sex as "insurance"

[outofdarkness]

OOD,

 

All I can say is why in the world do you put up with this man? You don't trust him (for good reason), you are miserable with him, and he treats you like garbage.

 

My husband was abusive and living with him was like living in hell. He also cheated repeatedly (I think). It sounds like living with your husband is like living in hell. Why do you need proof of anything? Your instict is telling you that he's up to something, he's treating you like crap, and isn't affectionate. What kind of husband is that?

 

I left my husband 12 days ago and I have never been happier. I don't have to wonder about what he is doing, I don't have to clean up after him, I don't have to cook for him. I am finally free to stop thinking about all of the crazy things he might be doing and I am free to heal myself and move on.

 

Really, life is WAY too short to be so unhappy.

I really can't answer that question w/out writing at lenght. Read some of my other posts and you may understand why I stay...Thanks for your reply and concern

[MoonGirl]

OOD,

 

I've read most of your posts, and I do understand why you've stayed with your husband as long as you have. Still, you sound terribly miserable.

 

I knew my husband as a teenager. We grew up together. I was deeply attached to him and had a hard time accepting the fact I had to leave him in order to save my sanity. It has been probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

 

I wonder why you track your husband. Of course, I understand why, but it seems pointless. You're driving yourself crazy, and your husband must resent it...because even though he knows why you're doing it, he must feel a sense of sadness and anger that you don't trust him (even if the lack of trust is valid). Based on your previous posts, it seems like he will cheat even if you're tracking him if that's what he wants to do. If you find out that he's cheating again, are you going to leave him? Or will you simply stay, again? If you're resolute on leaving if you catch him, then I suppose it makes sense to track him.

 

I know you're in pain, and I don't want to sound harsh, but you asked for the harsh truth...Your husband treats you like garbage. He cheated on you for most of your marriage. He doesn't show you affection. On top of all that, you have to be his watch-dog. You are terribly unhappy and constantly on edge.

 

"Please tell it to me like it is. What should I do..I need concrete proof before I can take action. I do't want to waste another 10 years w/ someone who does not want to be w/ me, like I did before. WHY is it so hard for MM to just tell the truth and let the M go if they want to be w/ someone else? Is it the money? I don't know and am very upset. Please, anyone advise...thanks.."

 

Again, I don't understand why you need concrete proof? In my marriage, my husband beat me. What would you think if I said, "I'm waiting for him to beat me just one more time so I could feel free to leave him." Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? The effects of being beaten or, in your case, betrayed, are long-lasting and so hurtful. Your husband has betrayed you so many times already that it sounds like even if he could be loyal in the future, your marriage would still never be fulfilling to you.

 

Why won't your husband leave you even if he thinks about it? Probably for many reasons. For him, you are what he knows. You are his "comfortably numb." You have kids together. He owns a lot of things with you. He would have to pay you a lot of money if he left. It is not socially acceptable to leave you. Maybe he would be embarrassed to leave. He doesn't want to hurt you. He doesn't want to be the "bad guy" in your eyes or the kids' eyes. He fears the unknown. Things with the OW(s) are uncertain. If he leaves you for them, there is no guarantee it will work out. Maybe your H is addicted to the excitement of the affairs, the secrecy of it.

 

Life is really really short. And, in my opinion, you deserve better.

[outofdarkness]

OOD,

 

I've read most of your posts, and I do understand why you've stayed with your husband as long as you have. Still, you sound terribly miserable.

 

I knew my husband as a teenager. We grew up together. I was deeply attached to him and had a hard time accepting the fact I had to leave him in order to save my sanity. It has been probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

 

I wonder why you track your husband. Of course, I understand why, but it seems pointless. You're driving yourself crazy, and your husband must resent it...because even though he knows why you're doing it, he must feel a sense of sadness and anger that you don't trust him (even if the lack of trust is valid). Based on your previous posts, it seems like he will cheat even if you're tracking him if that's what he wants to do. If you find out that he's cheating again, are you going to leave him? Or will you simply stay, again? If you're resolute on leaving if you catch him, then I suppose it makes sense to track him.

 

I know you're in pain, and I don't want to sound harsh, but you asked for the harsh truth...Your husband treats you like garbage. He cheated on you for most of your marriage. He doesn't show you affection. On top of all that, you have to be his watch-dog. You are terribly unhappy and constantly on edge.

 

"Please tell it to me like it is. What should I do..I need concrete proof before I can take action. I do't want to waste another 10 years w/ someone who does not want to be w/ me, like I did before. WHY is it so hard for MM to just tell the truth and let the M go if they want to be w/ someone else? Is it the money? I don't know and am very upset. Please, anyone advise...thanks.."

