God made us to be like HIM?

[Moai]

Moai.

 

Yes the Bible was translated… until I could grasp it better through salvation...the greatest teaching of the Bible or the Heart of the Bible is one thing only… It teaches us soul Salvation…

it teaches the Why?Christ died on the cross = No man

gets to the Father in Heaven but by or through the Son.

How do we do that?

 

Through Salvation… What’s that?

 

I am aware that the Bible says that. I am also aware that "salvation" means a great many things to a great many people, all of whom purport to be Christians. I am also aware why you think that Jesus died on the cross.

 

This is where Faith comes in. How much Faith is needed? Not the magnitude of an ocean but the size of a grain of a mustard seed.

Faith that He does exist that Jesus did indeed die on the Cross His blood shed… that who so ever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

And those who don't perish. So, if I interpret this correctly, I will face enternal damnation because of what I believed, or thought. My actions are meanginless. Not only does that fly in the face of common sense, it is unfair.

 

All of the people who happened to be born in India, and are therefore Hindu and lead devout lives of faith and devotion go to hell, but someone here who is less than ethical but believes gets in. Doesn't that sound unfair to you? Why would a god be so unfair? Why wouldn't a god be AT LEAST as nice as I am, and I wouldn't do that.

 

Beyond that, why did god have to sacrifice his son in the first place? He's god, right? He could just give everyone a pass if he wanted to. Is it because he demands blood? Why is he so bloodthirsty?

 

God describes himself as jealous. That is not seen as a laudable human characteristic. It's a fault, actually. If god has faults, is he really god at all?

 

That is what I gathered of the greatest importance… if not to

look at Salvation then Christ was a suicide lunatic…

 

I don't know about suicide, but he was convicted and sentenced.

 

See there is no other way to Heaven in our eternity.

If we cannot find Jesus as we live and breathe on earth.

We will never find Jesus.

 

Which presupposes that I, or anyone else should be looking for Jesus. I must somehow belive in him in the first place in order to look for him. I mean, why look for something that isn't there?

 

Let's say I am supposed to be looking for a watch. I have never owned a watch, so I spend no time looking for my lost watch because I never had it to begin with. But, if I believe that I had a watch, I'd look for it.

 

My point being there is no reason for me to look for Jesus unless I already believe in his divinity.

 

Jesus did not die in vain. How difficult is it to find Jesus?

 

You’re on the right track, you in your own way seeking information…

One day by Faith … of heart believe inviting Him into your heart

to be your Lord and Savior... Its what he died for… for us...

 

I like to thik I am on the right track, too. I used to be a believer, but the more I learned the more I realized I couldn't accept it.

 

He counted us worthy enough to die for.

Jesus spoke in parables.

Parables: The language of sheep.

 

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables:

because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

 

Why would Jesus be deliberately confusing? Doesn't he want everyone to go to heaven? Why not just speak plainly? Those questions are rhetorical, by the way.

 

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias,

which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not

understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

 

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their

ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed;

lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear

with their ears, and should understand with their heart,

and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears,

for they hear.

 

17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous

men have desired to see those things which ye see,

and have not seen them;

and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

 

It's great that you get so much joy and meaning from these stories, but I don't think that they are all that special. I like the parables in Zen Buddhism much more interesting. The ones I understand, anyway. Not that I am a Zen Buddhist by any stretch of the imagination.

 

So many denominations… man has added to and taken away from…

In the maze of mess we have created… One thing will never

change…The only way to Jesus is through Salvation…we can

read and study all we like.

 

Knowledge… Salvation opens your ears and eyes...

and the parable is understood.

 

Or not. Isn't it possible that your interpretation is wrong, and that you have incomplete information? The bible that we have was assembled by men, and they made decisions about what was important and what wasn't. You are trusting that they didn't make a mistake, and also that what they decided what you didn't need to know wasn't important. You are trusting these men with your everlasting soul, by the way.

 

Just as a Hindu who is devout "knows" he is doing the right thing, you belive that he isn't. And he thinks the same of you. You can't both be right, but you can both be wrong.

 

Yes when I was saved,

I met the Lord;

He filled me with His Holy Spirit;

What’s that?

God the Father/Jesus the Son/The Holy Spirit are the Holy Trinity

Our God in Three Persons…

 

Great, but not what I meant. What color are Jesus' eyes? How tall is he? What was he wearing when you saw him? Did he have a beard? Did he need a haircut? Was he hungry? I meant seeing Jesus in the physical sense, as you see your computer, or your family.

 

I can say that if in fact you claim to haev seen Jesus in the flesh, mental health professionals are on their way. Why would that be? If Jesus is really alive, it should not only be possible to see him, but those who do would not be labelled as crazy. But they are. Why is that?

 

The Holy Spirit is a part of God -Saved is a part of God in you.

A link; to some scriptures speaking of

Filled with the Spirit of God.

 

http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php?q=Filled+Spirit&ver=kjv

 

Once filled with the Holy Spirit,,,

you belong to Christ you are sealed.

Don’t grieve the Holy Spirit of God,

in whom you were sealed for the day

of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

 

I am intimately familiar with the dogma of your faith, but I do appreciate that you took the time to quote the bible for me. I am not particularly interested in what the bible says about anything. I didn't even find it to be a particularly well-written book.

 

Consider our bodies as a house or a

vessel we hold within;

things unseen of the spirit world.

We can harbor darkness or light within

our beings.

 

Know God is light Satan is darkness.

Jesus said a house divided amongst itself

will not stand. And that God does not cast

out God nor does Satan cast out Satan.

 

Not sure what that means.

 

When the Holy Spirit moves inside of

our vessel- our house- our body {meaning

all the same as within side ourselves.

God does Cast Out Satan…

and the Holy Spirit Resides within us.

A part of God within us.

 

So you believe that Satan is an actual being. Think about that: There is a being of some osrt out there who's only purpose is to do humans harm. A being created by god, by the way.

 

Not only does that seem arrogant (humans are really so special as to have a superbeing spend all his time corrupting them), but also nonsensical. As I would expect god to be as nice as me, I would also expect Satan to be as hedonistic as me. If I were Satan, I would spend my time whooping it up. I have all this power and can get whatever i want, why should I care what humans are doing?

 

You cannot say none have seen Christ.

Many Saved have had the privy of revelation of Jesus.

Its not uncommon.

 

Nobody alive on Earth has seen Jesus in physical form. Those who claim to have are usually locked up and given extensive psychotherapy.

 

Yes I have seen Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

Through clear eyes, through Visions and,

apparition, Angels and in my brothers and sisters.

