't particularly a deity. I quote, "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][COLOR=#ffaa22][sIZE=+1][COLOR=#ffdd33]It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

[/COLOR][/sIZE] [sIZE=-1]-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November, 1930

[/sIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]

Moreover, a belief is not true or false based on who believes it.

 

actually, faith in god WILL tell you why your pen falls to the ground when you drop it. it is science that can't tell you because although scientists can observe the effect of gravity, they don't have a clue what it is.

 

We know what gravitiy is, we just don't know why it works. Just because we don't have a unifying theory of gravity doesn't mean there will never be one. I fail to see how faith in god explains how gravity works. Also, because an explanation fits it does not follow that said explanation is correct.

 

you see, the universe is made of two basic forces, one is an expanding force and one is a contracting force. without the contracting force the universe would explode outwards and no form would be possible. without the expanding force the universe would implode and no form would be possible. so the universe is possible only by a balanced interaction between these two forces. the secret to the balance is that these forces have intelligence, they are in fact, two aspects of the same thing.

 

These forces you describe are not in balance, although because we see such a miniscule part of it it seems to be. The Universe is expanding right now, but will eventually contract again and then the process will repeat. The Universe is not in a static state at all.

 

deists know these forces as god. the bible even has a name for them - alpha (the beginning, or the creative force which seeks expansion) and omega (the end, or the contracting force which seeks reduction). gravity is an aspect of omega, the force which seeks to reduce all form to its raw state of formless potential. dark matter is an aspect of alpha. alpha and omega are what keep the stars apart, sustain the universe and allow it to grow in a balanced way. you can believe this or not, it doesn't change the universe.

 

I have never read anything like that before. And I agree, belief does not change the Universe one little bit. I choose to look for evidence and accept what that evidence suggests.

 

now whether you call gravity a law of nature or a law of god, it doesn't actually matter. nature and god are really the same thing. and whether you call the laws which govern biology nature or god it doesn't matter. the very fact there ARE laws should give you a hint that there are no laws unless someone makes a decision on what the laws will be. who made the decision about the law of gravity? who made the decision about the laws of biology? you say WE should be asking that question, but why don't you ask it yourself? from my point of view, thinking that the universe just magically works requires a hell of a lot more faith than thinking a conscious mind created it, but maybe that's just me.

 

It is just you. Matter behaves according to its properties. Everywhere, all the time. Because this is so, that doesn't mean that any consciousness had to be behind it. And no offense, belief in god means, by definition, that you believe all this is happening magically. Isn't god making al this happen just by saying so? Isn't that magic?

 

Human beings believe that murder is wrong. Is murder wrong because god says it is, or does god just acknowledge it? If the former is true, then god can command you to do murder and it would be right. If the latter is true, than morality doesn't come from god, it exists outside of him. And, if morality exists outside of him, why do we need him?

 

incidentally, there is no conflict between my belief in god and the theory of evolution. i am confident that animals have evolved. but i am just as confident that humans didn't evolve from them. there is no concrete evidence for animal to human evolution. i believe we are a different species, but i've already chewed rooster's ear off about this subject so won't repeat it here.

 

Well, if your belief in god has led you to your above conclusion there is a conflict between your belief in god and evolution. All life shares a common ancestor. Humans are animals, first off, and second there are mountains of evidence showing that we evolved the same way everything else did. Look it up. We are 99% the same as Bonobos, genetically. Something like 75% the same as a dragonfly. 35% the as a pine tree. We have fossilized remains of our ancestors, as well as transitional fossils between all manner of life forms. If we did not share a common ancestor with other forms of life, modern medicine would not work. We can experiment on mice because their immune systems are very similar to ours. We can develop serums using horses because they are so similar to the way we are. The list is virtually endless.

 

The question is, why is it necessary for you to see yourself as "special"? Do you find the fact of being an animal insulting in some way? How is it you can accept the evidence only so far?

 

my friend - it was scientists who once tried to convince the world that the earth was flat.

 

Incorrect. The belief that the Earth is flat (which the Bible suggests, by the way), predates science. The scientific method applied to the Earth shows it to be round. Please show me the evidence that the Church--any church--changed the belief that the Earth was flat.