 

Again, I don't understand why you need concrete proof? In my marriage, my husband beat me. What would you think if I said, "I'm waiting for him to beat me just one more time so I could feel free to leave him." Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? The effects of being beaten or, in your case, betrayed, are long-lasting and so hurtful. Your husband has betrayed you so many times already that it sounds like even if he could be loyal in the future, your marriage would still never be fulfilling to you.

 

Why won't your husband leave you even if he thinks about it? Probably for many reasons. For him, you are what he knows. You are his "comfortably numb." You have kids together. He owns a lot of things with you. He would have to pay you a lot of money if he left. It is not socially acceptable to leave you. Maybe he would be embarrassed to leave. He doesn't want to hurt you. He doesn't want to be the "bad guy" in your eyes or the kids' eyes. He fears the unknown. Things with the OW(s) are uncertain. If he leaves you for them, there is no guarantee it will work out. Maybe your H is addicted to the excitement of the affairs, the secrecy of it.

 

Life is really really short. And, in my opinion, you deserve better.

You have some really valid points for me to ponder. I know that since I made the very difficult decision to stay w/ him after I filed for D, that I need to trust him and stop all of the detective work, but I have a hard time w/ this b/c I'm terrified that time will go by and I'll miss something again. I am working on all of these things. The reason why I said I need concrete proof is that, like most MM, he would be very careful after D day b/c he got caught!

 

I will think about the things you said...and thank you so much for your insight!! I am also going to follow another poster's suggestion and start to hang around in some other forums to try to get other perspectives. NOT that you all have not been supportive or compassionate, just think it's good to get other perspectives. Thanks again!!

[frannie]

Again, I don't understand why you need concrete proof? In my marriage, my husband beat me. What would you think if I said, "I'm waiting for him to beat me just one more time so I could feel free to leave him." Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? The effects of being beaten or, in your case, betrayed, are long-lasting and so hurtful. Your husband has betrayed you so many times already that it sounds like even if he could be loyal in the future, your marriage would still never be fulfilling to you.

 

Why won't your husband leave you even if he thinks about it? Probably for many reasons. For him, you are what he knows. You are his "comfortably numb." You have kids together. He owns a lot of things with you. He would have to pay you a lot of money if he left. It is not socially acceptable to leave you. Maybe he would be embarrassed to leave. He doesn't want to hurt you. He doesn't want to be the "bad guy" in your eyes or the kids' eyes. He fears the unknown. Things with the OW(s) are uncertain. If he leaves you for them, there is no guarantee it will work out. Maybe your H is addicted to the excitement of the affairs, the secrecy of it.

 

Life is really really short. And, in my opinion, you deserve better.

 

OOD I really agree with what MoonGirl has said here... You do deserve better, and everything that you are saying points to him cheating on you right now. Are you looking for proof of that..? If so, then invest... get a PI and find out. But be prepared for divorcing him if what you find proves what you think.

 

It was me who suggested looking at other forums on here, and searching around for other input. I don't like the way she puts things often, but I think LadyJane would really be able to help you if you could post somewhere where she frequents. Best of luck.

[RecordProducer]

Do you all think this is sort of like "insurance" on his part so that he's not as tempted to physically cheat while he's away?

Noooo... the first possibility that he will miss you so it's like the kiss before leaving. The second option is that he wants YOU to not be tempted. I had a bF who would actually announce that he wants to please me before he leaves so that I don't do it with someone else. The third option is that he knows HE will not see you and have sex with you for a few days so it's lie when you take the plate the kid doesn't want to it away... he suddenly wants to eat it.

 

Sorry, but your conclusion totally doesn't make sense - to not be tempted. If the temptation appears, believe me, NOTHING will prevent him from being tempted. In other words, he could have sex with you every day and if some hot chick tries to seduce him, he will be tempted. Whether he will say YES or NO is his decision. Temptation doesn't come from being horny or not having sex for a long time.

[MoonGirl]

I think LadyJane would really be able to help you if you could post somewhere where she frequents. Best of luck.

 

LadyJane frequents the separation and divorce section, BTW.

[outofdarkness]

OOD I really agree with what MoonGirl has said here... You do deserve better, and everything that you are saying points to him cheating on you right now. Are you looking for proof of that..? If so, then invest... get a PI and find out. But be prepared for divorcing him if what you find proves what you think.

 

It was me who suggested looking at other forums on here, and searching around for other input. I don't like the way she puts things often, but I think LadyJane would really be able to help you if you could post somewhere where she frequents. Best of luck.

Ok...thanks!!!

[outofdarkness]

LadyJane frequents the separation and divorce section, BTW.

I will try that forum, and mabey PM her...thanks for telling me...It really helps to know you all care...

[outofdarkness]

Noooo... the first possibility that he will miss you so it's like the kiss before leaving. The second option is that he wants YOU to not be tempted. I had a bF who would actually announce that he wants to please me before he leaves so that I don't do it with someone else. The third option is that he knows HE will not see you and have sex with you for a few days so it's lie when you take the plate the kid doesn't want to it away... he suddenly wants to eat it.

