Wanted divorce, wife changed ways

[Gunny376]

Lots of activity here today. Uhm, rather than try to respond to individual posts let me tell another story...

 

My mom confided in me alot of what has happened in her past. Things I never knew and she never wanted to tell but since I had found myself in the mess I was in she told me some stories. She knows where I am because she has been here.

 

One story was of when I was a baby. My dad had left her/us in an ugly divorce and she was extemely depressed for a long time. She had thought about suicide a few times but always blew it off. Silly thoughts.

 

So one particular night she was very depressed again and had made up her mind to kill herself. She told me that she heard me moving around in my bed (one year old) and went in to check on me. Seeing me lying there made her realize she couldn't do something stupid like suicide and leave me without a father and a mother. So she says she lived to take care of me. I saved her.

 

I thought about that story today. I put on When You Know by Shawn Colvin and as it played I took out a picture of my wife. I also took out a picture of the OW. And I took out a picture of my son. The theme of the song is that when you know you love someone there is nothing you can do about it. In my little world, it was very fitting.

 

These three pictures represented the three struggles I am having. Three people who are in my life and who love me. The most important? That little boy. He needs me more than the other two do. He needs me like I needed my mom back when she made a tough decision.

 

So I know what I have to do now. Although it would most likely work with the OW it is not something that can happen now. Not today. I will stay with him and that means focusing on my marriage. I will try it, atleast.

 

I had already withdrawn when she decided to draw in. We were both withdrawn from each other for a period of time there. Now I see I should see if things can be worked out in my heart towards my W.

 

It's not about feelings anymore is it? My marriage isn't about two people who are in love and want to grow old together. It isn't about two friends, it is about raising a son. How sad my hopes and dreams fell to something so far from what I wanted marriage to be for me.

 

So, LJ, I'll find some love for my W still hiding somewhere in my heart? Maybe you are right... <chuckle> I just really don't like her right now.

 

Maybe tomorrow will be different.

 

Whooppppss???? :confused:

 

What's that I hear????? :confused:

 

Shhhh! Quiet! Listen!

 

Is that the sound of someone putting on the big boy britches and "manning up"?

 

Well, I'll be damned if it ain't! :eek:

 

You don't see nor hear about that happening to much anymore!

[Gunny376]

I just really don't like her right now.

Maybe tomorrow will be different.

 

I was watching Divorce Court one day, and the judge told the couple:

 

"I've been married fourteen years, and I didn't even like my husband the first six!"

[empty906]

All right---so not all marriages/love stories are so vaunted, but P-L-E-A-S-E do stop reducing some of the feelings these men on these boards may genuinely have developed for another woman to some kind of bio-chemical bizarro lack of reason. Maybe she is the right one, after all, and its the marriage that should really cause certain people to have their heads examined. OE

 

OE, you know you are the odd man out here, don't you? (or odd woman out as it were). The vast majority here has told me that I am to blame because of OW. I should be hung for the atrocities I have commited toward my wife, and I should divorce her before she wises up and leaves me.

 

Not a lot of support there but through it all I was able to clear my head. I won't be taking alot of the advice giving here but some of it was worth gold to me. Those who helped me know who you are and thank you.

 

I will still need help now. I only said I will try to see what can happen with my W. That is a long road to travel guys. Some bridges were burned and will take time to rebuild. Give us the time. Give me the time, I should say.

[Gunny376]

Well I for one think you're making the right decision.

 

Its suppose to be

 

"For better or worse

Rich and poor

Through sickness and health"

 

not:

 

"Until you've PMO bad enough or enough times, or until something better comes along?"

 

I'm not saying that you should hang in there until your in the Old Folks Home with the wife asking about when you're going to make good on your promise? What promise? The one for "richer and better, Lord knows you've made good on it for poorer and worse!"

[empty906]

I heard on tv once (Everybody Loves Raymond, maybe?) where the guy said, "When the minister said 'til death do us part I never knew that would become the goal!"

[Gunny376]

I'm, as I said an advocate for staying together come Hell, High Water and Damnation at all costs. Certainly there's a breakeven point, to where it best for all concern if you just go your separate ways.

 

However, as your walking out the door with your cluth in your hand, out into the morning fog, you can do so with your honor, self respect in tact, with the full knowledge of:

 

"Hey, I gave it my best shot! I gave it all I had! I gave it everything I had! I did my absolute best to try and make it work" and you can look your children in the eye, and tell them that.

[CaliGuy]

Lots of activity here today. Uhm, rather than try to respond to individual posts let me tell another story...

 

My mom confided in me alot of what has happened in her past. Things I never knew and she never wanted to tell but since I had found myself in the mess I was in she told me some stories. She knows where I am because she has been here.