 

Also, the Earth being flat was not as widespread a belief as people think. Columbus, for example, knew the Earth to be round. That is why he thought he could sail around and get to India.

 

the fact you now call that belief 'nonsense' should show you that what the scientific community now believes, will one day be ridiculed as nonsense in the same way that people today ridicule medieval thought. if you want to sell science as fact, at least keep that in mind.

 

Science changes. It is self-regulating. That is its strength, not a weakness. It is not dogmatic, either. Science does not determine "fact", it explains facts. Evolution is a fact, and science has a theory--a really good one--that explains it. Relativity is a fact, and we have another awesome theory that explains it. There is great deal we have left to discover, but that doesn't mean we haven't discovered anything.

 

There is a great deal of debate within the scientific community as to how evolution works, but virtually none as to whether evolution is a fact. To deny so is silly.

 

The problem with religion is the fact that it is so unchanging. If men didn't ignore the explanation, "god did it" we would still be rubbing sticks together on a plain somewhere.

[quankanne]

not sure why the fact that religion doesn't change is such a threat – in a world of change, it's good to know there are fixed points. Heck, even society itself has certain lines known as laws that delineate good or positive behavior from that which is bad or negative. If there were no moral guidelines, which generally are the result of a religious belief even if it is applied to a secular society, there'd be general chaos.

 

I beg to differ that this has been the traditional role of the church over the last 1,500 years. It has only been with-in the last 200 years or so that intelligent people have been calling the dogma of the church into question and of recently as industrialized nations become more and more educated the power of the church has rightfully been on decline.

 

I don't know about that – in our neck of the woods, where Protestants greatly outnumber Catholics, we've been seeing 200 and 300 people enter the Church each year, many of them converts. We have a retired Episcopalian priest who with his wife become Catholic, and he was later ordained a priest for our church, because he didn't like the direction the Episcopal church was going, and those guys are pretty much Catholic Lite! When I was a sponsor for the RCIA program, a lot of what I heard was that people were looking for a place where religious beliefs didn't change to reflect the whim of society. I'd liken the absolute values that the Church upholds to a beacon guiding a ship travelling in storm-tossed seas. My guess is that those seeking shelter in other faith backgrounds feel the same way.

 

you mention intelligence and education as the reason people leave their churches – those two also are the very same reasons why people come into a faith community. The only difference is that the former group make Intellect and Education their gods, and can only see value in that which reflects those things.

[InsanityImpaired]

It is not denying "reality", it called 'not controlled by it'.

Makes no sense in that sentence. But then again, KMT insists on not making sense.

 

seems you don't have a clue what faith is:p

Another personal attack. Yay! Line up and take your turn. I am just waiting for the first person to condemn me to eternal hell and damnation ... and then some more for not stating my beliefs (or lack of) concerning God.

 

If people make bogus arguments about God that does not strengthen their case. If people start bible-thumping, that does not strengthen their case to people who are of a different persuasion.

 

nature and god are really the same thing.

That is a brand of pantheism. Spinoza should be interesting

[bluetuesday]

It is true that Isaac Newton was a religious man; however, he lived in an era when atheism was exceedingly rare.

 

he was a thinker. thinkers have never cared what was rare, only what was provable to them.

 

There is no balance anywhere in Nature.

 

what a very odd thing to say. look up the scientific theory of critical density and see what cosmologists have to say about how finely balanced the matter in the universe is.

 

...then where did God come from? How is you can rationalize God always being here somehow, yet the idea that matter has always been here is too difficult to grasp?

 

it is not too difficult to grasp, it is incorrect. matter is formed from energy, and returns to energy. matter is energy, and some of that is formless. it is not nothing, but it looks like nothing. i 'rationalise' as you put it god always being there because god is the potential for life, as well as the reality of life. and the potential for life always existed.

 

The appearance of design is not indicative of design. The fact that the properties of matter come together to result in life on this planet is not indicative of any plan, or design.