 

Sorry, but your conclusion totally doesn't make sense - to not be tempted. If the temptation appears, believe me, NOTHING will prevent him from being tempted. In other words, he could have sex with you every day and if some hot chick tries to seduce him, he will be tempted. Whether he will say YES or NO is his decision. Temptation doesn't come from being horny or not having sex for a long time.

Thank you so very much for this info. I'm sort of naive about the whole men and s-- thing. I really had NO idea that men could/wanted to/thought about having s-- that much!! For example, I really thought that he was trying to "get it out of his system" so that he would not be tempted if someone attractive that he was interested in, came along on a business trip...I didn't know/think about the apparent fact that it wouldn't have mattered HOW much he had gotten from me. This apparently was a huge missing component from my understanding of the whole A thing...Please don't laugh, I am really learning, have been very isolated; he's the only M I've ever been with, and am trying really hard to understand everything...Thanks for being so open and honest with me..it really helped...

[outofdarkness]

Hire a PI. Your gut is screaming to you, he's not acting very sorry husband or understanding. He should be giving you affection, not only in words, but in action - He's done neither, and him getting irritated isn't helping.....

The only one of these things that I know for sure is that he is addicted to s--, and the "rush and secrecy" of A's is a huge part of that...I don't know about the other things because noone can get into someone else's head, no matter how long they've known the person...I only know what he tells me and the bits and pieces that I got from two OW's...and from LS!!! I'm still learning..ALOT!

[outofdarkness]

OOD,

 

I've read most of your posts, and I do understand why you've stayed with your husband as long as you have. Still, you sound terribly miserable.

 

I knew my husband as a teenager. We grew up together. I was deeply attached to him and had a hard time accepting the fact I had to leave him in order to save my sanity. It has been probably the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

 

I wonder why you track your husband. Of course, I understand why, but it seems pointless. You're driving yourself crazy, and your husband must resent it...because even though he knows why you're doing it, he must feel a sense of sadness and anger that you don't trust him (even if the lack of trust is valid). Based on your previous posts, it seems like he will cheat even if you're tracking him if that's what he wants to do. If you find out that he's cheating again, are you going to leave him? Or will you simply stay, again? If you're resolute on leaving if you catch him, then I suppose it makes sense to track him.

 

I know you're in pain, and I don't want to sound harsh, but you asked for the harsh truth...Your husband treats you like garbage. He cheated on you for most of your marriage. He doesn't show you affection. On top of all that, you have to be his watch-dog. You are terribly unhappy and constantly on edge.

 

"Please tell it to me like it is. What should I do..I need concrete proof before I can take action. I do't want to waste another 10 years w/ someone who does not want to be w/ me, like I did before. WHY is it so hard for MM to just tell the truth and let the M go if they want to be w/ someone else? Is it the money? I don't know and am very upset. Please, anyone advise...thanks.."

 

Again, I don't understand why you need concrete proof? In my marriage, my husband beat me. What would you think if I said, "I'm waiting for him to beat me just one more time so I could feel free to leave him." Doesn't that sound ridiculous to you? The effects of being beaten or, in your case, betrayed, are long-lasting and so hurtful. Your husband has betrayed you so many times already that it sounds like even if he could be loyal in the future, your marriage would still never be fulfilling to you.

 

Why won't your husband leave you even if he thinks about it? Probably for many reasons. For him, you are what he knows. You are his "comfortably numb." You have kids together. He owns a lot of things with you. He would have to pay you a lot of money if he left. It is not socially acceptable to leave you. Maybe he would be embarrassed to leave. He doesn't want to hurt you. He doesn't want to be the "bad guy" in your eyes or the kids' eyes. He fears the unknown. Things with the OW(s) are uncertain. If he leaves you for them, there is no guarantee it will work out. Maybe your H is addicted to the excitement of the affairs, the secrecy of it.

 

Life is really really short. And, in my opinion, you deserve better.

I'll try to reply more later on your post..You're right about one thing, my invest. DOES irritate him and causes strife amoung us. It's hard not to, but it's stressful to do it too, it's a double edged sword, and you are all correct, it's not a pleasant way to live. I need to try to chill some...Thanks for your honesty and input..I really appreciate it.

[RecordProducer]

Thank you so very much for this info. I'm sort of naive about the whole men and s-- thing. I really had NO idea that men could/wanted to/thought about having s-- that much!! For example, I really thought that he was trying to "get it out of his system" so that he would not be tempted if someone attractive that he was interested in, came along on a business trip...I didn't know/think about the apparent fact that it wouldn't have mattered HOW much he had gotten from me. This apparently was a huge missing component from my understanding of the whole A thing...Please don't laugh, I am really learning, have been very isolated; he's the only M I've ever been with, and am trying really hard to understand everything...Thanks for being so open and honest with me..it really helped...

