Green Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Some one else made a joke about a demon in camera I was pointing out I didnt believe that... I could easily prove there is no demon in my camera the oposite with be dificult to prove. what did anything you said have to do with god or being created in his likeness? Your arguemets are ridiculouse. So do you believe in anything you cant see? Did you ever ask yourself whats going to happen when you die? or is that concept to frightning for you to grasp Link to post Share on other sites
tragicglands Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 The majority of Americans may well believe that the US is abigger country than Canada, when factually it is not. Did you count Quebec? Enjoy it whilst it lasts. http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/phys01.htm?sdi=area Link to post Share on other sites
Green Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 hahha oh yeah that insanity quebec shouldnt split but the US has a larger population than canada and who knows where u got the information most americans thing the US is bigger? u have no point as usual Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityImpaired Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Some one else made a joke about a demon in camera I was pointing out I didnt believe that... I could easily prove there is no demon in my camera the oposite with be dificult to prove. But how. If we assume the daemon is visceral, does not have any mass, is invisible et cetera, you can't prove the daemon is there or not. Because you can't disprove it is there, you can't say that it is there (or not). Why should that argument prove that God does exist, when the prove is lacking, but does the same argument prove that the daemon does not exist? what did anything you said have to do with god or being created in his likeness? Does that matter? You came up with bad arguments to prove Gods existence, and I am just pointing out that your arguments are totally invalid. Whether or not I believe man is created in the image of God (or as Nietzsche would have it the other way around) makes no difference for these arguments. Your arguemets are ridiculouse. So do you believe in anything you cant see? You do. Because that is the argument you are making with regards to God. Why does the argument apply to God, and exactly the same argument not apply to the daemon? Did you ever ask yourself whats going to happen when you die? or is that concept to frightning for you to grasp Of course. And because I may have a different persuasion than you, that does not mean my persuasion or yours is necessarily wrong. Although, given the arguments you made, I have reason to believe that you believe otherwise. Are we getting personal? My, my ... I am very much amused to be honest. The argument of fear, a classic argument. And invalid. Link to post Share on other sites
InsanityImpaired Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 hahha oh yeah that insanity quebec shouldnt split but the US has a larger population than canada and who knows where u got the information most americans thing the US is bigger? u have no point as usual My point is perfectly valid. And only an ignorant person is unable to come up with the notion that reality is not real, because you can't accept it. But apparently, you are an expert in denying reality KMT. Next thing will be that you claim the pope is from South Africa. And because Lovelorcet does not believe in God, his statements will be automatically discarded. That is not intelligence, that is stupidity and ignorance. Link to post Share on other sites
tragicglands Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 That is not intelligence, that is stupidity and ignorance. Oh-no-you-don't. Stupidity and ignorance is not recognising the limitations of human comprehension. Knowledge assumed is knowledge misused. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Faith is faith and not science. These two forces do not mix. Science works to give rational answers to our surrounding world... Faith offers nothing of substance. i would like to beg to differ on this one point. what most people call science is actually faith by another name, and what is most dangerous about scientific thought is its tendency to think it is infallible. we know that what science currently believes to be true, will not be true in another thousand years. the theory of relativity has been mentioned here (although it was theDC i think who brought it up), so i will expand upon that a little and remark that the scientific field of quantum physics which sprang up in light of einstein's theory of relativity clearly contradicts what other fields of science STILL hold true. the behaviour of sub-atomic particles, for example, perplexes scientists because they cannot currently understand or explain it. yet it is an observable 'fact' that sub-atomic particles, of which all matter is composed, do not act in the way science dictates they should. and the way they act appears to be inextricably linked with the way the person observing them thinks they will act. so sometimes they act as matter particles bouncing off each other inside atoms, and sometimes they behave like energy waves, according to (among other things) who is observing them. this link between the consciousness of the observer and what is being observed remains baffling. it has anything BUT a rational explanation, and yet we are talking about the very bedrock of science - the world of form at its most fundamental and it threatens to force scientists to completely re-write