I know He Lives... He Lives Within my Heart!

Walking with Christ is whole new world.

 

God Bless*

 

Again, not using "seen" the same way. Thank you for the belssings, though!

[Love Hurts]

Once again you are speaking gibberish and nonsense...

 

Please refer to the question in post #169

 

Your citations from the bible carry no weight and it is becoming obvious that you are not capable of any type of intelligent discussion as your only means are to throwing quotes.

 

Have you ever truly learned to think for yourself? This is something that one has to put a little bit of effort into...

 

Your pretty free with your ugly insults

and accusations of others intelligence.

Pride goeth before the fall...

[Love Hurts]

Love_Hurts please reread some of your last posts, they are not even coherent... If I didn't know any better I would say you are drunk.

 

Satan is the accuser...

[Moai]

Your parable is SO NOT true. Unfortunatelly many Christians think this ways too, so some of them deserted, but those who are lost sheeps, God will find them back, no one can escape:laugh:

After accept Jesus Christ (that means real heartly repent, decide to obey God), he will send Holy Spirit to you. When you have it, some bad habbits you did before, now naturally you will feel no interest in it anymore. and somethings you need to pratice on daily basis. like forgiveness.

 

But all sin, and continue to, isn't that true? There are famous televangelists who repeat the same sin over and over again. The one sin that is not forgivable is unbelief, is that not so?

 

To put it another way, if Hitler had found Jesus right before he died, he would be in Heaven. Yet someone who dedicated himself to helping the less fortunate but didn't give his life to Jesus goes to hell. We are not saved by works, but through faith, right?

 

when a person offened you, you not only did not pay back, but also you forgive him and bless him, if you choose forgiveness, then you are one more step closer to God or heaven. If you don't choose forgiveness, you are one step further from God. every choices you make is important. It is not like what you said 'ONE TIME DEAL'. through these choices God will shape you, make you more loving, caring and mature. If you once accepted Jesus, but turn around still go your own old way, then I am afraid you won't go to heaven like you think you should do.

 

I don't necessarily think I should go to heaven. I don't believe in heaven, so in my mind there is no place to go to.

 

Are you saying that salvation is conditional? I thought "once saved always saved". If that is not so, then Satan can tempt people away from Jesus, even though Jesus himself said that he has pwer over Satan. Why would Jesus allow this. if one gives his life to Jesus at one point, why would Jesus then abandon said person?

 

If someone offends me I usually don't care--actually, I don't think I have been "offended" in quite a long time.

[lovelorcet]

Satan is the accuser...

 

By disagreeing with you and pointing out that your arguments are not coherent the only logical assumption can be that I am satan...

 

Let me bust your bubble here... There is no such thing as satan.

[Moai]

There are Three Heavens...

You have read so many scriptures that make mention of the Third Heaven so you know it does exist...

 

Mormons call them terrestrial, telestial, and clestial, I think.

 

I'll list a few.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the *third heaven.

 

Revelation 8:10

And the *third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

 

Revelation 12:4

And his tail drew the *third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

Revelation 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the *first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

WE HAVE MENTION OF THE FIRST AND THIRD HEAVEN...

THE *FIRST HEAVEN IS MADE OF THE:

 

ATMOSPHERE

TROPOSPHERE

STRATOSPHERE

MESOSPHERE

IONOSPHERE

EXOSPHERE

 

FROM THE EARTH UP TO APPROX. 600 MILES IN SPACE

FROM THERE UP ANOTHER APPROX. 600 MILES IN SPACE UPWARDS

QUASARS HAVE BEEN DISCOVERED 80 - 85 MILLION LIGHT YEARS FROM EARTH

 

<6 TRILLION MILES IS THE DISTANCE OF A LIGHT YEAR>

APPROX... DISTANCE IS 185 TRILLION BILLIIN MILES...AT IS 95% TO THE END OF THE SECOND HEAVEN...

THE END OF THE COSMOS...

THE HUBBLE HAS A LENSE TO SEE THAT FAR...IT IS SHORT ONLY

5% OF SIGHT TO SEE THE GATES OF HEAVEN INTO THE

*THIRD HEAVEN... (Kinda like the Tower of Babble)

Talk about no generation will have known and seen as much... we are it.

If we have too much more time here... We will watch what goes on the Third Heaven...

(Just as the tower of Babble not permissible)

 

I read somewhere that our sun will burn out in the next 4 or 5 billion years, so I doubt we'd ever get to see it.

_______________________________________________________________

HELL ...begins with Hades... in Hades there is a comfort side

Paradise... together in one place...separated...

As explained in the story of the Rich man in Hell and Lazarus in Paradise.

 

Hades is a Greek mythological idea. In Greek mythoology, everyone goes there.

 

Luke 16: 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

Since the Cross...

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led *Captivity *Captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Sacrifice of blood and bulls is no atonement for sin...it only covered sin.

 

Ok. I am not sure why you are quoting this exactly.

 

Hebrews 10:4

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

 

I agree with this. Any sacrifice is barbaric.

 

After the Cross.

Those that Loved God waited on Jesus… He took the souls of Paradise to the Third Heaven.... rendering the comfort side of Hades the Paradise side

*Closed... Paradise is now in the *Third Heaven.... Jesus opened the Gate and made it possible...

 

The Hell side of Hades is still open for the business of suffering... It is a holding jail.

Those in Hell now … they too must stand before Christ in the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

The afterlife sure is complex.

 

Romans 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

 

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

THE JUST AND THE UNJUST WILL BE MEASURED BY HIS DEEDS...

EACH WILL RECIEVE HIS REWARD ACCORDINGLY.

 

Ok, so we are not saved by grace through faith, but rather by our works.

 

Matthew11: 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

 

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the Day of Judgment, than for thee.

 

WHY IS JUDGMENT FOR SODOM MORE TOLERABLE THAN FOR CAPERNAUM?

SODOM WAS BEFORE CHRIST.... THEY HAD NOT HEARD OF HIM....

THERE ARE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT, JUST AS REWARDS...

 

FOR EXAMPLE.... SOME LIVE ALL THEIR LIVES WORKING FOR THE LORD; THEY ARE SAVED AND HAVE DENIED THEMSELVES MUCH IN JESUS NAME SAKE.

 

OTHERS MAY FIND JESUS ON THEIR DEATH BED, NEVER HAVING DONE A THING IN THE NAME OF JESUS....

 

With only one shot on earth, I am not denying myself anything. In Jesus' name or anyone else's.

 

SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT FROM GOD. YET THERE ARE CROWNS TO EARN IN JESUS NAME...REWARDS.... THERE WILL BE THOSE WITH NO CROWN TO OFFER UNTO THE LORD.