 

One story was of when I was a baby. My dad had left her/us in an ugly divorce and she was extemely depressed for a long time. She had thought about suicide a few times but always blew it off. Silly thoughts.

 

So one particular night she was very depressed again and had made up her mind to kill herself. She told me that she heard me moving around in my bed (one year old) and went in to check on me. Seeing me lying there made her realize she couldn't do something stupid like suicide and leave me without a father and a mother. So she says she lived to take care of me. I saved her.

 

I thought about that story today. I put on When You Know by Shawn Colvin and as it played I took out a picture of my wife. I also took out a picture of the OW. And I took out a picture of my son. The theme of the song is that when you know you love someone there is nothing you can do about it. In my little world, it was very fitting.

 

These three pictures represented the three struggles I am having. Three people who are in my life and who love me. The most important? That little boy. He needs me more than the other two do. He needs me like I needed my mom back when she made a tough decision.

 

So I know what I have to do now. Although it would most likely work with the OW it is not something that can happen now. Not today. I will stay with him and that means focusing on my marriage. I will try it, atleast.

 

I had already withdrawn when she decided to draw in. We were both withdrawn from each other for a period of time there. Now I see I should see if things can be worked out in my heart towards my W.

 

It's not about feelings anymore is it? My marriage isn't about two people who are in love and want to grow old together. It isn't about two friends, it is about raising a son. How sad my hopes and dreams fell to something so far from what I wanted marriage to be for me.

 

So, LJ, I'll find some love for my W still hiding somewhere in my heart? Maybe you are right... <chuckle> I just really don't like her right now.

 

Maybe tomorrow will be different.

 

Good for you man. That is the RIGHT and JUST thing to do. At least if it doesn't work you can say "I gave it my best shot."

 

I think that's all everyone wants for you is for you to give your marriage the best shot you can.

 

Do it for your son, yes. But make sure you do it for YOU as well.

[OldEurope]

What a wonderful way to live life: faking, pretending, self-deluding one's way through for the sake of creating a fake, pretend, delusional world for someone else, and the chorus here chiming in to say, Oh, that is the "right" thing to do.

 

Children are smart crackers--they know what is real and what is not. I do not "advocate" divorce at the first (or even first dozen) blows. But when one is at the point where personal misery and heartache are going to zap a person of their own identity and happiness...there is no way a child is going to benefit. He or she will pick up the negativity, the underlying resentment of the two parents, which will only build and build. And what kind of model is this for the child's own perception of relationships? I can hear him at 18: "My parents could not stand each other. The household was rotten. And it was all for 'me'. Thanks guys".

 

LJ--Is he manning up or giving up? Is this "strength" or resignation? Methinks you are dressing the latter up to give the appearance of the former and that is...well...more faking it, I guess (*sigh*)

 

And Empty, if you have to "search for" love for your wife, then it is probably not there. Love is a constant. It does not turn on and off like a light switch. Feelings of romantic passion, etc yes do get run down in the day to day but "I am trying to see if I have love for her"---I mean, consider the absurdity of the very thought.

 

My bet? Empty is back here in six months with singing a different tune.

 

(PS Empty--not a guy...I am a 100% vooo-mannn!!)

 

OE

[dilly]

You know, I'd have to agree with OE on this.

 

It's not about feelings anymore is it? My marriage isn't about two people who are in love and want to grow old together. It isn't about two friends, it is about raising a son. How sad my hopes and dreams fell to something so far from what I wanted marriage to be for me.

 

This pretty much sounds like you've given in. A life without emotion (It might be fine for Spock but we are humans) is a sad life indeed. Until anyone discovers the meaning of life, we are all just struggling to live it and its how we choose to live our lives is what defines us. When you are an old, old man contemplating your life, will you have regrets? What will they write on your epitaph? Life is too long to be miserable.

 

A life without emotion? Don't wake up from that 30 year coma to find out that life just passed you by.

[dilly]

The ten Commandments of married life

 

* Commandment 1: Marriages are made in heaven. But so again, are thunder and lightning.

* Commandment 2: If you want your wife to listen and pay strict attention to every word you say, talk in your sleep.

* Commandment 3: Marriage is grand -- and divorce is at least 100 grand.

* Commandment 4: Married life is very frustrating. In the first year of marriage, the man speaks and the woman listens. In the second year, the woman speaks and the man listens. In the third year, they both speak and the neighbors listen.

* Commandment 5: When a man opens the door of his car for his wife, you can be sure of one thing: either the car is new or the wife is.

* Commandment 6: Marriage is when a man and woman become as one; the trouble starts when they try to decide which one.

* Commandment 7: Before marriage, a man will lie awake all night thinking about something she said. After marriage, he will fall asleep before she finishes.

