God made us to be like HIM?

[lovelorcet]

[i grew up as a catholic boy, spent my summers at a camp run by episcopalian church and even was a counselor there myself, taking care of the kids when I was older. I have attended numerous scientific and theological ethics course and seminars. ]

 

 

The Demons the Fallen Angels Believe and tremble

James 2:19

 

They were there when He was there.

For Christ is from old from everlasting. Micah 5:2

But knowledge doesn’t Save anybody.

 

In John 2:23-24 He could see that It was just and Intellectual Ascent.

 

Paul said I declare unto you the Gospel Jesus Knows All Men

You may have learned something of God… but you never really found God.

 

[My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence and there are extremely few people of faith who have spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what science it. Many think they know, but they really don't.]

 

You did not accomplish what you set out to. You spent a fraction of time really trying to understand what, nor did you find God.

 

So as you as you state “Many think they know, but they really don't.” and your “My point is I have taken the time to be on both sides of the fence”

 

Is this is a fair statement… if you failed to find God?

 

Of course you can now proclaim science is the way. You didn’t do your research and now sell us the cop out version of your studies.

 

He could see that It was just and Intellectual Ascent; John 2:23-24

 

Love Hurts, is it maybe possible for you to make a point without quoting the bible? I have no opinion if god is there or if he is not. The rules of the universe are the same either way and this discovery is what I find compelling. The bible and yours quotes offer absolutely nothing to this endeavor as far as I am concerned.

 

You can pull out whatever citations you want and interpretation them however you want. These are not rational or intelligent arguments. But if you deny the observations the universe around us and their rational explanations as a person of faith I guess all you are left with is quoting nonsense.

 

And I maintain, that if there is a god, and you so see it that he gave us the intellect which we have then it can only be a sin not to use that intellect.

[lovelorcet]

In denial… of Christ… Who is left?

The other god of this world

2 COR. 4:4 Satan.

 

 

I just love this type of logic... Heed what I say or burn in hell.

 

What a joke... grow up.

[Love Hurts]

Love Hurts, is it maybe possible for you to make a point without quoting the bible? I have no opinion if god is there or if he is not. The rules of the universe are the same either way and this discovery is what I find compelling. The bible and yours quotes offer absolutely nothing to this endeavor as far as I am concerned.

 

You can pull out whatever citations you want and interpretation them however you want. These are not rational or intelligent arguments. But if you deny the observations the universe around us and their rational explanations as a person of faith I guess all you are left with is quoting nonsense.

 

And I maintain, that if there is a god, and you so see it that he gave us the intellect which we have then it can only be a sin not to use that intellect.

 

 

 

God gave you a gift of intelligence how you choose to use it is up to you.

Have you ever seen the grain of a mustard seed?

 

You can read every book ever written.

You can walk on the moon or study the ocean depths.

Study all that is and is unseen.

Study the foundations of the earth.

Study the heavens research and study more...

 

In the end; the grain of a mustard seed... so minute.

Is the size of Faith... through Faith.

You could find the God that gave man intellect.

The creator; of heaven and earth of man.

You could see through beyond and into the unseen with new vision.

You would know things for certain that now you can’t imagine.

There is far greater knowledge than the knowldge you take pride in.

Its free to all. But can you find it?

With all your intellect can you find something so small, so minute one could almost miss it?

Faith the grain of a mustard seed.

If you could phathom it and find it, you would take greater pride in

God. .. the giver of gifts.

[Love Hurts]

I just love this type of logic... Heed what I say or burn in hell.

 

What a joke... grow up.

 

 

But what if... it is true?

You hear the warnings,

you know the word of God.

What if the Bible is true?

Just what if?

[lovelorcet]

So we should all be taking the bible literally? Really? Or wait... lets interoperate it and bend its means to fit our needs.

 

It is somehow very convenient to be able to argue agree with me or burn in hell... You could make an analogy of this type of system in politics. I think we call it a totalitarianism ?? Do what we say or we kill you...

[Moai]

But what if... it is true?

You hear the warnings,

you know the word of God.

What if the Bible is true?

Just what if?

 

What if the Vedas are true? What if? Since all religions have an equal shot at being true, I am only taking a slightly greater risk than you by denying all of them.

 

By worshiping Jesus, you could be angering Vishnu. Or Allah. Or any of the hundreds of Gods that came before.

 

Robert Ingersoll has a great parable about grace through faith, which I will try to paraphrase:

 

A man has died, and he approaches the gates of Heaven. He is asked to give an account of his life.