 

Not so. If it were really a gift, I would get it no matter what I did. I am required to ignore everything I see and understand in order to reveive it. "Gift" does not imply quid pro quo, as salvation does.

 

THE FINAL PENITENIARY.... GAHANNA...THE LAKE of Fire or HELL

The Judgment at the Great White Throne

 

11 And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

13 And the sea gave up the dead, which were in it; and DEATH AND HELL DELIVERED UP THE DEAD, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

DEATH AS IN ... DEAD- WITHOUT CHRIST.... THESE IN HELL (HADES) are brought up from Hades to stand before the Great White Throne of Judgment… to be judged and sentenced to what level of degree of punishment for all eternity.. After Judgment they are sent back to the eternal prison Hell (or Gahanna)... where each individual will serve out his or her degree of punishment for all eternity...

 

Again second death up from Hell judged back down to the pit- second death... die twice.

 

No offense, but that is so nutty I don't know where to begin. Does it sound fair that for something I do in my 80 some odd years on Earth 9if I'm lucky) I spend ETERNITY in punishment? The justice we humans have developed is, "let the punishment fit the crime." We also have laws (in the West, anyway) against cruel and unusual punishment. Doesn't an eternity of torment because of a thought crime seem excessive to you? It does to me.

 

I have done some nice things in my life, I have also done some not-so-nice things. When I am being judged, if they don't balance out, I go to a lak of fire forever? Let's say that they all balance out except for the fact that I took my sister's lunch money once. So I go to a lake of fire forever because I was $.45 short?

 

 

Satan was probably sick the Day Christ Died on the Cross. Up until that time.

 

Satan can get sick? If Satan can get sick, can he also die? How can an invisible superbeing get sick? Doesn't Satan cause illness in humans? And if that is so, how can Satan be so inept that he gets sick from his own creations? And if he is that inept, why fear him?

 

I have never heard of Satan being sick before. There is no scripture for this, so how do you come to this conclusion?

 

Satan held partial captivity over the righteous in the Paradise side of Hades.

They would never leave there; there was no life beyond that place.

And they could look across the void and witness the suffering of others.

 

Christ made all things new and set Captivity Captive Free.

Those Saints of old looked forward to the Cross;

as we today look back on it.

 

God Bless*

 

Thanks again for the belssings, but the whole afterlife thing reads like really bad science fiction. To me, anyway.

[quankanne]

I have said it before and I will say it again, love (between a man and a woman, as there is more than 1 kind of love) is nothing more than a biochemical program set up to bond two people together to allow for the care-taking of their progeny.

 

:laugh: I was gonna rib you for being unromantic, but later read your post describing your work as a scientist, so I am beginning to understand your distaste for the "warm fuzzies" that religion and spirituality seem to be comprised of.

 

which makes it that much harder to help you understand why someone would happily embrace the unknown without attempting to analyze it to pieces … we do it because we feel that call "home," to a spiritual place where we acknowledge God as font and summit of our belief and of our call. We find it hard to explain because there are no words that can capture what we feel and why, and to what depth – maybe the closest thing would be is when your kids are born? Because at that moment, you realize that you, small and insignificant entity that you are, have just touched the face of eternity through that one act of conception. You're awed, and humbled, by the very fact of that birth, and for that split second, you fail to intellectualize it because you realize there's no need to do anything other than soak it in.

 

this is how we feel about God, that we understand we don't particularly need to intellectualize Him, or our feelings for him, but that we are just asked to be. Because even though He asks a lot of us in the sense that we are called to be holy as He is holy, we understand that what we have with him is the purest of love; that by our mere existence we merit his love – no biochemical trances, no raging hormones, no sense of obligation toward us, but simply loving.

 

which is why something like secular humanism is faulty: There's no allowance for such a pure relationship because secular humanism is so self-centered.

[Moai]

I have said it before and I will say it again, love (between a man and a woman, as there is more than 1 kind of love) is nothing more than a biochemical program set up to bond two people together to allow for the care-taking of their progeny.

 

:laugh: I was gonna rib you for being unromantic, but later read your post describing your work as a scientist, so I am beginning to understand your distaste for the "warm fuzzies" that religion and spirituality seem to be comprised of.

 

which makes it that much harder to help you understand why someone would happily embrace the unknown without attempting to analyze it to pieces … we do it because we feel that call "home," to a spiritual place where we acknowledge God as font and summit of our belief and of our call. We find it hard to explain because there are no words that can capture what we feel and why, and to what depth – maybe the closest thing would be is when your kids are born? Because at that moment, you realize that you, small and insignificant entity that you are, have just touched the face of eternity through that one act of conception. You're awed, and humbled, by the very fact of that birth, and for that split second, you fail to intellectualize it because you realize there's no need to do anything other than soak it in.

 

this is how we feel about God, that we understand we don't particularly need to intellectualize Him, or our feelings for him, but that we are just asked to be. Because even though He asks a lot of us in the sense that we are called to be holy as He is holy, we understand that what we have with him is the purest of love; that by our mere existence we merit his love – no biochemical trances, no raging hormones, no sense of obligation toward us, but simply loving.

 

which is why something like secular humanism is faulty: There's no allowance for such a pure relationship because secular humanism is so self-centered.

 

I would argue that believers do analyze it to pieces. How do you know god is holy? How do you know that he is asking anything of you? How do you know god is love in the first place? How do you know we owe him love just because we are here?

 

I for one have no idea why there is matter as opposed to not. I also don't really think about it much--if at all. I also don't care why I am here. Meaning is determined by the individual, and what gives my life meaning may be different from what gives yours meaning.

 

I haven't seen the phrase "secular humanism" in a while...

[TheDC]

Please explain this. Because I have worked with the SPMI population in a forensic mental facility, I distinguish between the two types of delusion rather strongly. Seems to me you don't even understand what I mean when I say I see divinity all around me. I see it in the face of children. In the acts of goodwill towards other people. I see it when strangers reach out to each other out of no other motivation than the desire to connect to someone else.

 

That is divinity and God, to me. Call me delusional if you want, but I see no difference in your post from the dogmatic thinking which you purport to reject.

 

I feel sorry for you that you believe that being decent to another human can only be enforced by some mythical celestial being. I on the other hand, believe in the innate decency of humans and the fundamental principals of humanism. I have entered into a personal contract with my fellow man to be a decent and good person. I don't need to do the right thing because I either fear damnation or selfishly seek a reward from some divinity, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

Your belief belittles the acts of decent humans by laying the motivation and the impetus of being a moral person and kindness in the hands of some non-existent being. I, on the other hand, give full credit to humans for their acts of compassion and decency. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking so little of your fellow man.