* Commandment 8: Every man wants a wife who is beautiful, understanding, economical, and a good cook. But the law allows only one wife.

* Commandment 9: Marriage and love are purely a matter of chemistry. That's why the wife treats the husband like toxic waste.

* Commandment 10: A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished....

[PWSX3]

I was told this a while ago but I will put it in my own words for you.

 

The relationship you have now is not good, you can agree with me on that, so what "you" have to do is change your part. If it hasn't been working up to now, doing the same thing over & over still won't work.

 

I suggest you pickup a few books and start reading, that was very helpful to me. You can never learn enough about a marriage that's for sure. I really enjoyed the books; His needs Her needs & The Five Languages of Love.

 

My cousin just got married last week & the preacher (another cousin) said in the bible it tells us that when two people get married they become one so to me that means there is no one to point the finger at because you are as one, but if you have to point a finger point it at yourself.

 

Even if we think we have done everything right, there is always room for improvement & improving ourself is the best gift we can give.

 

Just like on American Idol, there are people that really think they are good singers & I really thought I was doing a good job of being a husband, but when someone helps point out certain things you start to realize there are things you can do better, there are things you need to work on even though we all think we are doing our best.

 

You can't make your spouse change (even though it sounds like she is trying) but you CAN do your part, figure out what you have done wrong, what you can do to make it better and while you are doing this you will see it helps in your daily life as well. You start enjoying life & those so called feelings you don't have right now for your W may start coming back quicker then you think.

 

Just as Gunny said; after you have done everything you can & it still doesn't work at least you can say I did what "I" could do.

[Gunny376]

The ten Commandments of married life

 

* Commandment 1: Marriages are made in heaven. But so again, are thunder and lightning.

* Commandment 2: If you want your wife to listen and pay strict attention to every word you say, talk in your sleep.

* Commandment 3: Marriage is grand -- and divorce is at least 100 grand.

* Commandment 4: Married life is very frustrating. In the first year of marriage, the man speaks and the woman listens. In the second year, the woman speaks and the man listens. In the third year, they both speak and the neighbors listen.

* Commandment 5: When a man opens the door of his car for his wife, you can be sure of one thing: either the car is new or the wife is.

* Commandment 6: Marriage is when a man and woman become as one; the trouble starts when they try to decide which one.

* Commandment 7: Before marriage, a man will lie awake all night thinking about something she said. After marriage, he will fall asleep before she finishes.

* Commandment 8: Every man wants a wife who is beautiful, understanding, economical, and a good cook. But the law allows only one wife.

* Commandment 9: Marriage and love are purely a matter of chemistry. That's why the wife treats the husband like toxic waste.

* Commandment 10: A man is incomplete until he is married. After that, he is finished....

 

 

The Three Stages of Sex In Marriage:

 

In the first stage you have sex everywhere, the bedroom, the bathroom, the living room, the kitchen, the den,.......................

 

In the second stage you only have sex in the bedroom

 

In the thrid stage you only have sex in the hallway, as you pass her, and she passes you, you look at her ~ she looks at you, and you each say to each other in passing ~ screw you! :laugh: :laugh:

[CaliGuy]

What a wonderful way to live life: faking, pretending, self-deluding one's way through for the sake of creating a fake, pretend, delusional world for someone else, and the chorus here chiming in to say, Oh, that is the "right" thing to do.

 

Children are smart crackers--they know what is real and what is not. I do not "advocate" divorce at the first (or even first dozen) blows. But when one is at the point where personal misery and heartache are going to zap a person of their own identity and happiness...there is no way a child is going to benefit. He or she will pick up the negativity, the underlying resentment of the two parents, which will only build and build. And what kind of model is this for the child's own perception of relationships? I can hear him at 18: "My parents could not stand each other. The household was rotten. And it was all for 'me'. Thanks guys".

 

LJ--Is he manning up or giving up? Is this "strength" or resignation? Methinks you are dressing the latter up to give the appearance of the former and that is...well...more faking it, I guess (*sigh*)

 

And Empty, if you have to "search for" love for your wife, then it is probably not there. Love is a constant. It does not turn on and off like a light switch. Feelings of romantic passion, etc yes do get run down in the day to day but "I am trying to see if I have love for her"---I mean, consider the absurdity of the very thought.

 

My bet? Empty is back here in six months with singing a different tune.

 

(PS Empty--not a guy...I am a 100% vooo-mannn!!)

 

OE

 

 

You're neglecting one thing, the OW. You can not truly love two people at the same time. Not in a healthy way. If all the love in his bucket is being saved for the OW then there is none left for his wife.

 

Until the OW is out of the picture completely it would be impossible for him to search his feelings and at least try and see if there is something left for his wife.