 

"The things in life that gave me joy was helping others, working hard, and spending time with my wonderful family. My wife and children were so precious to me, I tried to be with them as much as I could. I love them so much that I made sure there was enough money to cover my burial expenses and all my debts were covered before I passed, so I would not be a burden to my loved ones when I was gone."

 

Peter asks, "Do you believe that the Bible was literally true, and the Jesus rose from the dead, and was the Son of God?"

 

The man replies, "No, that never really made any sense to me."

 

Peter commends, "To Hell with you!"

 

Another man approaches the gates. "I didn't spend all that much time with my family, and in fact I ran off with my secretary when my children were young, and I haven't kept in touch with them. I also slept with the wife of the man who owned the company I worled for. Before I left with my secretary, I embezzled several hundred thousand dollars from the company I worked for, and I left sizable debts that my family is now going to have to deal with."

 

Peter asks him, "Do you believe that the Bible is literally true, and that Jesus rose from the dead and is the Son of God?"

 

"Oh, yes," says the man. "I accept all of the bible is true, without doubt."

 

"Then welcome to Heaven!"

[Moai]

So we should all be taking the bible literally? Really? Or wait... lets interoperate it and bend its means to fit our needs.

 

It is somehow very convenient to be able to argue agree with me or burn in hell... You could make an analogy of this type of system in politics. I think we call it a totalitarianism ?? Do what we say or we kill you...

 

Doesn't it strike you that Jesus spoke like a cult leader (which he was, I mean in the modern, negative sense specifically).

 

"You must follow me or you are lost, and if you challenge me in any way, you will be punished. Anything that challenges my authority is meant to lead you astray, and must be destroyed."

 

It would be funny if it weren't so scary...

[lovelorcet]

The destructive forces of religion is one of the most underestimated things in human history. It is so ironic how religion ends up being everything that it claims not to be.

 

It offers no rational answers to our universe, but they try so hard...

 

It divides people and does not unite them, how many wars have a religious base to them in history...

 

It is used as a form or control and power where members of a community such as gays and women are oppressed...

 

They claim that they are inspiring active thought, when only it acts as a dumbing down of people...

 

It really is very sad indeed.

[quankanne]

Christ as a cult leader – the main difference between Jesus and modern day Jim Jones is that Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. That was a conclusion for man to arrive at. In fact, the Bible illustrates this in passages where Jesus tells people to not say anything about being healed. In contrast true cult leaders proclaim themselves as the Second Coming, saying whatever they must to gather a following. My thought is that those with hearts centered in God will recognize him immediately, therefore the True Messiah doesn't need to proclaim his identity, while an imposter will lie about his identity to gain power.

 

There is a direct and statistic significant correlation between the increase in overall education of an individual and the decline of religious importance.

 

But of course what are statistics what you have anecdotal evidence...

 

anecdotal evidence, or empirical evidence? After all, we've got to account for the increase in the number of Catholics to the big guys in Rome, which means statistics are gathered and sent. Aren't stats the basis of scientific rationale?

 

other point I'd like to raise is that not everyone with an increased education and intellect abandon their faith – some of us are able to find peace in both without thinking we've compromised ourselves.

[lovelorcet]

Take a look at where the catholic church is getting their new members... They are places where the overall education levels of people are not particularly good.

 

Science and statistics are based on on empirical evidence not anecdotal. "your neck of the woods" and "some guy you know" are not significant.

[quankanne]

you make it sound like only idiots are the only ones clamoring to join the Church! :laugh:

 

hate to burst your bubble, but we've got people from all walks of life who come, including white collar professionals who are college educated.

 

FYI, I use anecdotes because people can more easily identify with the information I am sharing. Stats and science-speak, while good stuff, tend to put people to sleep because there's nothing to pull them into that raw information. Call it the curse of being a reporter ...

[blind_otter]

The destructive forces of religion is one of the most underestimated things in human history. It is so ironic how religion ends up being everything that it claims not to be.

 

I tend to disagree, unless you replace the word "religion" with "religious institutions".

 

Quite the contrary -- belief in something greater than oneself has led many individuals to change history for the better. I won't be so dull as to list people since everyone has a computer with a search engine on this message board, I assume. But the truth is that religion isn't so much of a problem as specific adherents, and certain individuals.

 

The concept of religion is overall a very positive one. JMO, take it with a grain of salt.

[Love Hurts]

So we should all be taking the bible literally? Really? Or wait... lets interoperate it and bend its means to fit our needs.

 

It is somehow very convenient to be able to argue agree with me or burn in hell... You could make an analogy of this type of system in politics. I think we call it a totalitarianism ?? Do what we say or we kill you...

 

Heaven is mentioned 651.

Hell is mentioned 54 times.

 

Do you think these places are symbolic of something other than?

Jesus is not a cult.