[Love Hurts]

I

 

And those who don't perish. So, if I interpret this correctly, I will face enternal damnation because of what I believed, or thought. My actions are meanginless. Not only does that fly in the face of common sense, it is unfair.

 

All of the people who happened to be born in India, and are therefore Hindu and lead devout lives of faith and devotion go to hell, but someone here who is less than ethical but believes gets in. Doesn't that sound unfair to you? Why would a god be so unfair? Why wouldn't a god be AT LEAST as nice as I am, and I wouldn't do that.

 

Beyond that, why did god have to sacrifice his son in the first place? He's god, right? He could just give everyone a pass if he wanted to. Is it because he demands blood? Why is he so bloodthirsty?

 

God describes himself as jealous. That is not seen as a laudable human characteristic. It's a fault, actually. If god has faults, is he really god at all?

 

 

Moslem – Mohammed- Allah- No Son named Jesus.

Buddhist – A stone God- Idol

Hindus – images icons

False idols

 

Which one of these gods died for you and for me?

Who amongst them suffered and His blood was shed claiming us worthy of His sacrifice?

 

Jesus is the God that died for us…

Now its up to man to hear and to recognize Him;

all will have heard…and have made a decision for or against Him.

How could eternal damnation be unfair? Consider how many people absolutely hate God? People that want nothing to do with Him? Lets look at Madeline O’Hare a self proclaimed Atheist… she took prayer out of school… and aided in the count of Atheists we have today… she hates God… and has spent her lifes work trying to snuff Him out of minds, hearts and existence… Now see how fair Christ is?

 

If that Atheist woman in her dying breath would call on Jesus He would claim her;

as His own…and eternal life is hers with the God she sought to abolish in her lifes work.

But if she did not repent… then…. she will meet the god she spent her life working for.

We are all nice people. Almost none of us will say we are not. We just think we are nice.

Yet can we see we are sinners?

If we cannot… we are prideful and pride is and attribute of Satan…

He was cast out of Heaven for it and God Hates Pride.

 

Free passports to Heaven? Satan is not aloud in Heaven he was cast out.

Or it would not be Heaven. It would be just like it is here on earth.

Realize people follow Satan on earth, they become corrupt and vile, vicious, violent.,

and are capable of murder and all kinds of file things… thats what Satan breeds.

Those are not permitted in Heaven... It takes a repentive heart to seek forgiveness of ones sins and claim Jesus as Lord. Again God knows a mans heart.

 

God is not blood thirsty He is fair and just, merciful to men. The blood covering for sin began in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned and God slew an animal and clothed them in their nakedness. In the Old Testament…God required more than fruit or berries as an offering of ones sin…How would we know how grave sin is to God if we could pick berries and say here take this as my asking of forgiveness? Blood for sin is more value... Sin is costly... To show importance of sin… He required a man give up one of his finest animals, no spot or blemish not maimed or ready to die of old age.. Give it up as a burnt offering…

To God that was only a covering for sin but did not remove sin. Jesus had to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb on the cross.. His own blood …The Son of God had to shed His blood for men on earth… Jesus who is without sin… took upon Himself the sins of men..

 

He is a Jealous God… He does not want you to worship Stones or Images or Icons,

Or any false Gods…He wants the Praise… how hard is that? Yet we are not to be jealous… why? Jealous is coveting… if we covet our neighbors gain we can not see our own blessings and that will hurt us in the long run…its for our own protection … not to be jealous. How can He be Jealous? We are His.

Consider if you had a child and you loved it dearly…it grew up under your unconditional love…and one day your child curses you and leaves you… finding some other parent to love… God is Jealous like that. Children are covered under free gift of grace.

If a baby dies… it does not go to Hell… If a toddler or a young person dies; its not to Hell.

They are covered by free gift of grace… until they reach a mature age of mentality to make an earnest decision to reject God and have nothing to do with Him… only then does He let go… What age is that? As maturity varies amongst each individual…

It could be 18 – 21... God knows each mans heart and mind.

 

If I make the chocolate chip cookies I decide what to do with them… I am the God of the cookies … the good ones I will put in a glass container for all to look at their perfection and enjoy their beauty. The cracked broken burnt ones I will feed to the dog.

I’m in charge of my cookies...I am the God of the cookies... God made us He is in charge of us…we may not like it yet He is God as we are not. We are His creations. He loves us. He died for us to prove His love and He thinks we are worthy.

Now we can we love Him…our creator? Or can we hate Him? Our Choice?

 

Yes we are all nice people… but how nice are we really? There is Jesus that sacrificed all… and we want more… if he were sitting in town hall telling us He is the Son of God again today... how many would ignore Him and laugh…

Jesus did His part… He humbly went through us ugly satanic people once…

How can I say that? Satan is on earth; Satan was on earth while the Son of God was being sacrificed… we know Satan had a good time and enjoyed it thoroughly… Why?

Jesus cast Lucifer out of Heaven …There was a War in Heaven. Lucifer did not go willingly.

 

Now Jesus waits for an earnest heart to seek Him out…

That sacrificial Lamb to the Cross is no more…

He returns to earth like a Lion.

 

God Bless*

[TheDC]

Ok loveret so again since its based on Bible and science its useless.

We must discount the Bible… well this is foolish to you. Because of ;scripture ....at least I know where your coming from..

 

Thank You... I lappreciate understanding.

 

It is not the domain of science to prove a negative.

 

It isn't our job to disprove something that doesn't exist. It is your job to prove that it does. Quoting the bible that makes a simple reference to a "Third Heaven" when that third heaven hasn't even been defined and then trying to pound that square peg into the round hole of scientific observation doesn't a coherent theory make.

 

You can't simply lift passages from the bible and then arbitrarily assign values to them in this manner. Just to make them fit. This is the pricipal fault with ID and any other pseudoscientific theories espoused by the superstitious.

 

Your science is so poor that I can't even argue against it because it simply isn't a statement that makes sense. It isn't valid. It would be like asking "why are unicorns hollow?" Just because the question can be posed and a theory presented doesn't make the question valid.

[quankanne]

I feel sorry for you that you believe that being decent to another human can only be enforced by some mythical celestial being. … Your belief belittles the acts of decent humans by laying the motivation and the impetus of being a moral person and kindness in the hands of some non-existent being. I, on the other hand, give full credit to humans for their acts of compassion and decency. You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking so little of your fellow man.