 

since i can only assume your evidence for this statement is that you are familiar with things that seem to have a designer but don't have one, tell me something else, other than things found in nature, which appears, wrongly, to have been designed. because if there aren't any examples, i would suggest you're unfamiliar with what anything that lacks a designer and appears to have had one would actually look like. i rather suggest that your belief originates from seeing that which IS designed but which you would rather had no designer.

 

when we see that which is designed, we recognise the pattern of design. it's a curious leap to recognise the pattern of design and to postulate that no design took place. i suggest your wish for a lack of design is preventing you from formulating arguments which deny your atheism.

 

In fact, we know a jumbo jet was designed because it is so unlike what we see around us.

 

what do we see around us in this universe - planets teeming with life just like ours? planets that can support life like ours? no. there's not a scrap of evidence we're not alone in the universe. i would argue that the earth is so unlike what we see around us that it supports my argument that life here was designed.

 

A delusion that makes you feel good is still a delusion.

 

it certainly is.

 

And in your search for god, you must have rejected a great many descriptions of him/her. Why aren't you a Hindu, or Muslim, or a monotheist in the first place? At some point all of the other descriptions of god are wrong, correct? How did you reach that conclusion? The truth that you have discovered is probably the same as most others of your culture. So how much of a search did you conduct? Did Thor get an equal shot?

 

i rejected not only a great many descriptions, but all the ones i could find. no description of god is accurate. as soon as it's reduced to words it ceases to be as accurate as it was as a concept, and even the concept wasn't wholly right. god is continually self-transcending. the universe which god IS, is expanding, after all. therefore i am not a hindu or a muslim because i believe all man-made religion to be ultimately incorrect. you can include your mate thor in that.

 

While [Einstein] did believe in something "bigger", it wasn't particularly a deity.

 

i am familiar with his quote. einstein believed in a higher power, and that's what i said. i didn't say he believed in a personal god because i wouldn't twist his beliefs to fit my own point of view. i am not saying that einstein's belief means all clever people should believe in god. i am saying he was more familiar with the universe than either of us are, and saw a creative hand at work in it. he is proof that not all people who believe in god are irrational or a bit stupid. that's all. incidentally, i share his belief in an impersonal god, although i would go further and say that god is both personal and impersonal - although personal NOT in the way religion paints god, as i have stressed, i am not religious.

 

We know what gravity is, we just don't know why it works.

 

science knows that gravity is a force of attraction but that is really just a definition of one of its effects, not what it actually is.

 

Just because we don't have a unifying theory of gravity doesn't mean there will never be one.

 

nor does it mean there ever will be one.

 

I fail to see how faith in god explains how gravity works. Also, because an explanation fits it does not follow that said explanation is correct.

 

you might fail to see how a movie camera works by looking at a list of its parts. that doesn't mean somewith the superior knowledge can't shoot a film on that camera. but you are right, because an explanation fits doesn't mean it is correct. also because the universe appears to have a designer doesn't mean it is correct. i predict that any number of explanations would fail to sway the balance of probability for some people, if those people are determined that only explanations proving their existing beliefs in scientific materialism are acceptable.

 

These forces you describe are not in balance, although because we see such a miniscule part of it it seems to be.

 

if we see only a miniscule part and that seems to be in balance, how you can surmise that the rest which we can't see or measure is unbalanced?

 

The Universe is expanding right now, but will eventually contract again and then the process will repeat.

 

correct, guessing, guessing. you don't know it will contract, we have never gathered one scrap of evidence that it has ever been contracting or ever will. there is no evidence for contraction whatsoever. i do object when people who claim to be scientific state guesses as facts. it makes science look stupid. and i am a fan of science, i just know it doesn't have all the answers it claims to have.

 

Matter behaves according to its properties. Everywhere, all the time. Because this is so, that doesn't mean that any consciousness had to be behind it.

 

one of the properties of matter at sub-atomic level is that is appears to be affected by the consciousness of the observer. the link between matter and consciousness may be perplexing to a scientist, but it is they who confirm it exists.

 

And no offense, belief in god means, by definition, that you believe all this is happening magically. Isn't god making al this happen just by saying so? Isn't that magic?