You're more than welcome and I didn't laugh at you.

 

I just read MoonGirl's post and found out that your husband had cheated on you more than once. May I ask for how long you've been married? Do you even consider leaving, given that you're unhappy with him? Are you employed? How old are the children?

 

Of course, you don't have to answer any of my questions. If you want to talk about it, we're here to listen and respond.

[Ladyjane14]

I got a PM earlier from Frannie who was kind enough to direct me to your thread, OOD.

I've taken a look at some of your previous posts and I have to tell you... I think the only way you'd be able to catch this guy out is to put a PI on him. He's too slick, and even though you've become a pretty good investigator, I just don't believe you'll be able to uncover the truth on your own.

 

You've said that you don't have the money for that, but you know what? ... when it's all said and done, I don't think "catching him" is strictly necessary. I think Moongirl's got "the right stuff" in her earlier post to you. It doesn't matter what he's doing if YOU are unhappy with what's going on in your life. You ALREADY know everything you need to know when you know THAT.

 

Nobody wants to be another person's keeper. No one wants to live in constant worry of 'when the other shoe is going to drop'.

 

Honey, this guy is a serial cheater, who's spent the last DECADE being unfaithful to you. He's had multiple partners that you're aware of as well as one steady partner, whose relationship with him is tantamount to a "shadow marriage". And this is just the stuff you know about. I can't imagine there's not a good deal more that you DON'T know of and probably will never find out.

 

I think it's important for you to realize that it's just not possible to stop your partner from cheating. No one can. It doesn't matter how vigilant you are, if he WANTS to cheat, he will. He can go to SA meetings until the cows come home... but the ONLY person who's ultimately going to be in charge of his behavior is HIM.

 

There just doesn't seem to be any point in your continued vigilance. You can't stop him if he wants to cheat. You don't have the money to have him followed. And even though you're probably still without all the details of his previous behavior, I think you've already got enough on him to make a pretty good prediction on future behavior.

 

I'm not saying that people can't change. They can if they want it badly enough. I'm also not going to tell you that even a WS with a long and florid history of adultery isn't going to eventually lose patience with constant monitoring if they have changed. Nobody wants to live in the doghouse forever. BUT... I don't think it's reasonable to expect trust after just a couple of years when you've cheated for A DECADE.

The fact that he's snarky about you checking smells fishy to me.

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a couple of things I'd like for you to think about....

 

1. If you knew definitively that your husband would continue cheating behind your back for the duration of your marriage... would you still want to be with him?

 

2. Do you believe that fidelity is absolutely necessary to a good marriage?

 

3. Were you happy in your marriage before you knew about the adultery?

 

 

Now, this is going to sound weird... but as I see it, it's the "monitoring" along with the accompanied anxiety which seems to be the most troubling thing for you right now. Personally, I don't think I would have been able to forgive a physical affair and certainly NOT a ten-year string of them. But, I'm not you. And YOU decided to stay in. There must have been some reasons for that.

 

What I'm getting to is this... I think there's a good possibility that you're taking an inherently unfaithful man, and attempting to make him into something he's not likely ever going to be. You know the old adage.. "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'? I think your situation is kind of like that.

 

I'm not sure if he's cheating on you again, and short of a PI on constant retainer... I don't think YOU will ever be sure either. What's worse, the constant worry that he's going to cheat you again is making you unhappy.

 

So... I think what you might need to do, is to decide if you can be happy a man who cheats.

 

Not every marriage is the same. Not every person is the same. You've stayed in this thing when a whole lot of other people would have bailed out. I think you need to ask yourself why that is. (????)

 

I only see two options for you here:

 

One, is that you divorce this man and move on with your life. He's done PLENTY already to justify this decision. So, if you don't want him, and what he has to offer isn't good enough... see an attorney and end the marriage. Sometimes it's better to BE alone than to FEEL alone.

 

Two, is that you accept the fact that you're married to a serial cheater who is likely to step out on you from time to time.

(This is where it gets REALLY weird! )

 

I think it's entirely possible for people to adjust their expectations to the extent where they're okay with accepting a flawed partner. You've accepted this guy (along with his flaws) for all these years. The only difference is that now you know it and before you didn't.

 

If you're determined to stay in this thing... the best protection you can have against eventual loss of the marriage is to make the relationship as strong as possible. With that in mind... the constant monitoring just weakens it for both of you at this point. You aren't getting any REAL reassurance, and he's not getting any trust. Neither of you are happy.

 

I know this sounds crazy... especially coming from me. But I think the only way you're going to be able to live with this guy is to accept him for what he is.... a cheater.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that you'd give him permission to cheat or that you'd even make him aware of the fact that you're okay with it. You certainly don't want to encourage him. (!!!!)