 

we don't feel that "some mythical celestial being" enforces our behavior, but rather enhances what we know to be good, because we see our goodness as a reflection of His goodness, and his love for us is the model for our love toward our fellow man. How is that belittling our fellow man, when we strive to look at him with love? We're not looking for brownie points when we do so, but see his intrinsic worth as that child of God.

 

I on the other hand, believe in the innate decency of humans and the fundamental principals of humanism. I have entered into a personal contract with my fellow man to be a decent and good person. I don't need to do the right thing because I either fear damnation or selfishly seek a reward from some divinity, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

why is it the "right" thing to do, when secularism doesn't exactly call for brotherly love, but is more of a nod to self-love? If it is the "right" thing, who decides the value of "right"? Does it make one feel better because he perceives himself to be kind, just and generous, or is it spurred by something more deeper, more spiritual?

[Love Hurts]

Which presupposes that I, or anyone else should be looking for Jesus. I must somehow belive in him in the first place in order to look for him. I mean, why look for something that isn't there?

Let's say I am supposed to be looking for a watch. I have never owned a watch, so I spend no time looking for my lost watch because I never had it to begin with. But, if I believe that I had a watch, I'd look for it.

My point being there is no reason for me to look for Jesus unless I already believe in his divinity.

I like to thik I am on the right track, too. I used to be a believer, but the more I learned the more I realized I couldn't accept it.

Why would Jesus be deliberately confusing? Doesn't he want everyone to go to heaven? Why not just speak plainly? Those questions are rhetorical, by the way.

It's great that you get so much joy and meaning from these stories, but I don't think that they are all that special. I like the parables in Zen Buddhism much more interesting. The ones I understand, anyway. Not that I am a Zen Buddhist by any stretch of the imagination.

Or not. Isn't it possible that your interpretation is wrong, and that you have incomplete information? The bible that we have was assembled by men, and they made decisions about what was important and what wasn't. You are trusting that they didn't make a mistake, and also that what they decided what you didn't need to know wasn't important. You are trusting these men with your everlasting soul, by the way.

Just as a Hindu who is devout "knows" he is doing the right thing, you belive that he isn't. And he thinks the same of you. You can't both be right, but you can both be wrong.

 

To question and seek Him out, to try to understand His word. To reason is it true or not.

To believe in His word that He did die on the Cross for our sins... That Jesus is God.

To understand that through Salvation of the heart any and all are welcome into the fold.

 

Do we question creation?

Do we question our existence? If we do? We can question is there a God? If we can question and we can hear of and seek out we can consider.

We can decide and choose.

 

Often times men get lost in the maze of denominations and gods or God.

Too much knowledge can be just as bad as not enough.

The simplest thing to know is what children learn in Sunday School… Jesus died on the cross… that we may have an option to believe in him, and who so ever believeth in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life.

 

Jesus spoke in parables… to cause you to seek Him out.

His word is like a seed consider this parable and think of the seed as the word of Gods.

 

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

Some hear and not hear. Some hear and understand.

I can read the word for myself and understand it… again the most important word is on salvation… I can read repent, I can read the Ten Commandments that tell me what sin is.

My heart knows I am not wrong. I know He lives… no doubts…

 

As for my visions... they are priceless and dear to my heart..

At the moment I do not feel compared to cast them out to be tramled on and torn to shreds as lies... So I choose to keep them near and dear.

However this man had a vision of Jesus and he tells his story... it may disclaimed it or not.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=648563944666093503

 

 

God Bless*

[TheDC]

we don't feel that "some mythical celestial being" enforces our behavior, but rather enhances what we know to be good, because we see our goodness as a reflection of His goodness, and his love for us is the model for our love toward our fellow man. How is that belittling our fellow man, when we strive to look at him with love? We're not looking for brownie points when we do so, but see his intrinsic worth as that child of God.

 

So basically you are saying that you don't do it because it is the right thing to do you do it to parrot some mythical being? How is that any better? That allows you to make up any interpretation and do the most horrendous things in the name of an illusion. It absolves you of any personal responsibility. Rather than acting based off an informed rational humanistic decision, you'd rather quote outdated mythology to support your bigotry. I know what is right and wrong you don't seem capable of making that informed decision for yourself.

 

why is it the "right" thing to do, when secularism doesn't exactly call for brotherly love, but is more of a nod to self-love? If it is the "right" thing, who decides the value of "right"? Does it make one feel better because he perceives himself to be kind, just and generous, or is it spurred by something more deeper, more spiritual?

 

To lay the impetus for fundamental decency at the feet of a mythical being is to ignore the beauty of the human spirit. The fundamental principal of secular humanism is to uphold the fundamental rights of all people. Faith based beliefs are fundamentally opposed to this principal. Faith based beliefs are racist, sexist, bigoted and exclusionary at their core especially the big three. They stand for repression and ingnorance and shouldn't be tolerated in any progressive nation.

[TheDC]

Moslem – Mohammed- Allah- No Son named Jesus.

Buddhist – A stone God- Idol

Hindus – images icons

False idols

 

Which one of these gods died for you and for me?

Who amongst them suffered and His blood was shed claiming us worthy of His sacrifice?

 

Jesus is the God that died for us…

Now its up to man to hear and to recognize Him;

 

God Bless*

 

What unbelievable hypocrisy. On the one hand you present no evidence for your particular flavour of superstition and on the other you deny other gods whose validity according to your own criteria are as great as your own god.

 

Prove to me that the gods of the Hindu are any more or less real than your own god. I'm sure that there are a billion hindu who would disagree with you and be able to quote their scripture till the cows come home that their gods are real and that it is you that is mistaken and that your god is false.

 

And then you have the unmitigated gall of ending your nonsense with a blessing. You bigoted, narrow-minded, self-deluded fool. You are the perfect example of why this sort of nonsense shouldn't be tolerated, that your mysticism and superstition should have died out long ago and has no place in the modern world. You are evil in my book.

[quankanne]

So basically you are saying that you don't do it because it is the right thing to do you do it to parrot some mythical being? How is that any better? That allows you to make up any interpretation and do the most horrendous things in the name of an illusion. It absolves you of any personal responsibility. Rather than acting based off an informed rational humanistic decision, you'd rather quote outdated mythology to support your bigotry. I know what is right and wrong you don't seem capable of making that informed decision for yourself.

 

…

 

To lay the impetus for fundamental decency at the feet of a mythical being is to ignore the beauty of the human spirit. The fundamental principal of secular humanism is to uphold the fundamental rights of all people. Faith based beliefs are fundamentally opposed to this principal. Faith based beliefs are racist, sexist, bigoted and exclusionary at their core especially the big three. They stand for repression and ingnorance and shouldn't be tolerated in any progressive nation.