 

magically?! not a bit of it. i think all this is happening mechanically. i just think that god is the mechanic of the laws of the universe. matter assumes form by a purely mechanical process, there is no magic involved. if you think god is magical you have been taken in by other people's descriptions of god. i am not one of those people.

 

Human beings believe that murder is wrong. Is murder wrong because god says it is, or does god just acknowledge it? If the former is true, then god can command you to do murder and it would be right. If the latter is true, than morality doesn't come from god, it exists outside of him. And, if morality exists outside of him, why do we need him?

 

murder is wrong because it denies a person the right to life. it has nothing to do with god. god is above and beyond the dualistic point of view that right is the opposite of wrong. god would never command a person to do a murder. just as god would never command a person to do something nice. god does not command at all. free will is a basic law of life. so is cause and effect. if you murder, you'll have to live with the consequences. i believe that nothing exists outside god, since god IS the basic fabric of the universe. god IS matter, if you like. do we need god? that's like saying do we need consciousness. we have no choice. god is there. you can dull your consciousness, you can end your life. it doesn't affect the reality of god.

 

We are 99% the same as Bonobos, genetically.

 

so what? of course we share common traits with the other life that shares our planet. those traits are necessary to survive here. what we don't share with bonobos, or with any other animals, is imagination, self-awareness and free will. in other words, most of what makes us human. animals have never shown any ability to evolve these talents. none. they will never evolve them. our self-awareness is so high above that of animals that we could not have evolved it, if we evolved from them.

 

The question is, why is it necessary for you to see yourself as "special"? Do you find the fact of being an animal insulting in some way? How is it you can accept the evidence only so far?

 

i don't see myself as any more special than any other human. but i see all humans as special when compared to animals. i only accept the evidence so far because it only goes so far. the missing link is very accurately named. that link is missing. not unclear, not open to debate, not a question of faith, missing. there is no link. we can't find one. the evidence is, we have no link. nein link. zero link. ze link ees meesing! i'm just saying. and i don't deny evolution as fact. it clearly is a fact. i deny that humans evolved from apes. don't make me get all german again but that evidence... is missing!!

 

colombus was a paedophile, i don't care what he thought about india. okay, i'm getting silly now but it's because it's so far past tea time where i am that i'm getting delirious. can i please go now?

 

The problem with religion is the fact that it is so unchanging.

 

AMEN - we finally agree on something! although i think we agree on a lot more than you think we do. science rocks (but it knows so little), scientists need to loosen up and admit when they don't know stuff, instead of saying nasty things like 'god is rubbish' they need to realise that what they don't know is almost infinite, compared to all the things which can be known. and religion which doesn't change is very very bad indeed, and it has nothing to do with god. the real god. which, did i mention, is the only thing that is really real at all...

[Moai]

AMEN - we finally agree on something! although i think we agree on a lot more than you think we do. science rocks (but it knows so little), scientists need to loosen up and admit when they don't know stuff, instead of saying nasty things like 'god is rubbish' they need to realise that what they don't know is almost infinite, compared to all the things which can be known. and religion which doesn't change is very very bad indeed, and it has nothing to do with god. the real god. which, did i mention, is the only thing that is really real at all...

 

You equivocate in your answer. When scientists (or anyone else) says, "God is rubbish" they are referring to most of the definitions that humans have come up with so far, not your particular unique one, which seems to be that you want to call matter "god".

[lonelybird]

Michelangelo was most likely gay and for the time he lived in that would have been cosidered extremely subversive. But somehow that was the last thing I was thinking of as I was standing in the Sistine Chapel admiring the sheer beauty of his work.

 

He was also a poet, architect and engineer and made many contributions to knowledge. The knowledge he discovered is there no matter what type of person he was it does not change the discoveries me made.

Okay, you seem a truth seeker, I respect that.

could it possible we are "blindmen touch elephant"? Do you know this parable? maybe when all knowleges compose together, the bigger picture we can get.

 

Did you see the movie "a beautiful mind"? it talk about a scientist's whole life. worth to think about it behind the story:)

 

By the way did Michelangelo design the Sistine Chapel?

[lonelybird]

Another personal attack. Yay! Line up and take your turn. I am just waiting for the first person to condemn me to eternal hell and damnation ... and then some more for not stating my beliefs (or lack of) concerning God.