 

His wife seemed to be able to correct her attitude and make him a prority and find love for him. Why then would it be impossible for him to do the same?

 

It isn't.

 

Regardless of what is the main factor for trying agan, he is doing the right and just thing here and that's working on his marriage. I think it's absolutely ridiculous of you to suggest that he not even try.

 

Many marriages have been repaired even after severe cases of infidelity. If he wants to try, who are you to tell him he's doing the wrong thing?

[Ladyjane14]

What a wonderful way to live life: faking, pretending, self-deluding one's way through for the sake of creating a fake, pretend, delusional world for someone else, and the chorus here chiming in to say, Oh, that is the "right" thing to do.

 

I suppose all that would depend on exactly WHICH of these two "worlds" really is "delusional".

 

You might believe that the world of the EMR is the real one. But I'm not inclined to agree. To my mind... the REAL world is problematic, chaotic. The REAL world asks us to resolve our issues, not avoid them.

The AFFAIR world is the one which is based on fantasy, IMHO. It asks nothing of us, except that we be led by our emotions.

 

Children are smart crackers--they know what is real and what is not. I do not "advocate" divorce at the first (or even first dozen) blows. But when one is at the point where personal misery and heartache are going to zap a person of their own identity and happiness...there is no way a child is going to benefit. He or she will pick up the negativity, the underlying resentment of the two parents, which will only build and build. And what kind of model is this for the child's own perception of relationships? I can hear him at 18: "My parents could not stand each other. The household was rotten. And it was all for 'me'. Thanks guys".

 

I agree with that. BUT... I believe that the resentments must be resolved, at least to a degree, either way. Divorce doesn't resolve these issues all on it's own. If these resentments are firmly held, it only creates TWO households where animosity exists against the other parent rather than one. Do you honestly think that children are unaffected by their parents acrimony simply by virtue of a divorce decree?

If so, I can assure you it's not true. I remember my own childhood too well to buy into that one.

 

LJ--Is he manning up or giving up? Is this "strength" or resignation? Methinks you are dressing the latter up to give the appearance of the former and that is...well...more faking it, I guess (*sigh*)

 

In my estimation, he is "manning up". And I believe it for the same reasons these other men have expressed.

 

PWSX3 for example, is LIVING proof that inner change is possible. And proof too of what a positive force it has on one's self-esteem. He is a man who has taken stock of his life, and bravely faced whatever deficits that he, himself, might have brought to the table. He understands that HE is in charge of HIMSELF and not of anyone else. And he is determined that no matter what else happens, he's going to keep his sense of hard-won self respect. It's the man (or woman) in the mirror whose respect we MOST need afterall.

 

When it comes to the issue of personal responsibility, I've experienced these changes myself. It's powerful. It strips away the "delusions" of sometimes YEARS of social hypnosis, and puts us back in the driver's seat of our own lives. Our choices become OURS again. We are not led by another person's impetus. The blinders are off. We see ourselves clearly... and we can see our partner clearly again too. Sometimes we like what we see. Sometimes we don't. Either way, when we KNOW we've done our best, we can live with the outcome.

 

These days, I take personal responsibility for each and every one of my own choices. i.e. If another driver pisses me off in traffic, and I get bent out of shape about it. Yeah, he might be wrong... but HE isn't the one who's suffering over it. I'm the one feeling negative because I'm angry. There are a*holes everywhere and I can CHOOSE to not be internally affected by them, but if I don't... who's fault is that?

 

I've learned that it's okay to let the other guy carry his own bags. It's peaceful. Because although I might be at sea with everybody else's emotional flotsam, I can choose not to ingest it.

 

In my personal relationships, I can see motivations and causes that have NOTHING to do with me. Really, not much of anything other people feel has much to do with me anyway. So, I can address problems without internalizing them. If my husband or my child come in after a hard day acting like a thundercloud, THAT isn't about ME. If I refuse to internalize it, I can actually help them through it. They might be tired, or hungry, or frustrated at work or school... and even though they've made a mistake by slopping their feelings onto me in some nitpicking way... I can choose to help them redirect that energy and identify the correct source. That is, if I don't assume it's about ME.

 

Love is a constant. It does not turn on and off like a light switch.

 

How long have you been married anyway? If you believe that "love is a constant", I have to wonder.

 

If love cannot be "blocked", how do you explain people like me who have found it again? I'm not the only one, you know. Nearly ALL married folk go through ups and downs in the course of a long marriage. During these times, they might feel like the love is all gone, but then it reappears. This is probably more normal than abnormal, so how do you explain it?

 

My bet? Empty is back here in six months with singing a different tune.