 

forgive my incredulity, but where exactly are you getting your information? Do you understand that religious beliefs (at least the mainstream ones) don't refute the beauty of the human spirit but uphold it because believers understand that it's a gift from their God?

 

it sounds like your sense of "right" and "wrong" are eerily similar to mine, except I choose to give credit to a supernatural role model. That's not parroting any more than someone from your camp, who believes as you do.

 

to uphold "fundamental rights" is to see the intrinsic value of the human person … if not based on some kind of higher law, wouldn't "doing right" have some kind of arbitrary value?

 

That allows you to make up any interpretation and do the most horrendous things in the name of an illusion. It absolves you of any personal responsibility.

 

I don't deny that men do horrendous things all in God's name, but those are the exception, not the rule, in a body of believers. And those hatemongers aren't absolved of personal responsibility, they just conveniently overlook their social and spiritual responsibilty toward fellow man. However, we've got to put the shoe on the other foot – those kinds of people aren't just limited to those who claim religion. Someone with a poisoned mind and heart is that way regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. There just happen to be evil people out there with no regard to others, period.

 

I know what is right and wrong you don't seem capable of making that informed decision for yourself.

 

:laugh: I just love how full of self-righteousness your posts are as you argue your case. Let's just call it a truce and say that a person can only make informed decisions for himself, based on his personal belief system. You rely on worldliness, I rely on something else, and more power to the both of us ...

[blind_otter]

I feel sorry for you that you believe that being decent to another human can only be enforced by some mythical celestial being.

 

That's not what I believe at all. I believe that those acts ARE the "mythical celestial being." Nothing enforces it. It just exists, beyond all logic. Kindness and comfort and caring. The good stuff.

 

I on the other hand, believe in the innate decency of humans and the fundamental principals of humanism. I have entered into a personal contract with my fellow man to be a decent and good person. I don't need to do the right thing because I either fear damnation or selfishly seek a reward from some divinity, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

So do I.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself for thinking so little of your fellow man.

 

That's not what I believe. So how can you say what I believe belittles anything, if you don't even understand that? Assumptions.

 

Why on Earth are you so angry? I oozes from your posts. I feel it when I read your words. Why does someone else's choice make you so angry?

[Moai]

Moslem – Mohammed- Allah- No Son named Jesus.

Buddhist – A stone God- Idol

Hindus – images icons

False idols

 

False because you say so. They don't think so.

 

Which one of these gods died for you and for me?

Who amongst them suffered and His blood was shed claiming us worthy of His sacrifice?

 

Well, none, because their dogma doesn't require it. Are you saying that I should be a Christian because it is the weirdest religion?

 

Jesus is the God that died for us…

Now its up to man to hear and to recognize Him;

all will have heard…and have made a decision for or against Him.

How could eternal damnation be unfair? Consider how many people absolutely hate God? People that want nothing to do with Him? Lets look at Madeline O’Hare a self proclaimed Atheist… she took prayer out of school… and aided in the count of Atheists we have today… she hates God… and has spent her lifes work trying to snuff Him out of minds, hearts and existence… Now see how fair Christ is?

 

She didn't hate god, she didn't believe that he exists. I don't either. You can't hate something that doesn't exist. She also recognized that most believers are oppressive, and that forcing prayer on children--of any denomination--is not only unconstitutional, but immoral and unfair.

 

I find it interesting that you give her credit for how many atheists we have today. Perhaps you don't think for yourself, but I for one do and I am an atheist because of my own research and thought on the subject. I made up my own mind. I don't care what Ms. O'Hair believed or anyone else believed.

 

Moreover, she didn't want to snuff him out of minds, she just didn't want to have others' religious beliefs forced upon her. I don't, either. If you had Islam forced on you, you'd be upset, right? Well, atheists see your religion as the same as Islam. All religions are equally invalid. Christians are the only group I am aware of who feel that they are being oppressed when they are forbidden to force their religion on others.

 

Yes, god is unfair in this instance. Jesus said to turn the other cheek. Why not turn the other cheek in this instance? Aren't you supposed to forgive and bless your enemies? If she is in Hell, then god doesn't follow his own rules.

 

If that Atheist woman in her dying breath would call on Jesus He would claim her;

as His own…and eternal life is hers with the God she sought to abolish in her lifes work.

But if she did not repent… then…. she will meet the god she spent her life working for.

We are all nice people. Almost none of us will say we are not. We just think we are nice.

Yet can we see we are sinners?

If we cannot… we are prideful and pride is and attribute of Satan…

He was cast out of Heaven for it and God Hates Pride.

 

If god hates, he cannot be entirely good. If he is not entirely good, then I will never worship him. How is he any different than Satan, then? Because he is stronger, he is better?

 

Free passports to Heaven? Satan is not aloud in Heaven he was cast out.

Or it would not be Heaven. It would be just like it is here on earth.

Realize people follow Satan on earth, they become corrupt and vile, vicious, violent.,

and are capable of murder and all kinds of file things… thats what Satan breeds.

Those are not permitted in Heaven... It takes a repentive heart to seek forgiveness of ones sins and claim Jesus as Lord. Again God knows a mans heart.

 

U-huh. So Christians never murder or do horrible things. Right.

 

God is not blood thirsty He is fair and just, merciful to men.

 

Untrue. God favors Abel's blood sacrifice over Cain's one of fruit. In II Kings 2:23-24, children insult a blad man, so god has two bears come out and kill them. 42 children. Let's be completely clear: God killed 42 children because they teased one of his prophets about being bald.

 

Jesus demands that those who do not accept him be brought before him and killed. Luke 19:27

 

And on and on and on.

 

The blood covering for sin began in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned and God slew an animal and clothed them in their nakedness. In the Old Testament…God required more than fruit or berries as an offering of ones sin…How would we know how grave sin is to God if we could pick berries and say here take this as my asking of forgiveness? Blood for sin is more value... Sin is costly... To show importance of sin… He required a man give up one of his finest animals, no spot or blemish not maimed or ready to die of old age.. Give it up as a burnt offering…

To God that was only a covering for sin but did not remove sin. Jesus had to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb on the cross.. His own blood …The Son of God had to shed His blood for men on earth… Jesus who is without sin… took upon Himself the sins of men..

 

Exactly. You just described why I am an atheist-as far as Christianity is concerned. In order for Christianity to be true, the Garden of Eden story MUST be true. Science has shown that the description of Creation in Genesis is not true (forgetting that anyone rational who reads it can tell it is a fairy tale). So, since the Genesis story is not true, there is no need for Jesus. No need for Jesus, Jesus was not god. Common sense dictates that, too, but that is beside the point.