But what it does mean is that you STOP worrying about if there are other women in his life, take what you have together and enjoy it.

 

I think you could almost look at it as YOU stepping into the OW position in his life. You know... "If you're going to be a mistress, at least be a GOOD mistress", and all that.

You would accept his occasional cheating as an OW accepts a MM going home and having sexual relations with his wife. You would see him as "married" to his bachelorhood.

 

In the meantime, you'd continue to strengthen your bond with him. Eventually, you might be such a good "mistress" that he doesn't WANT others with the same ferocity he does now. Who knows? ... someday he might even become voluntarily faithful.

 

I know it sounds NUTS. But I'm just trying to think outside the box for you a little bit. You seem so very determined to hang in there, but you're not happy with it the way it is. You can't change anybody else but YOU when it's all said and done. I guess what I'm wondering... is if your views on marital fidelity are set in concrete, or if they're subject to change. (????)

[MoonGirl]

LadyJane has offered you some really wonderful advice.

[IpAncA]

LadyJane has offered you some really wonderful advice.

Yep I agree.

 

And TBH I find it very hard to believe after 10 years of cheating he will all of a sudden stop. Maybe they can I don't know but 10 years is a long time.

 

I don't know how far off this is but if that was me and I still wanted to cheat I would make sure this time I did a better job of covering my tracks.

[outofdarkness]

I got a PM earlier from Frannie who was kind enough to direct me to your thread, OOD. Thank you so very much Frannie, for caring enough to direct Ladyjane to me!

I've taken a look at some of your previous posts and I have to tell you... I think the only way you'd be able to catch this guy out is to put a PI on him. He's too slick, and even though you've become a pretty good investigator, I just don't believe you'll be able to uncover the truth on your own. If I see his behavior become abusive again, I will take action immediately and file for D, as I did after D day...

 

You've said that you don't have the money for that, but you know what? ... when it's all said and done, I don't think "catching him" is strictly necessary. I think Moongirl's got "the right stuff" in her earlier post to you. It doesn't matter what he's doing if YOU are unhappy with what's going on in your life. You ALREADY know everything you need to know when you know THAT. I can honestly say that when I am with him, I AM happy. He is my lover, best friend, companion, etc...I've known him since I was 16, and I can't imagine being with anyone else..I don't really WANT to be with anyone else. I know you all think this is wierd, but after all of these years, I still get googly eyed and butterflies in my stomach when I see him...The real problem seems to be when he travels, which is much less then it was pre D day, but more then I would like.

 

Nobody wants to be another person's keeper. No one wants to live in constant worry of 'when the other shoe is going to drop'. You're absolutely right, I hate checking up on him, and I have gotten MUCH better and less frequent about it...As I said above, it's the travel when I seem to go nuts about it...Also, I don't have the large group of friends that I did pre D day b/c so many that he cheated w/ were part of this group...We moved from this area, and I stay under the radar..I stay in this local b/c I don't want to uproot our kids at this late stage, but as soon as they are gone, we plan to move...It's always harder if one stays in the same local that most of the cheating went on in..I guess I do sort of live in fear of the other shoe dropping, but I would say its more paranoia on my part. I don't know. I DO know that I'm afraid to get my mail every day, although not as bad as right after D day, because the main OW sent a letter to me revealing the A thru snail mail..It was supposedly from a "friend" of her's, but I am positive it was her. I wish so much that I could have hated her...I didn't..I felt sorry for her and I actually thought she was very respectful, with a good sense of humor and compassionate. Isn't THAT wierd?? We even made plans to meet for lunch after D day, but in the end, we both chickened out. Back to my orig. thought, I don't know when I go to work, grocery, mall, part, if one of his OW, including the main one, is right there beside me, so I stay pretty close to home and as I said, under the radar. I was accused by her; because this is what my H told her, of knowing about the A all along and approving of it. I am terrified of this happening again, and you're right, it's keeping me from really living my life to the fullest. I am currently STILL working on all of these things w/ my IC, and we are still in MC...

 

Honey, this guy is a serial cheater, who's spent the last DECADE being unfaithful to you. He's had multiple partners that you're aware of as well as one steady partner, whose relationship with him is tantamount to a "shadow marriage". I KNEW there MUST be a name for this sort of A, but could not put my finger on it. That really is devastating. So, are you saying that during this time, he really didn't even feel like he was M to me and that he was M to her and cheating on her??? This is bizarre! Does this happen very often? And this is just the stuff you know about. I can't imagine there's not a good deal more that you DON'T know of and probably will never find out. There is MUCH that I don't know about. He said after D day in MC that he couldn't even remember how many OW's there were...He only recognized them when they called by their phone # and this would then jog his memory and he would remember the name. Not all were PA's, some were purely EA's and some were both...It was unfathonamable to me b/c I was brought up in a family where the M vows were so honored and respected. My Dad cheated on my Mom, and as it turned out he was also a transvestite..NOT kidding!...My H always promised me that the would NEVER do this to me, and he has known my family since we were 16! He went through it all with us! He sat in the courtroom w/ my Mom and I and watched us go through all of that, all the while, doing his thing. If that's not an addiction, then I don't know what is. I remember saying to my IC right after D day, that he was either the meanest son of a b---- or REALLY f----- up!! Mabey both?