 

Anyway, I suspect that you're right in the idea that marital recovery is going to be difficult for both Empty and Dilly. I don't think they're quite ready to reinvest emotionally yet for one thing, and I believe them when they say there are serious problems within each of their marriages.

 

It takes time and it takes commitment. They're both still frustrated, angry, and resentful... and it's just not possible to recover a marriage until these emotions are set aside. There are some other ingredients as well, but let's not set the cart ahead of the horse yet.

 

First things first... There's more here than meets the eye in terms of the emotional affairs they've each experienced too. And THOSE feelings will have to be resolved before they can let they can make any forward progress at all. This is the bad data that needs to be thrown out of the equation.

 

After reading Dilly's other thread, I can see some things that maybe they're both too close to see. Call me a cynic... but I believe I see the OW's agenda in both these situations, as well as some basic woman behavior which can be misleading for a man.

 

While I'm willing to recognize that the word "agenda" sounds a bit nefarious and premeditated... it is nevertheless representative of a 'payoff'. We all tend to engage in behaviors that allow us to get something back for our investment of time and energy. When you look at the EA from both sides, each person is getting SOMETHING out of it.

 

For Empty and Dilly, two guys who aren't getting their emotional needs met at home... here is a woman who is meeting a good many of them. They're getting positive communications and admiration. They're feeling special to someone for maybe the first time in YEARS.

 

But... the women are getting pretty much the same thing from them. We're talking about two married women though, who backed off when things got heated. What that tells me is that there's a good chance that these women were sharing conversation in a way that they might have shared it with a same-sex friend, as well as enjoying the "payoff" of attention from an opposite-sex friend.

 

We girls do tend to talk.

And we tend to release our frustrations in the manner of little teapots letting off steam. This is something that's VERY difficult for alot of men to understand. Not to overly generalize, but men sometimes take us quite literally much in the manner they might understand each other. For example, a man who overhears his wife's conversation with a girlfriend might not understand how she can say such negative things about him... and yet still love him dearly. He'll be really hurt by it, when all the time it's just verbal "steam" being released. Sometimes, it's ALL chaff.

 

By the same token, women sometimes don't understand that a man WILL mean his words in a literal sense. There might be some chaff mixed in with the wheat... but if you LISTEN, the wheat is there.

 

This is another reason why they get so HURT over the course of time when communications have broken down within the marriage. They've been saying the same things over and over... but their "wheat" is understood as "chaff" by their partner.

 

For my part, my husband had told me EVERYTHING that had contributed to the breakdown of the marriage.... and he had told me repeatedly. Problem was... he was usually frustrated and angry by the time he'd spit these things out, so there was quite a bit of "chaff" mixed in with that "wheat".

But to give credit where credit is due... he'd already tried talking about it earlier without much success, because I had my own POV on most of the issues which I adhered to like so much SuperGlue.

 

Now... imagine how nice it might be for a guy like that to have a woman LISTEN, and even better, to VALIDATE his concerns. Hell it doesn't take much imagination to see how that's gonna turn a man's head right off his neck.

 

The EA is not difficult to understand. It's representative of unmet needs within the primary relationship as well as boundaries which have been crossed in order to fulfill those needs. When you begin to see how the EA works, it's possible to also see the inherent flaws in it. The EA hasn't been forced to stand on it's own merits. It's exists as a patch for the more problematic primary relationship.

 

Once the primary relationship has been fully resolved, the void which was once filled by the EA is no more. If the primary relationship is recovered, the void is filled from within. If the primary relationship is dissolved, any new relationship must stand or fail on it's own merits just like any other.

[Gunny376]

There are a*holes everywhere and I can CHOOSE to not be internally affected by them, but if I don't... who's fault is that?

 

I CHOOSE every morning when I get up to choose not to be an a*hole!

 

The way I've got it figured? The world's covered up with them, has all "it" can handle, and it doesn't need one more!

[empty906]

LJ, that post was awesome. This is some of the best information I have been given and a long time. Thank you for all the time you spend cranking out these posts for people you 'don't give a damn about'.

 

And the insights into women's behaviors and how we men easily misinterpret them is by far the most helpful. You know, even being the one in love and seeing and hearing what I have with this OW you can't help but wonder after an eye opener like the one you just gave me.

 

And you are right, the OW is filling gaps in my marriage. Only. Not a solid enough foundation like it seems to be. <sigh> That sucks.

 

I remember when the OW first started calling me. I thought, "This is interesting." Then we had our first date (her lead) and I thought, "Even more interesting. Let's see where this leads. I can back off anytime things get out of hand." Well looky where things lead, huh? And I didn't do so good a job backing off either...