Hi InsanityImpaired

I wouldn't condemn you. ok, a little mad about your comment at first. the intention in our heart is telling people the good news which blessed us believers greatly. we want people blessed as we are. But it is very true there is a living law (much like nature rules) written in our heart, when you obey those rules, do yourself good; when you are against those rules, do yourself harm. people want to ignore those living rules doesn't mean it doesn't exist

[Green]

So you think theres life on other planets I'm not suprised you do but hey you relize scientist cant fully explain why theres life on this planet. They cant agree on why life started. So why is it ok for you to think something scientificaly posible but not at all proven about that subject but people who believe in god are morons?

[lovelorcet]

you mention intelligence and education as the reason people leave their churches – those two also are the very same reasons why people come into a faith community. The only difference is that the former group make Intellect and Education their gods, and can only see value in that which reflects those things.

 

There is a direct and statistic significant correlation between the increase in overall education of an individual and the decline of religious importance.

 

 

But of course what are statistics what you have anecdotal evidence...

[lovelorcet]

Okay, you seem a truth seeker, I respect that.

could it possible we are "blindmen touch elephant"? Do you know this parable? maybe when all knowleges compose together, the bigger picture we can get.

 

Did you see the movie "a beautiful mind"? it talk about a scientist's whole life. worth to think about it behind the story:)

 

By the way did Michelangelo design the Sistine Chapel?

 

I do not know what the exact parable you are talking about but the way see it if enough people touch the elephant and document their findings it would be possible to reconstruct what is being touched.

 

I have no idea why you find it important to mention "A beautiful mind" in this context. So what, it was a story about a scientist with mental illness. Who he was as a person has no meaning to the discoveries he made. The discoveries speak for themselves.

 

Michelangelo painted the inside of the Sistine Chapel.

[lovelorcet]

So you think theres life on other planets I'm not suprised you do but hey you relize scientist cant fully explain why theres life on this planet. They cant agree on why life started. So why is it ok for you to think something scientificaly posible but not at all proven about that subject but people who believe in god are morons?

 

Just because science is not able to offer compelling answers to a question at this point in time does not mean that the next logical step is well if we can't explain it then it MUST be god.

 

Now let me make this really clear... I never said that people who believe in god are morons. I have the upmost respect for people who can debate about in issue in an intelligent way especially when thier opinion differs from mine.

 

I grew up as a catholic boy, spent my summers at a camp run by episcopalian church and even was a counselor there myself, taking care of the kids when I was older. I have attended numerous scientific and theological ethics course and seminars.

 

My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence and there are extremely few people of faith who have spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what science it. Many think they know, but they really don't.

[Love Hurts]

Makes no sense in that sentence. But then again, KMT insists on not making sense.

Another personal attack. Yay! Line up and take your turn. I am just waiting for the first person to condemn me to eternal hell and damnation ... and then some more for not stating my beliefs (or lack of) concerning God.

If people make bogus arguments about God that does not strengthen their case. If people start bible-thumping, that does not strengthen their case to people who are of a different persuasion.

That is a brand of pantheism. Spinoza should be interesting

 

This is all about you… the unsaved.

If you feel a fiery dart coming your way …

know it comes out of love.

Our goal is to help you see the light of God.

We human may step on your toes a little.

Your tough you can take it.

 

These conversations of today that may render a bees sting.

This is nothing compared to the tortures of Hades.

And fear not them which kill the body,

but are not able to kill the soul:

but rather fear him which is able to destroy

both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 10:28

 

Unsaved will meet up with the god of this life in his kingdom.

You must know, that as you deny Christ today

He must deny you tomorrow.

But whosoever shall deny me before men,

him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33

 

In denial… of Christ… Who is left?

The other god of this world

2 COR. 4:4 Satan.

 

So as we strive to reach a heart that seemingly

is locked up tight.

A sting is minute compared to what the Lord came

to Save you From.

Reaching out to you through

the Love of Christ with a kiss or a word of bats…

Wont you wake up!

How much time does any of us have?

What if you died today?

As you are now… your fate is sealed.