 

He is a Jealous God… He does not want you to worship Stones or Images or Icons,

Or any false Gods…He wants the Praise… how hard is that?

 

So an omnipotent superbeing who knows all and can change everything is so petty that he requires me, a human with about an 80 year life span to "praise" him, and if I don't he will be angry?

 

Yet we are not to be jealous… why? Jealous is coveting… if we covet our neighbors gain we can not see our own blessings and that will hurt us in the long run…its for our own protection … not to be jealous. How can He be Jealous? We are His.

Consider if you had a child and you loved it dearly…it grew up under your unconditional love…and one day your child curses you and leaves you… finding some other parent to love… God is Jealous like that. Children are covered under free gift of grace.

If a baby dies… it does not go to Hell… If a toddler or a young person dies; its not to Hell.

They are covered by free gift of grace… until they reach a mature age of mentality to make an earnest decision to reject God and have nothing to do with Him… only then does He let go… What age is that? As maturity varies amongst each individual…

 

That's not what the Bible says. All men are born into a state of sin, even infants. Therefore, infants go to hell. Look it up. It is a nice idea of yours that they don't, but they do. And ask yourself this: If children are covered by grace until maturity, why do diseases effect children? Isn't sickness punishment for sin?

 

It could be 18 – 21... God knows each mans heart and mind.

 

If I make the chocolate chip cookies I decide what to do with them… I am the God of the cookies … the good ones I will put in a glass container for all to look at their perfection and enjoy their beauty. The cracked broken burnt ones I will feed to the dog.

I’m in charge of my cookies...I am the God of the cookies... God made us He is in charge of us…we may not like it yet He is God as we are not. We are His creations. He loves us. He died for us to prove His love and He thinks we are worthy.

Now we can we love Him…our creator? Or can we hate Him? Our Choice?

 

But I don't have a choice. God knows everything, including whether or not I will believe in him. So why put me through it in the first place?

 

Yes we are all nice people… but how nice are we really? There is Jesus that sacrificed all… and we want more… if he were sitting in town hall telling us He is the Son of God again today... how many would ignore Him and laugh…

Jesus did His part… He humbly went through us ugly satanic people once…

How can I say that? Satan is on earth; Satan was on earth while the Son of God was being sacrificed… we know Satan had a good time and enjoyed it thoroughly… Why?

Jesus cast Lucifer out of Heaven …There was a War in Heaven. Lucifer did not go willingly.

 

Still more weirdness. No offense, but your religion is really, really strange. I am amazed that someone in the 21st century actually believes it. Not only that, but tere are millions out there who do, too.

 

Now Jesus waits for an earnest heart to seek Him out…

That sacrificial Lamb to the Cross is no more…

He returns to earth like a Lion.

 

God Bless*

 

I'm sure he'll be here any second now.

[quankanne]

Faith based beliefs are racist, sexist, bigoted and exclusionary at their core especially the big three. They stand for repression and ingnorance and shouldn't be tolerated in any progressive nation

 

interesting that you mention this – I read a document by a Catholic bishop that addresses this very thing www.dioceseoftyler.org/bishop.htm:

 

"Secularism as an ideology, largely animated by undisciplined consumerism, presents a most insidious threat to our human dignity, to our holiness and lasting happiness," writes Bishop Álvaro Corrada, sj, in Following Jesus in the Diocese of Tyler.

 

"Distracted and deceived, we are at risk of being seduced with the promise of happiness made by our own natural power. Secularism as an ideology declares the idea of God and religion to be misguided, laughable if not irrelevant, and even deceptive. Consequently, supernatural beliefs are not held as the keys to understanding the human person and the world. Rather, religious truths are segregated from matters of daily life, governance and reason. Divine Providence guiding and caring in love for humanity and the world is considered superfluous. The human person’s loving transcendent relation to God accomplished through Jesus Christ is simply denied.

 

… "Proponents contend '… that man is an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history,'" he writes, adding that "unrestrained consumerism, a defining characteristic of current American culture, is an articulation of ideological secularism that professes a 'present-day atheism … which looks for man’s autonomy through his economic and social emancipation. It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better life on earth."

 

To a believer, secularism is frustrating because it promises "that true happiness will be found with ever-greater production, possession and consumption of the things of this world," Corrada writes. "Within this secular ideology, consumerism claims to be vitality itself, the very activity of life, its meaning, value, and purpose. To produce, possess, and expend wealth, and then to produce more becomes the cycle of life. … The value of the human person is the measure of his wealth, his ability to produce wealth, or merely his accumulated possessions."

 

Therefore, he says, the call to holiness is the call to happiness, for "we all want to live happily, even before this desire is fully articulated … this is because only in God will we find the truth and happiness for which we never stop searching.

 

"… When happiness is distorted by secular ideology to draw us away from the beatitudes to a life of instant gratification, the deepest human longing of our hearts and minds is threatened with destruction. As disciples, the more closely we approach an intimate union with the Most Holy Trinity through our imitation of Christ Jesus in this earthly life, the more our holiness progresses," and the closer we become to true happiness, the bishop writes.

 

I think to a man, this is what a believer recognizes even if his mind cannot make coherent the thought … he understands that he is called toward something more refined, and that only through God is he complete.

 

and this is why a non-believer's arguments seem so shallow in light of a deep-seated belief in God: you're fixed on the here and now, based on things you can only define by logic or empirical evidence, or ideas that you somehow claim as your own.

[quankanne]

I'm sure he'll be here any second now.

 

and have I got the perfect bumper sticker for you:

 

JESUS IS COMING

LOOK BUSY

 

:p

[Moai]

Faith based beliefs are racist, sexist, bigoted and exclusionary at their core especially the big three. They stand for repression and ingnorance and shouldn't be tolerated in any progressive nation

 

interesting that you mention this – I read a document by a Catholic bishop that addresses this very thing www.dioceseoftyler.org/bishop.htm:

 

"Secularism as an ideology, largely animated by undisciplined consumerism, presents a most insidious threat to our human dignity, to our holiness and lasting happiness," writes Bishop Álvaro Corrada, sj, in Following Jesus in the Diocese of Tyler.

 

I am sure that it is a threat to him, as tithes in the plate get ever smaller. I have no idea what secularism has to do with rampant consumerism. Is he claiming that Christians don't consume things at the same rate as others? I am an athiest, and I am less materialistic (in the consumer sense) than all of the believers I know.