 

I think it's important for you to realize that it's just not possible to stop your partner from cheating. No one can. It doesn't matter how vigilant you are, if he WANTS to cheat, he will. He can go to SA meetings until the cows come home... but the ONLY person who's ultimately going to be in charge of his behavior is HIM. Yes, I have had to learn this the hard way. It's so easy for me to advise other people, but when it comes to myself, It's so hard to admit that I am NOT running the show...A bigger thing then me is! Also, I do know that the harder one pushes another, the more they back off..This is human nature. But somehow, it just all seems so surreal when it comes to me! I know that with his addiction, he gets even MORE of a "rush" if he knows he's fooling me..It's part of the allure of the whole thing. It's just not fun anymore if he's alone! I know this, yet it gets to be a compulsion sometimes NOT to do the detective thing...And I wanted to say that he has said to me many times, that I can't stop him...If he REALLY wants to cheat; he says he does not, then he will find a way...

 

There just doesn't seem to be any point in your continued vigilance. You can't stop him if he wants to cheat. You don't have the money to have him followed. And even though you're probably still without all the details of his previous behavior, I think you've already got enough on him to make a pretty good prediction on future behavior. Unfortunately, I can't base his future behavior on his past. He has gone thru alot of treatment and continues to try really hard to stay on top of things...So, I can't necessarily make those judgements...And, yes, I do have the money to hire a PI and have him followed, but I can't withdraw the megabucks that it would take to have him followed nationally while he travels..He would notice it missing and ask me about it. We always communicate about large sums of money, whether purchases, schools, etc...

 

I'm not saying that people can't change. They can if they want it badly enough. I'm also not going to tell you that even a WS with a long and florid history of adultery isn't going to eventually lose patience with constant monitoring if they have changed. Nobody wants to live in the doghouse forever. I think I addressed this above...But yes, you are absolutely right, noone wants to or will live in the dog house forever...The things that the checking up on are meant to prevent will be overshadowed anyway by the anxiousness and bitter ness about keeping tabs on him all the time... BUT... I don't think it's reasonable to expect trust after just a couple of years when you've cheated for A DECADE. NO, I don't think either one of us expects the trust to return even close to 100% after just two years, but it IS coming back in baby incrememts...Had I been on LS two years ago, I'd have been booted off the first day of posting, I was so angry and bitter...

The fact that he's snarky about you checking smells fishy to me. Yes, this does raise a red flag, but it's hard to tell if he's just loosing patience with it after two years, or something really IS going on that he feels defensive about...

 

 

 

Anyway, there's a couple of things I'd like for you to think about....

 

1. If you knew definitively that your husband would continue cheating behind your back for the duration of your marriage... would you still want to be with him? NO, not unless he went to intensive therapy...and even then, I don't know...

 

2. Do you believe that fidelity is absolutely necessary to a good marriage?YES!! AND I believe that infidelity includes friendships and emotional attachments that the W is unaware of. It's the secrecy that is the clencher!

 

3. Were you happy in your marriage before you knew about the adultery? I can now look back and see that we were VERY happy before the main A started 12 years ago. In looking back, strangely enough, I can remember the night in pretty vivid detail, that I noticed that something about s-- was "different" I was so young, had babies, and still remember..I just couldn't put my finger on it...Now that I know dates, I know that was around the time that the main A started...Prior to that, we were very happy. After that, in looking back, he became irritable, angry, degrading, and noncommicative and unattached. He was like a different person. I had two babies, parent's who where going through a D, and nowhere to go...I was stuck, short of going to a shelter...I didn't know what was wrong, and blamed myself....

 

 

Now, this is going to sound weird... but as I see it, it's the "monitoring" along with the accompanied anxiety which seems to be the most troubling thing for you right now. Personally, I don't think I would have been able to forgive a physical affair and certainly NOT a ten-year string of them. But, I'm not you. And YOU decided to stay in. There must have been some reasons for that. See the above..Also, I love him dearly, strange as that sounds, we have a long history together, and we have a very ill child...

 

What I'm getting to is this... I think there's a good possibility that you're taking an inherently unfaithful man, and attempting to make him into something he's not likely ever going to be. You know the old adage.. "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'? I think your situation is kind of like that. I can't tell you how often friends/family have said; "You can't change a lepard's spots". I know this, but we made a committment to each other once 21 years ago and again after D day. I feel obligated to continue to fill my end of the bargain...My suspicions may be totally unfounded...I guess the only way for me to put this aside and move on IS to hire a PI...