No person needs a man made organization to find Salvation.

One can get saved waiting on a bus, flying in a plane, in your own home etc.

And its free... not a dime. Why is it free?

Jesus paid the cost on the Cross;now all any of us has to do is ask...

not from our mind, from our heart.

 

Jesus is calling you to Heaven not to hell.

[Love Hurts]

What if the Vedas are true? What if? Since all religions have an equal shot at being true, I am only taking a slightly greater risk than you by denying all of them.

 

By worshiping Jesus, you could be angering Vishnu. Or Allah. Or any of the hundreds of Gods that came before.

 

Robert Ingersoll has a great parable about grace through faith, which I will try to paraphrase:

 

A man has died, and he approaches the gates of Heaven. He is asked to give an account of his life.

 

"The things in life that gave me joy was helping others, working hard, and spending time with my wonderful family. My wife and children were so precious to me, I tried to be with them as much as I could. I love them so much that I made sure there was enough money to cover my burial expenses and all my debts were covered before I passed, so I would not be a burden to my loved ones when I was gone."

 

Peter asks, "Do you believe that the Bible was literally true, and the Jesus rose from the dead, and was the Son of God?"

 

The man replies, "No, that never really made any sense to me."

 

Peter commends, "To Hell with you!"

 

Another man approaches the gates. "I didn't spend all that much time with my family, and in fact I ran off with my secretary when my children were young, and I haven't kept in touch with them. I also slept with the wife of the man who owned the company I worled for. Before I left with my secretary, I embezzled several hundred thousand dollars from the company I worked for, and I left sizable debts that my family is now going to have to deal with."

 

Peter asks him, "Do you believe that the Bible is literally true, and that Jesus rose from the dead and is the Son of God?"

 

"Oh, yes," says the man. "I accept all of the bible is true, without doubt."

 

"Then welcome to Heaven!"

 

See I know… I have no doubts…

How can I say that?

 

Its no secret…

That knowledge comes through Salvation.

 

You know He Lives!

[quankanne]

(Religion) offers no rational answers to our universe

 

how is the desire to embrace the mystery of faith something negative? Rationality and intellect can only provide so much of an answer ... and that's where faith steps in. Religion, if executed in a positive manner, brings about positive change.

 

It divides people and does not unite them, how many wars have a religious base to them in history …

 

and how many wars are based on greed and envy? Religious wars don't corner the market, just are more well-known

 

It is used as a form or control and power where members of a community such as gays and women are oppressed ...

 

inversely, it can call people to be more compassionate toward homosexuals and minorities because the church understands the need to do so

 

[/b] They claim that they are inspiring active thought, when only it acts as a dumbing down of people …[/b]

 

once again, you're putting all your eggs into one basket, that of intellectualism. At some point, man asks himself "who am I? what is my purpose in life? why am I here?" Intellectually, he can come up with answers, but that doesn't satisfy the deeper call that comes from within. He is more than just a walking, talking font of knowledge and intellect … he is a spiritual creature even if he refuses to acknowlege it, and only in trying to make that faith connection does he get a fuller sense of identity.

 

intellect can only take you so far in life, because man is much deeper than what he knows.

[bluetuesday]

You equivocate in your answer.

 

not on purpose. plus, you got my general meaning. i find language pretty limiting when trying to explain concepts such as god. particularly god. words are not the best way to go. truly, the only way to fully understand god is to be god.

 

peace to you, moai.

[Moai]

See I know… I have no doubts…

How can I say that?

 

I don't have any either.

 

Its no secret…

That knowledge comes through Salvation.

 

You know He Lives!

 

A secret that had to be explained to you by someone else. Someone had to translate your book for you, and show the parts to read that led to your decision to embrace Jesus. Also, there are as many interpretations of what it takes to be saved as their are Christians, apparently.

 

Wouldn't you expect a book that is inspired by god to be the easiest book to understand, out of all of them? If the Holy Spirit will guide someone who earnestly wants to know god to know the book in the correct way, why are there so many different sects? Are Catholics less earnestly devout than Lutherans, or Baptists?

 

And Jesus lives, yet you have never seen him, nor has anyone else alive on Earth today. Since you already are a believer, why doesn't he show himself to you? I mean, I could see him not showing himself to me, since I doubt, but you don't. So why not just appear to you?

 

And, since Jesus is a live and I assume in Heaven--where is Heaven, exactly? Jesus is there in a physical body, is he not? It is obviously not in our solar system, so how do you get there when you die?

 

I cam to the conclusion that there is no god by, among other things, reading the bible.

[bluetuesday]

Wouldn't you expect a book that is inspired by god to be the easiest book to understand, out of all of them?