 

"Distracted and deceived, we are at risk of being seduced with the promise of happiness made by our own natural power. Secularism as an ideology declares the idea of God and religion to be misguided, laughable if not irrelevant, and even deceptive. Consequently, supernatural beliefs are not held as the keys to understanding the human person and the world.

 

So astrology, numerology, ghosts, water divination, clairvoyance, ESP, remote viewing et. al. are the keys to understanding the human person?

 

Rather, religious truths are segregated from matters of daily life, governance and reason. Divine Providence guiding and caring in love for humanity and the world is considered superfluous. The human person’s loving transcendent relation to God accomplished through Jesus Christ is simply denied.

 

As are all the others. And he is begging the question: who says his truths are the right ones? And I haven't seen the caring and love of divine providence anywhere. As usual, god gets all of the credit but noe of the blame.

 

… "Proponents contend '… that man is an end to himself, and the sole maker, with supreme control, of his own history,'" he writes, adding that "unrestrained consumerism, a defining characteristic of current American culture, is an articulation of ideological secularism that professes a 'present-day atheism … which looks for man’s autonomy through his economic and social emancipation. It holds that religion, of its very nature, thwarts such emancipation by raising man’s hopes in a future life, thus both deceiving him and discouraging him from working for a better life on earth."

 

I don't understand this "end to himself" stuff. What does that mean exactly?

 

Unrestrained consumerism has nothing to do with atheism. It is great that he wants to equate them, but he's wrong. And actually, unrestrained consumerism keeps the economy going and gives people jobs. I am glad that I am rich and not poor, but that has nothing to do with my atheism. And it is exactly the "hopes for a future life" that is so dangerous. People who believe in a better life after death fly planes into buildings and blow themselves up on buses. Christians don't do this, yet, because of consumerism. "I don't want to blow up this bus, if I did I couldn't enjoy my iPod."

 

To a believer, secularism is frustrating because it promises "that true happiness will be found with ever-greater production, possession and consumption of the things of this world," Corrada writes. "Within this secular ideology, consumerism claims to be vitality itself, the very activity of life, its meaning, value, and purpose. To produce, possess, and expend wealth, and then to produce more becomes the cycle of life. … The value of the human person is the measure of his wealth, his ability to produce wealth, or merely his accumulated possessions."

 

To an atheist, believers are frustrating because they arrogantly believe that anyone who disagrees with them cannot possibly be happy--"truly happy" (whatever that means). I don't know anyone who thinks the value of the person is based on how much money they have. Who is this guy talking about, exactly? Is he arguing against atheism, or capitalism? I fail to see how an economic system can be against god.

 

Therefore, he says, the call to holiness is the call to happiness, for "we all want to live happily, even before this desire is fully articulated … this is because only in God will we find the truth and happiness for which we never stop searching.

 

According to him and his belief system. I have stopped searching, and I am quite content. In fact, I don't think that I have ever been happier. I can't imagine that I COULD be happier, even. But I probably will be. Looking forward to it.

 

"… When happiness is distorted by secular ideology to draw us away from the beatitudes to a life of instant gratification, the deepest human longing of our hearts and minds is threatened with destruction. As disciples, the more closely we approach an intimate union with the Most Holy Trinity through our imitation of Christ Jesus in this earthly life, the more our holiness progresses," and the closer we become to true happiness, the bishop writes.

 

Uh-huh. I am constantly amazed by the beauty of the world around me, and the intricate nature of living things, and sunsets, and all the rest. I think it is amazing. I have no longing for anything, though.

 

I think to a man, this is what a believer recognizes even if his mind cannot make coherent the thought … he understands that he is called toward something more refined, and that only through God is he complete.

 

and this is why a non-believer's arguments seem so shallow in light of a deep-seated belief in God: you're fixed on the here and now, based on things you can only define by logic or empirical evidence, or ideas that you somehow claim as your own.

 

Or, your belief is so ingrained and automatic that you can no longer think rationally. That "thoughts of your own" dig is hypocritical, because I don't think that a Christian of any stripe has had an original thought for several hundred years.

 

I am also not surprised at all that the other 5 billion people on Earth who don't share in his faith are unhappy materialist consumers. Tibetan monks would take issue with that, probably.

 

Didn't someone say, "Money can't buy happiness" long before this essay?

[lonelybird]

Yes it is a bad thing. It is a form of self delusion, faith is a form of non-thinking it isn't a way of understanding the world it stands in fundamental opposition to modernity, the scientific method and rationalism it is divisive and dangerous.

 

Secular humanism is the only, I repeat ONLY, salvation for humanity and the faster we put all of these silly superstitions behind us the better off we will be. Until then we will be shackled with these stone age beliefs whose time has certainly passed.

 

We lock people up in mental asylums for being delusional yet people who have blind faith are allowed to run about free and are accorded special status because of their particular delusion. When you say that you see divinity around you this is a form of delusion it is as defined in the dictionary a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

 

I especially like the American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary definition "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness".

please don't burn me, I am not a witch:rolleyes: .....

 

A big difference between believer and 'non-believer' as I observed so far, is insult language and anger, where does that come from?

 

Can a person with well-developed left brain say a person with a well-developed right brain an idol or stupid?

[lonelybird]

You see and this is where the whole thing falls apart. The rest is just gibberish. No empirical evidence no logical conclusions. This is why they call it "blind faith" because it ignores the main fact that the rest is just superstitious nonsense.

 

It amuses me that people of faith claim that god gave us free will and intelligence yet they adamantly refuse to apply even the smallest ounce of critical thought and logic to the issue.

 

That would have to be the greatest irony of all, that the ones who truly believe and claim that free will was divinely granted don't use it and those that do know it's all just superstition.

same back to you. why don't you use your heart?

[lonelybird]

Being a generous or charitable has personal, psychological and societal benefits. People who are able to intergtrate into a society and are favorably looked upon have benefits.

 

Our brain rewards us with a shot of dopamine when we do certain things which are "good" and that feels good.

 

Why does our brain reward us with certain things not another?

Why will we feel hurt when we hurt others; and why will we feel good when we treat others good?

I've heard of those dopamines theory, but why do they function that way?

[lonelybird]

There are defiantly a few aspect of religion which are beneficial but there are a whole lot more which are destructive.

 

I am of the opinion that the good does not out weigh the bad as I look at the present and the future.

How will science promote society welfare? and improve people's moral level and humanity? if all things are material, what purpose is as human beings? just live, and possess things? won't this promote selfish and self-centered benefit? Science seek truth in the material world. Religion seek truth in the spiritual world. two different realms. you cannot know the spiritual world through science.