 

I'm not sure if he's cheating on you again, and short of a PI on constant retainer... I don't think YOU will ever be sure either. What's worse, the constant worry that he's going to cheat you again is making you unhappy. Yes, see the above about this as well. A PI on constant retainer is not realistic, but I think if I were to do it once over a short time period, and nothing were uncovered, I could much more easily concentrate on the M and put these paranoid behaviors behind me...Would he do it at some OTHER time in the future, I don't know, but I am pretty certain that I know what I would be looking for now..

 

So... I think what you might need to do, is to decide if you can be happy a man who cheats. NO! I cannot be happy w/ a man who cheats! I assume at this point that he is NOT cheating...That remains to be seen..My answer is NO due to my beliefs. etc...

 

Not every marriage is the same. Not every person is the same. You've stayed in this thing when a whole lot of other people would have bailed out. I think you need to ask yourself why that is. (????) Please see the above...I think I've done a pretty good job of outlining everything for you...

 

I only see two options for you here:

 

One, is that you divorce this man and move on with your life. He's done PLENTY already to justify this decision. So, if you don't want him, and what he has to offer isn't good enough... see an attorney and end the marriage. Sometimes it's better to BE alone than to FEEL alone.

I know it's hard to understand, but option#1 is just not what I will do right now..

 

Two, is that you accept the fact that you're married to a serial cheater who is likely to step out on you from time to time. Nope, can't do this either..

(This is where it gets REALLY weird! )

 

I think it's entirely possible for people to adjust their expectations to the extent where they're okay with accepting a flawed partner. You've accepted this guy (along with his flaws) for all these years. The only difference is that now you know it and before you didn't. Every person on this earth is flawed. None of us were made to be perfect..I accept his flaws, but don't consider his addiction to be a "flaw" I consider it to be a part of him that he can not be cured of but keep under control...Not just for me, but for himself! There is a huge difference between pre D day and NOW...I would never knowingly stay in a M without setting ultimatums and boundries, with a H who cheats..It's just not me!

 

If you're determined to stay in this thing... the best protection you can have against eventual loss of the marriage is to make the relationship as strong as possible. With that in mind... the constant monitoring just weakens it for both of you at this point. You aren't getting any REAL reassurance, and he's not getting any trust. Neither of you are happy. Good points, and I think I've addressed them all above...I read with eagerness, the things that the good women on OW have had to tell me about the things they do with their MM. I want to know what it is that I need to do to make him happy...I am especially shall we say, naive? in the s-- dept. I've only been w/ him and don't really know what to do to be more exciting, or different??? When I ask him, he gets embarrassed. I guess b/c I was a virgin when we married, and it's just always been a certain way.

 

I know this sounds crazy... especially coming from me. But I think the only way you're going to be able to live with this guy is to accept him for what he is.... a cheater. As I said above, I can't and won't condone or accept this.

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that you'd give him permission to cheat or that you'd even make him aware of the fact that you're okay with it. You certainly don't want to encourage him. (!!!!)

But what it does mean is that you STOP worrying about if there are other women in his life, take what you have together and enjoy it. Yes, I am trying...

 

I think you could almost look at it as YOU stepping into the OW position in his life. You know... "If you're going to be a mistress, at least be a GOOD mistress", and all that. As I said, THAT is why I have spent so much time on the OW forum...

You would accept his occasional cheating as an OW accepts a MM going home and having sexual relations with his wife. You would see him as "married" to his bachelorhood. But no, I can't accept this, it's just not part of my being..

 

In the meantime, you'd continue to strengthen your bond with him. Eventually, you might be such a good "mistress" that he doesn't WANT others with the same ferocity he does now. Who knows? ... someday he might even become voluntarily faithful. I think that as I said HE said, if he wants to cheat, he'll cheat. It's the deception and secrecy that feeds the infidelity and is the allure of it. I would LOVE to be a good mistress, but I have to be his ONLY mistress! I do, need some tips..

 

I know it sounds NUTS. But I'm just trying to think outside the box for you a little bit. You seem so very determined to hang in there, but you're not happy with it the way it is. You can't change anybody else but YOU when it's all said and done. I guess what I'm wondering... is if your views on marital fidelity are set in concrete, or if they're subject to change. My views on marital fidelity are pretty concrete, and he says that his are too, but only time will tell. Of course, his "views" most assuredly did NOT reflet this prior to D day! I am also working hard to feel better about myself. Even though I still "fly under the radar", I am taking baby steps to do some things to allow for more independence and self assurance on my part, should things not work out in the future. Believe me, I am a h--- of alot better off then I was even a year ago!!!