 

yes, i would. that the bible is obtuse is deeply frustrating and unhelpful. but it should be seen as a collection of writings telling different versions of stories that happened long before anyone wrote them down. it is a record of oral history, not a literal account of anything and certainly not a definitive word.

 

If the Holy Spirit will guide someone who earnestly wants to know god to know the book in the correct way, why are there so many different sects? Are Catholics less earnestly devout than Lutherans, or Baptists?

 

perhaps the holy spirit leads people to read the bible BECAUSE unless the read it they can't see for themselves that it has holes in it. perhaps reading the bible is a good thing, if it leads you to ask questions. there are different sects because people are different and some prefer to be quiet in their worship and some like to wave their arms in the air, and yet others think certain beliefs are more important than others. people will always find things to differ about. religion is like everything else. sometimes great, sometimes maddening, often confusing.

 

And, since Jesus is a live and I assume in Heaven--where is Heaven, exactly?

 

this is the best question you could ever ask. the kingdom of heaven is exactly where jesus said it was. inside you. i don't mean the physical place where dead people go is inside YOU. i mean, that's where you find heaven. inside you. as long as you're looking for it outside you, you'll never find it. heaven is a state of consciousness where you know you are inseparable from god. and you don't need to die to go there.

 

I cam to the conclusion that there is no god by, among other things, reading the bible.

 

i find it sad when people who genuinely want to know the truth abandon their search because some church or some book puts them off. if you have questions, moai, keep asking them with an open heart. eventually you will hear answers that mean something to you.

 

personally, it took me about three years of refusing to shut up until i got to the place where i was ready to hear the answers i got. i had no expectations of what those answers would be, i just wanted to know. i was ready to chuck out every belief and start again if it meant learning the truth and once i got to that point, i received a very clear answer immediately.

 

when answers come, they're not always what you expect. i didn't expect to be the only person i know who thinks the way i do. i didn't expect to overturn 30 years of belief and upset my family by rejecting everything they'd taught me. i didn't expect to get answers that were totally logically consistent. i didn't expect the answers would be so comprehensive. i didn't expect that hearing the answers would be exactly the same as re-remembering someting i'd known years ago but had long forgotten. i didn't expect to hear the voice of god. i didn't fully expect that the answers would mean i could never return to my old life.

 

remember that answers aren't always delivered in the way you expect either, or by the person you expect. if the messenger be an ant, heed him.

[Moai]

yes, i would. that the bible is obtuse is deeply frustrating and unhelpful. but it should be seen as a collection of writings telling different versions of stories that happened long before anyone wrote them down. it is a record of oral history, not a literal account of anything and certainly not a definitive word.

 

I agree.

 

perhaps the holy spirit leads people to read the bible BECAUSE unless the read it they can't see for themselves that it has holes in it. perhaps reading the bible is a good thing, if it leads you to ask questions. there are different sects because people are different and some prefer to be quiet in their worship and some like to wave their arms in the air, and yet others think certain beliefs are more important than others. people will always find things to differ about. religion is like everything else. sometimes great, sometimes maddening, often confusing.

 

And I reject it.

 

 

this is the best question you could ever ask. the kingdom of heaven is exactly where jesus said it was. inside you. i don't mean the physical place where dead people go is inside YOU. i mean, that's where you find heaven. inside you. as long as you're looking for it outside you, you'll never find it. heaven is a state of consciousness where you know you are inseparable from god. and you don't need to die to go there.

 

Okay....

 

 

i find it sad when people who genuinely want to know the truth abandon their search because some church or some book puts them off. if you have questions, moai, keep asking them with an open heart. eventually you will hear answers that mean something to you.

 

I don't have any questions. Not about religion or the nature of god, anyway.

 

personally, it took me about three years of refusing to shut up until i got to the place where i was ready to hear the answers i got. i had no expectations of what those answers would be, i just wanted to know. i was ready to chuck out every belief and start again if it meant learning the truth and once i got to that point, i received a very clear answer immediately.

 

when answers come, they're not always what you expect. i didn't expect to be the only person i know who thinks the way i do. i didn't expect to overturn 30 years of belief and upset my family by rejecting everything they'd taught me. i didn't expect to get answers that were totally logically consistent. i didn't expect the answers would be so comprehensive. i didn't expect that hearing the answers would be exactly the same as re-remembering someting i'd known years ago but had long forgotten. i didn't expect to hear the voice of god. i didn't fully expect that the answers would mean i could never return to my old life.

 

You're the only person I have ever heard of who thinks like you do. If it's working for you, go for, I guess.

 

remember that answers aren't always delivered in the way you expect either, or by the person you expect. if the messenger be an ant, heed him.