How much time does any of us have to decide?

How many of us will cling onto life long

enough for a last chance?

 

For the scientific intellect

Its good to read BluesTuesday

Unraveling this tangled matterof mass.

As God uses all of us in the body of Christ…

to reach out to a diverse people/minds.

Its one step at a time, striving to understand

where one another is coming from.

 

Truly through this

I do believe if a non-believer

is in a religious topic.

Its more in their favor … it is to seek

a true existence of God.

That one is sincerely looking

in their own way. Or why be here?

There are plenty of other places to spend ones time … right?

 

Can you open up and begin to ask some sincere questions?

If one can let the walls down and sincerely open up…

Its a begining to solid ground.

 

Know that the pat on the back; offered

to a brother or sister in the Lord.

Is not against you; those that do not believe.

Know that as we do the work of the Lord…

one may get run down.

The pat of encouragement is; come on lets keep on going…

There are souls at stake

We have souls to take from the grip of the enemy.

We encourage one another in our walk of faith.

It’s a walk that we prayerfully

and wholeheartedly want you to be a part of.

 

Ok back to the drawing board lets see how we can take

those blinders off that you might see the light of God?

 

God Bless*

[lonelybird]

I do not know what the exact parable you are talking about but the way see it if enough people touch the elephant and document their findings it would be possible to reconstruct what is being touched.

 

I have no idea why you find it important to mention "A beautiful mind" in this context. So what, it was a story about a scientist with mental illness. Who he was as a person has no meaning to the discoveries he made. The discoveries speak for themselves.

 

Michelangelo painted the inside of the Sistine Chapel.

I cannot believe you missed a important thing. Yes, he is a scientist with mental illness, he was so fond of numbers and theories that he went nuts. But his wife didn't abandon him because of his disease, on the contrary she supported and loved him. BECAUSE of her continuing love this scientist was able to defeat the mental illness and finally developed a famous theory. but he said during his journey he found a aboslute truth, that is LOVE.

[Love Hurts]

Just because science is not able to offer compelling answers to a question at this point in time does not mean that the next logical step is well if we can't explain it then it MUST be god.

 

Now let me make this really clear... I never said that people who believe in god are morons. I have the upmost respect for people who can debate about in issue in an intelligent way especially when thier opinion differs from mine.

 

I grew up as a catholic boy, spent my summers at a camp run by episcopalian church and even was a counselor there myself, taking care of the kids when I was older. I have attended numerous scientific and theological ethics course and seminars.

 

My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence and there are extremely few people of faith who have spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what science it. Many think they know, but they really don't.

 

 

 

[i grew up as a catholic boy, spent my summers at a camp run by episcopalian church and even was a counselor there myself, taking care of the kids when I was older. I have attended numerous scientific and theological ethics course and seminars. ]

 

 

The Demons the Fallen Angels Believe and tremble

James 2:19

 

They were there when He was there.

For Christ is from old from everlasting. Micah 5:2

But knowledge doesn’t Save anybody.

 

In John 2:23-24 He could see that It was just and Intellectual Ascent.

 

Paul said I declare unto you the Gospel Jesus Knows All Men

You may have learned something of God… but you never really found God.

 

[My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence and there are extremely few people of faith who have spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what science it. Many think they know, but they really don't.]

 

You did not accomplish what you set out to. You spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what, nor did you find God.

 

So as you as you state “Many think they know, but they really don't.” and your “My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence”

 

Is this is a fair statement… if you failed to find God?

 

Of course you can now proclaim science is the way. You didn’t do your research and now sell us the cop out version of your studies.

 

He could see that It was just and Intellectual Ascent; John 2:23-24

[lovelorcet]

I cannot believe you missed a important thing. Yes, he is a scientist with mental illness, he was so fond of numbers and theories that he went nuts. But his wife didn't abandon him because of his disease, on the contrary she supported and loved him. BECAUSE of her continuing love this scientist was able to defeat the mental illness and finally developed a famous theory. but he said during his journey he found a aboslute truth, that is LOVE.

 

He did not go "nuts" because he was obsessed with numbers, he suffers from a mental illness.