everything they currently think they know about the universe. if you want to deal in facts, here is one. scientists have been wrong about almost every discovery they have ever made. given enough time, scientific theory, just like everything else, gets revised and corrected. so any belief that science contains infallible truths must be just that - a belief. obtaining the same results over and over again in a lab does not prove anything. it merely confirms that the same results were obtained every time a certain experiment was carried out during a particular time. it is faith to say that no matter how many times the test was done, the results would always be the same. it is something you can never prove. all human beings, whether they call themselves scientists or deists, have a tendency to create belief systems which they elevate to an absolute or infallible truth. i understand why they do it - it is reassuring to believe in something you think is absolute and unchanging. but scientists only seem to be able to see this tendency in people of faith, not in themselves. funny, that. when scientists claim that god does not exist or that truth cannot be known unless you can see it in a petrie dish, they are simply making a claim in which they have faith, they are not stating a fact. from a purely logical viewpoint, you cannot prove that something does not exist and if you are a true scientist, you will only say that current scientific investigations have not yet proven the existence of god, or of any absolute truth. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 if you want to deal in facts, here is one. scientists have been wrong about almost every discovery they have ever made. given enough time, scientific theory, just like everything else, gets revised and corrected. so any belief that science contains infallible truths must be just that - a belief. obtaining the same results over and over again in a lab does not prove anything. it merely confirms that the same results were obtained every time a certain experiment was carried out during a particular time. it is faith to say that no matter how many times the test was done, the results would always be the same. it is something you can never prove. And that is the beauty of science... It is a work in progress that is being constantly revised until we have the best possible explanation of our surroundings which is a far more reasonable source to explain our surrounds than a book which tells us to cut off pieces of our penises to be closer to our creator. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 And that is the beauty of science... It is a work in progress that is being constantly revised until we have the best possible explanation of our surroundings which is a far more reasonable source to explain our surrounds than a book which tells us to cut off pieces of our penises to be closer to our creator. ah! finally an explanation. your penetrating insight into religion knows no beginnings, i see. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 all human beings, whether they call themselves scientists or deists, have a tendency to create belief systems which they elevate to an absolute or infallible truth. i understand why they do it - it is reassuring to believe in something you think is absolute and unchanging. but scientists only seem to be able to see this tendency in people of faith, not in themselves. funny, that. Actually I was just at a talk a bit ago by Lewis Wolpert who has written a neat book about why we as humans tend to need to believe in something. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Actually I was just at a talk a bit ago by Lewis Wolpert who has written a neat book about why we as humans tend to need to believe in something. lewis wolpert, the man who can only think of one explanation for why human beings all appear to have the propensity to believe in something? i know nothing of his book, although i do know that he assumes the reason all societies and tribes cite a belief in 'something' is solely due to genetics. in other words, he claims we are genetically disposed to have faith in something because our ancesters were. whether he thinks our ancestors were disposed through evolutionary advantage or some other reason, i don't know. but only being able to come up with one reason for something shows a lack of imagination, if nothing else. i mistrust people who say 'the only explanation for this (whatever it is they don't understand) is...' there is never only one explanation, there are other explanations, they just aren't palatable to him. so people who can only imagine one reason for anything show either that they lack imagination or that they have been forced to discount other possible explanations that don't fit with their beliefs. which shows they think their beliefs are infallible, which shows they are stuck in the mindset that makes them fit their conclusions to the beliefs. i mistrust it, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Finally someone here form the "other side" who can carry on an intelligent debate. Thanks bluetuesday Ya, the idea i that the need to believe in something is hardwired into our development. Link to post Share on other sites