 

Roger.

[lonelybird]

These are not rational or intelligent arguments. But if you deny the observations the universe around us and their rational explanations as a person of faith I guess all you are left with is quoting nonsense.

 

And I maintain, that if there is a god, and you so see it that he gave us the intellect which we have then it can only be a sin not to use that intellect.

Can you find LOVE with rational and intelligent? so you are saying "people don't need love?"

[quankanne]

And I maintain, that if there is a god, and you so see it that he gave us the intellect which we have then it can only be a sin not to use that intellect.

 

it's not a sin to use our intellect – only to imagine ourselves greater than God because we possess that intellect. Remember, that's why Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, because they ate from the tree of knowledge and felt themselves to be on an equal level with God, not mere mortals.

 

the difference in an intellectual and a believer is that the former believes that knowledge makes him superior to all, especially God, while the latter understands that there is none greater than God.

[lonelybird]

What if the Vedas are true? What if? Since all religions have an equal shot at being true, I am only taking a slightly greater risk than you by denying all of them.

 

By worshiping Jesus, you could be angering Vishnu. Or Allah. Or any of the hundreds of Gods that came before.

 

Robert Ingersoll has a great parable about grace through faith, which I will try to paraphrase:

 

A man has died, and he approaches the gates of Heaven. He is asked to give an account of his life.

 

"The things in life that gave me joy was helping others, working hard, and spending time with my wonderful family. My wife and children were so precious to me, I tried to be with them as much as I could. I love them so much that I made sure there was enough money to cover my burial expenses and all my debts were covered before I passed, so I would not be a burden to my loved ones when I was gone."

 

Peter asks, "Do you believe that the Bible was literally true, and the Jesus rose from the dead, and was the Son of God?"

 

The man replies, "No, that never really made any sense to me."

 

Peter commends, "To Hell with you!"

 

Another man approaches the gates. "I didn't spend all that much time with my family, and in fact I ran off with my secretary when my children were young, and I haven't kept in touch with them. I also slept with the wife of the man who owned the company I worled for. Before I left with my secretary, I embezzled several hundred thousand dollars from the company I worked for, and I left sizable debts that my family is now going to have to deal with."

 

Peter asks him, "Do you believe that the Bible is literally true, and that Jesus rose from the dead and is the Son of God?"

 

"Oh, yes," says the man. "I accept all of the bible is true, without doubt."

 

"Then welcome to Heaven!"

Your parable is SO NOT true. Unfortunatelly many Christians think this ways too, so some of them deserted, but those who are lost sheeps, God will find them back, no one can escape:laugh:

After accept Jesus Christ (that means real heartly repent, decide to obey God), he will send Holy Spirit to you. When you have it, some bad habbits you did before, now naturally you will feel no interest in it anymore. and somethings you need to pratice on daily basis. like forgiveness.

 

when a person offened you, you not only did not pay back, but also you forgive him and bless him, if you choose forgiveness, then you are one more step closer to God or heaven. If you don't choose forgiveness, you are one step further from God. every choices you make is important. It is not like what you said 'ONE TIME DEAL'. through these choices God will shape you, make you more loving, caring and mature. If you once accepted Jesus, but turn around still go your own old way, then I am afraid you won't go to heaven like you think you should do.

[lonelybird]

By worshiping Jesus, you could be angering Vishnu. Or Allah. Or any of the hundreds of Gods that came before.

Jesus said "LOVE YOUR ENERMY". you can tell if it is good tree or bad tree by seeing their fruit. good tree produce love, bad tree produce hatred. you can check yourself which religion is true

[lonelybird]

Doesn't it strike you that Jesus spoke like a cult leader (which he was, I mean in the modern, negative sense specifically).

 

"You must follow me or you are lost, and if you challenge me in any way, you will be punished. Anything that challenges my authority is meant to lead you astray, and must be destroyed."

 

It would be funny if it weren't so scary...

Jesus said "I am the way". what is his way anyway? LOVE, not hate. You must know that he asked God to forgive those who crucified him. even people kill and abused him, Jesus forgave them, why? because He claims 'not hate against hate, but love', love can make enemy friend.

[lonelybird]

The destructive forces of religion is one of the most underestimated things in human history. It is so ironic how religion ends up being everything that it claims not to be.

 

It offers no rational answers to our universe, but they try so hard...

 

It divides people and does not unite them, how many wars have a religious base to them in history...

 

That was because Satan came in. that's why Christian should guard their mind and heart, and focus their eyes on God who is love.

 

It divides people and does not unite them, how many wars have a religious base to them in history...

 

Sad, if only they obeyed God's command