 

After reading your post, LJ, and thinking about it for quite a while absorbing the new information I can see the OW's lead in most everything. Now. And I was sucking it all in as fast as she could dish it out. She had what I wanted and was all about giving me everything I needed. Was I played?!?

 

Surely not. Surely I wasn't part of an 'agenda', was I? Of course you don't know but, come on, is this the icing on my cake? Used?

 

Think I met her needs at the time as she was meeting mine? She was totally satisfied with our relationship and then realized I had fallen for her? Then, maybe, liked the idea and, well, didn't want to cut ties until she was finished?

 

Ah, dammit, how screwed up things are right now. I decide to stick the W and then deal with what the hell to do about the OW only to learn that I may have been a sham.

 

Not what I expected at all.

 

I'll think more on this. I am not quite ready to think of what all transpired between us as her agenda. If so, oh, she's good. <shaking head> Real good.

 

On another note, the W and I had a little date night tonight. Our son stayed at a friend's house and we went and had dinner and whatnot and just hung out. Her idea for the date night. It was ok. Not bad and I can see what you were saying about her trying.

 

I have more to sort out in my head now after that post and as I begin mending my marriage. And thanks again!

[Gunny376]

LJ, that post was awesome. This is some of the best information I have been given and a long time. Thank you for all the time you spend cranking out these posts for people you 'don't give a damn about'.

 

And the insights into women's behaviors and how we men easily misinterpret them is by far the most helpful. You know, even being the one in love and seeing and hearing what I have with this OW you can't help but wonder after an eye opener like the one you just gave me.

 

And you are right, the OW is filling gaps in my marriage. Only. Not a solid enough foundation like it seems to be. <sigh> That sucks.

 

I remember when the OW first started calling me. I thought, "This is interesting." Then we had our first date (her lead) and I thought, "Even more interesting. Let's see where this leads. I can back off anytime things get out of hand." Well looky where things lead, huh? And I didn't do so good a job backing off either...

 

After reading your post, LJ, and thinking about it for quite a while absorbing the new information I can see the OW's lead in most everything. Now. And I was sucking it all in as fast as she could dish it out. She had what I wanted and was all about giving me everything I needed. Was I played?!?

 

Surely not. Surely I wasn't part of an 'agenda', was I? Of course you don't know but, come on, is this the icing on my cake? Used?

 

Think I met her needs at the time as she was meeting mine? She was totally satisfied with our relationship and then realized I had fallen for her? Then, maybe, liked the idea and, well, didn't want to cut ties until she was finished?

 

Ah, dammit, how screwed up things are right now. I decide to stick the W and then deal with what the hell to do about the OW only to learn that I may have been a sham.

 

Not what I expected at all.

 

I'll think more on this. I am not quite ready to think of what all transpired between us as her agenda. If so, oh, she's good. <shaking head> Real good.

 

On another note, the W and I had a little date night tonight. Our son stayed at a friend's house and we went and had dinner and whatnot and just hung out. Her idea for the date night. It was ok. Not bad and I can see what you were saying about her trying.

 

I have more to sort out in my head now after that post and as I begin mending my marriage. And thanks again!

 

You know "E" it seems like the fog is lifting?!

[dilly]

Makes alot of sense.

 

As for myself. My marriage i think is the best its been in a long time. I'm trying to work things out and have decided no more OW at all. Now i feel i can give my W 100% and quite honestly, shes been trying too.

 

Thanks!

[Gunny376]

Makes alot of sense.

 

As for myself. My marriage i think is the best its been in a long time. I'm trying to work things out and have decided no more OW at all. Now i feel i can give my W 100% and quite honestly, shes been trying too.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Like I told "E" it looks like the "fog" may be lifting!

[Gunny376]

Look, if you're un-happy in your marriage, your hating life, and most everyone in it, by all means get out.

 

But, don't go stumblling and fumbling into another relationship! Learn how to live and be happy by yourself without someone. Learn how to be comfortable and happy by yourself, with yourself, and comfortable in your own skin, in your own place, and in your own space!

[dilly]

This forum saved me alot of money. My therapist hates you all! LOL!

[Ladyjane14]

...I can see the OW's lead in most everything. Now. And I was sucking it all in as fast as she could dish it out. She had what I wanted and was all about giving me everything I needed. Was I played?!?

 

Surely not. Surely I wasn't part of an 'agenda', was I? Of course you don't know but, come on, is this the icing on my cake? Used?

 

Think I met her needs at the time as she was meeting mine? She was totally satisfied with our relationship and then realized I had fallen for her? Then, maybe, liked the idea and, well, didn't want to cut ties until she was finished?

 

Ah, dammit, how screwed up things are right now. I decide to stick the W and then deal with what the hell to do about the OW only to learn that I may have been a sham.

 

Not what I expected at all.