Green Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Finally someone here form the "other side" who can carry on an intelligent debate. Thanks bluetuesday Ya, the idea i that the need to believe in something is hardwired into our development. Wow you called some one who doesnt agree with your point of views comments intelligent im shocked. hardwired into are brain that makes no sense, like bluetuesday said thats just one guys observation, they have no scientific evidence. The real question is why is it that your so against admitting theres a posibility something truely awsome exists that cant be explained by the limited science of man. I mean do you think there might be intelegent life on other planets for instance? Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Sure there is intelligence there, this is a person who has taken the time to educate themselves to know a little about what they are talking about before they open their mouth. KTM, you obviously have no idea just how much is hardwired into our brains and other behaviors we as human do on a daily basis. I have no interest in using any form of argument which involves a higher being to explain my surroundings because it is not a rational argument and in the end explains absolutely nothing. And as far as other life forms in the universe I would agree that it is highly probable that there is life beyond the earth. We can see from our own planet that where ever there is liquid water there is life in some form. But until there is evidence of life this is all just pure speculation. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I might be able to go along with the "hardwired" theory, but would need to have it be orginating not in the brain, but in my soul, and that some sort of external force helps bring it to fruition. as believers, we understand that God created within each of us a spark of Divine, a sort of spiritual thumbprint that identifies us as His work. However, not every person immediately responds to that part of Him that's in us – that takes nurturing (a parent who hands down the faith), environment (being among believers who help us along our spiritual journey) and faith (that leap which spiritually and intellectually connects us the great mystery of God). just finished a book by Richard Vetere, "The Third Miracle," about the spiritual struggle of a priest who has been asked to look to the cause for sainthood of a woman in New York. in the book, the character, Father Frank, gives a homily in which he supposes how much easier it would be to believe in Christ if he were among us now, that way we wouldn't have to rely on faith because we could see for ourselves. However, he says to the congregation, that would have its flaws because how would we be able to share our news that Christ is among us to a group of skeptics? Ultimately, he says, "faith does not come from what we can see or touch. If it did, there would be no value to it, no importance," because we would be hardened to it just like we've become hardened to much of the beauty of the world and the miracles that surround us now. we pray and we believe to help us come to terms with the mysteries of life and of death, because we understand that as humans we cannot fathom these things fully; so, "to love God is to love the mystery," as Father Frank points out. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 I might be able to go along with the "hardwired" theory, but would need to have it be orginating not in the brain, but in my soul, and that some sort of external force helps bring it to fruition. as believers, we understand that God created within each of us a spark of Divine, a sort of spiritual thumbprint that identifies us as His work. However, not every person immediately responds to that part of Him that's in us – that takes nurturing (a parent who hands down the faith), environment (being among believers who help us along our spiritual journey) and faith (that leap which spiritually and intellectually connects us the great mystery of God). just finished a book by Richard Vetere, "The Third Miracle," about the spiritual struggle of a priest who has been asked to look to the cause for sainthood of a woman in New York. in the book, the character, Father Frank, gives a homily in which he supposes how much easier it would be to believe in Christ if he were among us now, that way we wouldn't have to rely on faith because we could see for ourselves. However, he says to the congregation, that would have its flaws because how would we be able to share our news that Christ is among us to a group of skeptics? Ultimately, he says, "faith does not come from what we can see or touch. If it did, there would be no value to it, no importance," because we would be hardened to it just like we've become hardened to much of the beauty of the world and the miracles that surround us now. we pray and we believe to help us come to terms with the mysteries of life and of death, because we understand that as humans we cannot fathom these things fully; so, "to love God is to love the mystery," as Father Frank points out. I do not see how faith offers any real answers to the world around us. Another thing that I have never understood from a christian point of view is that if you believe that god made us the way we are then he built into us a curiosity and the intellect to investigate our surroundings. Why is it that the church always ends up standing in the way of the endeavor into new ideas. I find this not only frustrating but sad. Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 I do not see how faith offers any real answers to the world around us. Another thing that I have never understood from a christian point of view is that if you believe that god made us the way we are then he built into us a curiosity and the intellect to investigate our surroundings. Why is it that the church always ends up standing in the way of the endeavor into new ideas. I find this not only frustrating but sad. You seem fallen love with science:D When you were in your down time, did science comfort you? but God comforted me. When your situation around you seemed all bad, did science help you? Science is cold hearted, told me in a bad situation that I could never get out, but God told me to put my eyes further, because God is preparing me. the situation no longer can control me. thank you, science, you help me to understand the world, but you are a tool, I am bigger than a tool, because God blew his living spirit into me, "situation", you no longer can control me. Thank you God, you teach me how to love, how to interact with people. Before I know you, I was living an isolation to others, I was selfish, I was anger, I was self-pity, I did not take my life seriously which you sacrified your beloved son's life to save. but now how happy I am! through your Spirit I can see how much you love people, I wish they know Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 That is not intelligence, that is stupidity and ignorance. If you don't know ALL thing, let's not use the term stupidity and ignorance, in case it will backfire Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 you are an expert in denying reality KMT. It is not denying "reality", it called 'not controlled by it'. did you see believers hide when meet certain difficult situation? no, they did not hide. on the contrary they face it, they have bigger vision to deal with the difficulties. seems you don't have a clue what faith is:p Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 You seem fallen love with science:D When you were in your down time, did science comfort you? but God comforted me. When your situation around you seemed all bad, did science help you? Science is cold hearted, told me in a bad situation that I could never get out, but God told me to put my eyes further, because God is preparing me. the situation no longer can control me. thank you, science, you help me to understand the world, but you are a tool, I am bigger than a tool, because God blew his living spirit into me, "situation", you no longer can control me. Thank you God, you teach me how to love, how to interact with people. Before I know you, I was living an isolation to others, I was selfish, I was anger, I was self-pity, I did not take my life seriously which you sacrified your beloved son's life to save. but now how happy I am! through your Spirit I can see how much you love people, I wish they know Do you really want to know something in the times when I am down I have found the most help in first analyzing my current situation trying to answer the question, why am I down. Then I used my head and to find out ways of getting over my problems. I am not going to call this a scientific approach to solving problems but it is just using your head and taking care of things yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 Do you really want to know something in the times when I am down I have found the most help in first analyzing my current situation trying to answer the question, why am I down. Then I used my head and to find out ways of getting over my problems. I am not going to call this a scientific approach to solving problems but it is just using your head and taking care of things yourself. Hi, that's fine, good for you as long as your feeling don't stuck in the situation. maybe I should study new species who are the result of next evolution:p Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 Hi, that's fine, good for you as long as your feeling don't stuck in the situation. maybe I should study new species who are the result of next evolution:p If you seriously want to spend some time reading about where I am coming from then I would suggest Richard Dawkins as he has the mix of evolution and atheism which I am kind of pointing out here. Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 If you seriously want to spend some time reading about where I am coming from then I would suggest Richard Dawkins as he has the mix of evolution and atheism which I am kind of pointing out here. But I am more interested in Richard Dawkins himself. Is he alive now? what kind of life he had? his family? his whole life? if you know that, then I would seriously read his book Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 He is very much alive... and I do not see how his lifestyle has much to do with the ideas he puts forward. Why don't you answer your own questions rather than having somone force feed you information... But there we are again... Religion has a way of shutting down the parts of us which make us think for ourselves and our ability to figure things out on our own. Link to post Share on other sites
Author lonelybird Posted February 5, 2007 Author Share Posted February 5, 2007 He is very much alive... and I do not see how his lifestyle has much to do with the ideas he puts forward. Why don't you answer your own questions rather than having somone force feed you information... But there we are again... Religion has a way of shutting down the parts of us which make us think for ourselves and our ability to figure things out on our own. not shut down. this is my thinking. if he could deal well his own welfare and own family, spiritual sides---love, care, friendship, when you read a certain person's theory, wouldn't you be curious about his life? what is his background? this is important for studying his theory though....if he has a very messed up life, then I would consider a little if I read his book Link to post Share on other sites
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