 

I'll think more on this. I am not quite ready to think of what all transpired between us as her agenda. If so, oh, she's good. <shaking head> Real good.

 

 

Like I said earlier, the word "agenda" sounds a bit nefarious and premeditated but I think it's representative of energy expended in order to receive a "payoff". For most folks, I don't think there's a conscious awareness of it though.

 

Take a look at this post from yesterday in the Infidelity section:

http:// http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t112073/

 

This young lady has a "gap" in her marriage. She doesn't tell us much about her husband, but it's easy to see that there's a loss of emotional intimacy within the marriage.

 

She meets a guy at work, and he is nice to her, "flirts" with her a bit. And that attention from an opposite-sex friend starts filling in some of those gaps. The energy we receive from an opposite-sex friend is different than what we get from a same-sex friend, at least it is for heterosexuals... because there's a sexual element to it that boosts our self-esteem. We feel more attractive for having received this attention.

 

It's not difficult to understand. I've been married for 25 years, and it's not like I never had a pass made at me in all that time. For a woman, it feels pretty good to be noticed by an attractive guy.... particularly when your mate hasn't been making too much of a fuss over you lately. I imagine it's pretty much the same for a man.

 

Next thing we see in this post though, is a guy who's admittedly in an otherwise happy marriage, showing reluctance to give up this additional female attention. It's heady stuff.

 

Now, neither one of these folks is probably a bad person. Neither one of them is likely to see an "agenda" in their actions. Even so, this girl seems fairly desperate to keep filling in her "gaps". She's unhappy in her marriage, and for whatever reason, unwilling to either fix it or leave it.

 

 

Let me point you to one more thread, so you can look at it from a guy's POV.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t108933/

 

This is Bklk, and he's got a thread here in the Separation/Divorce section too if you want to follow his story. But the reason I point his posts out to you is that I think there's value to be had in looking at the wayward wife through his eyes.

 

He's a guy who admits to us right up front that he's made some mistakes. For one, he had an affair 7 ago during the courtship phase of his relationship. His wife of 4 years, appeared to have completely forgiven him. However, she is currently involved with a co-worker and the marriage is on the brink of divorce.

 

While we can only go by his posts, he seems like a fairly upstanding guy. Initially, he showed alot of patience and a willingness to be cooperative in a "trial separation". He seemed to be prepared to LISTEN and to make positive changes.

 

The reason I think his story is pertinant to you though is... here is Bklk, a fairly nice guy who's made some mistakes but who's willing to make changes. Do you believe that's the story the 25 year old co-worker is hearing?

.... I kind of doubt it.

 

We don't know the husband from the first post we looked at. He could be a terrible a*hole, or like Bklk, he could be a guy who's willing to bring his A-game to the table if given a chance. But whatever the case, I kind of doubt that what the MM is hearing is REALLY the whole unvarnished truth.

 

What he's hearing is a POV which has been filtered through a female lens. Guys don't like to hear about women being mistreated. You tell a nice guy you're "emotionally abused" by your mate, and he's going to react to that like there's a damsel in distress, particularly if there's a strong sexual undercurrent.

 

But guys.... we women are made of sterner stuff than that.

We are fully capable of solving our own marital problems. And when you allow yourselves to be used as a sounding board for female emotions... you are naturally going to be misinterpreting some of what you hear.

 

As a gender, we're MORE likely to talk about issues in emotional terms. This is not your experience with guys in the locker room or the car pool. If another MAN starts telling you all his emotional business, you know he's got some pretty serious sh*t going on.

 

Now, I don't want to minimize the emotional responses of these women, but... I want you to understand that sometimes what a woman might consider as "emotional abuse" won't pass muster through a man's "filter".

 

I assure you that my girlfriends considered ME to be "emotionally abused" at one point. But, really... I wasn't. I was dealing with a man, imperfect as we all are, who was at the end of his rope trying to get through to me. When those flare-ups were viewed through MY filter and then passed along to my girlfriends, it all sounded pretty damn bad.

 

But, in reality, there wasn't more on my plate than I could handle... if I had just applied myself to the problems rather than to my own emotions. AND.. when it's all said and done, my girlfriends were sympathetic to ME and not so much to my husband.

 

Anyway, I think you can see how it all ends up like a game of "telephone" and here you fellows are... handicapped by earmuffs.

 

A woman's ability to process emotional data is comparable to a man's, in the way and interstate highway might be to a winding country road. When we've passed that data through our "filter" we sometimes draw emotional conclusions rather than literal ones. This alters the information that we pass on to our friends.

 

In general terms, a woman might place MORE importance on these emotions than the preceding action was worthy of, and then pass that view along. Say her husband is insensitive with her, or says something rude... it's going to sound pretty bad by the time she's processed the information through her emotional filter.

 

Meanwhile, a man might not always place enough importance on emotional information, particularly when he's dealing with his mate. For example, his wife gets mad about some little household chore he didn't help her with. He might interpret that to be about the chore, rather than her emotional viewpoint that 'if she was important enough to him, he'd want to help her out more'.

 

Through her lens, it's an emotional issue where she's feels underprioritized by her mate. But through his more literal lens... she's FLIPPING OUT about the laundry or the dishes. What a crazy bitch!

 

Female and male gender differences are MORE than just 'innies' and 'outties', guys.

And while we're pretty much equal in terms of emotional depth and the myriad of feelings we each experience... we process information differently in accordance with the layout of our brain.

[PWSX3]

A woman's ability to process emotional data is comparable to a man's, in the way and interstate highway might be to a winding country road. When we've passed that data through our "filter" we sometimes draw emotional conclusions rather than literal ones. This alters the information that we pass on to our friends.

 

In general terms, a woman might place MORE importance on these emotions than the preceding action was worthy of, and then pass that view along. Say her husband is insensitive with her, or says something rude... it's going to sound pretty bad by the time she's processed the information through her emotional filter.

 

Meanwhile, a man might not always place enough importance on emotional information, particularly when he's dealing with his mate. For example, his wife gets mad about some little household chore he didn't help her with. He might interpret that to be about the chore, rather than her emotional viewpoint that 'if she was important enough to him, he'd want to help her out more'.

 

Through her lens, it's an emotional issue where she's feels underprioritized by her mate. But through his more literal lens... she's FLIPPING OUT about the laundry or the dishes. What a crazy bitch!

 

Female and male gender differences are MORE than just 'innies' and 'outties', guys.

And while we're pretty much equal in terms of emotional depth and the myriad of feelings we each experience... we process information differently in accordance with the layout of our brain.

 

LJ, do you think part of this might be because us as guys when a problem comes up we need to fix it, if something is broke we need to fix it instead of maybe just needing to be there to listen.

 

What really got me thinking about this was when we went and saw that movie; Casino Royale and he came home & there was a broken glass on the table and he went into the bathroom & the girl was setting in the shower & he didn't do anything, just took his jacket off and sat next to her. He didn't have to fix anything, just be by her side and that is all she needed.

 

Like you said, maybe part of the emotional part of a woman is she needs someone to listen & us guys see it as she wants us to fix something.

 

Something that always bothered me was the W would ask me; what do you want to eat so I would give her a couple suggestions & then when it was time to eat there would be something different then what I had said I wanted. WTF?!?!?!?

My guy friends have said the same thing, there wife or girlfriend will bring out two different dresses and ask; which one should they wear so they say the blue one & when they come out of the bedroom they have the red one on.

 

I did hear someone say that a man thinks his thoughts through in his head and knows the answer before he talks but a woman thinks outloud while she is making up her mind.

[mum2three]

I did hear someone say that a man thinks his thoughts through in his head and knows the answer before he talks but a woman thinks outloud while she is making up her mind.

That is so true. I think men think women are too indecisive but they just like to ask or talk out loud. That was my H's complaint too. Women also want to fully understand something b4 they move on or fix it. Men seem to get to the solution faster. We like plan A, B, & C.

[CaliGuy]

LJ, do you think part of this might be because us as guys when a problem comes up we need to fix it, if something is broke we need to fix it instead of maybe just needing to be there to listen.

 

What really got me thinking about this was when we went and saw that movie; Casino Royale and he came home & there was a broken glass on the table and he went into the bathroom & the girl was setting in the shower & he didn't do anything, just took his jacket off and sat next to her. He didn't have to fix anything, just be by her side and that is all she needed.

 

Like you said, maybe part of the emotional part of a woman is she needs someone to listen & us guys see it as she wants us to fix something.

 

Something that always bothered me was the W would ask me; what do you want to eat so I would give her a couple suggestions & then when it was time to eat there would be something different then what I had said I wanted. WTF?!?!?!?

My guy friends have said the same thing, there wife or girlfriend will bring out two different dresses and ask; which one should they wear so they say the blue one & when they come out of the bedroom they have the red one on.

 

I did hear someone say that a man thinks his thoughts through in his head and knows the answer before he talks but a woman thinks outloud while she is making up her mind.

 

Women often talk because they want us to listen, not give advice. Even sometimes when they ask for it.

 

Being a good listener doesn't involve talking or giving advice, unless specifically asked. Many times women want to vent.

 

Men would be smart to shut up, listen and just be there for her. That's all most women really want.

 

I like the Casino Royale example. That was perfect. Say nothing, just be there.