 

Thank soooo much for your caring and honest post to me. You will never know how much you helped me today...Please PM me anytime, and ladies in OW...Thank YOU again!!! I will keep coming back but am going to try to move around alittle more...at your suggestion...

[outofdarkness]

You're more than welcome and I didn't laugh at you.

 

I just read MoonGirl's post and found out that your husband had cheated on you more than once. May I ask for how long you've been married? Do you even consider leaving, given that you're unhappy with him? Are you employed? How old are the children?

 

Of course, you don't have to answer any of my questions. If you want to talk about it, we're here to listen and respond.

Thanks again for the advice. I can't answer your questions in specifice detail...Yes, we do have kids, yes I do have a career, and we've been m for 21 years. That's as much detail as I am comf. providing..Thanks again.

[outofdarkness]

Yep I agree.

 

And TBH I find it very hard to believe after 10 years of cheating he will all of a sudden stop. Maybe they can I don't know but 10 years is a long time.

 

I don't know how far off this is but if that was me and I still wanted to cheat I would make sure this time I did a better job of covering my tracks.

yep..I am aware that he would be extra careful to cover his tracks. This makes me even more frustrated, but as I've said, this is part of the "allure" of the A's for him. It just makes it more of a challenge and exciting..if he were to cheat now, that is...

[IpAncA]

yep..I am aware that he would be extra careful to cover his tracks. This makes me even more frustrated, but as I've said, this is part of the "allure" of the A's for him. It just makes it more of a challenge and exciting..if he were to cheat now, that is...

 

Oh so he likes doing that.

 

Well I do hope that you can find out and hopefully he's not and is telling the truth.

[Ladyjane14]

Every person on this earth is flawed. None of us were made to be perfect..I accept his flaws, but don't consider his addiction to be a "flaw" I consider it to be a part of him that he can not be cured of but keep under control...

 

I agree with you that none of us are perfect. You know, in terms of my own philosophical beliefs... I'm thinking maybe the whole purpose of life is to STRIVE for spiritual perfection. With that in mind, it's just fitting that we start out imperfect.

 

But honey, I'm not sure I really 'buy in' to the concept of sexual addiction as entirely causal in making poor choices. It looks good on paper, and it's easy to see how the effects on neurotransmitters can lean a person more towards one choice than towards another in physiological terms.... so I believe there IS merit in these ideas.

 

That said, the reality of the sex addict who's "acting out" is that he WILLINGLY look into the face of his mate, the one he purports to love... and lies to them habitually. In your case it was TEN YEARS of lies. Who knows, it might have been lies for the entire marriage.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think SA explains it all. It may increase the difficulty level in making good choices but I don't think it can MAKE those choices for us. I think there probably IS a character flaw already in place that made the lies easier to justify, something that allowed him to feel entitled. Add the sexual addiction behavior and you've got a CHEATING MACHINE on your hands.

 

Honey, I wish you the best, and I hope I'm wrong ... but I think it's probably a little bit naive to expect that this is never going to happen again. Unless that character trait is identified and addressed, I think it WILL happen again. If you continue to deny it as a "flaw", you give him tacit permission to do the same. In that case, neither of you is dealing with the reality of the situation.

 

You've said very strongly that fidelity is important to you, a deal-breaker. But I'm not sure I believe that. I think it's pretty clear that he doesn't either. Because at the bottom line, it wasn't a "deal-breaker". He's cheated on you for half the marriage (that you know of), and then explained the behavior away as sexual addiction. I think maybe you believe he 'couldn't help himself' and you know what? ... I think if he does it again, he'll call it a "slip-up" and you'll buy that too.

 

I can't blame you a bit for hanging in there though. You've spent more than half your life with him. And I do believe that people are capable of growth and change. If they weren't... my whole personal philosophy would be shot down in flames. But I think you need to deal with REALITIES as you face your future. If you don't, you're likely to be dealing with constant anxiety instead.

 

The REALITY is that this guy needs to SHOW YOU his changes. He needs to EARN his way for as long as it takes. He cheated on you for ten years... so if he must live his life transparently for an additional ten years, that's a penance he should be eager to pay, not something he should give only grudgingly because he HAS to in order to keep his home deal going.

 

THIS is where you dig the flaw out. Honesty, Transparency, and Reassurance.... given eagerly. These are the things that YOU need in order to heal. And he should WANT to give you those things. The "flaw" resides in whatever reason he has for NOT "wanting" to give you what you need.

 

Like I said before, it's hard to live in the doghouse in perpetuity, and even a WS who has betrayed his mate BLATANTLY will be reluctant to do so. But that's not what we're talking about. We're not talking about 'punishment', we're talking about "EARNING" trust. IOW, a penance, like prolonged transparency, is one that he sets for himself. It should NOT be seen as a punitive action taken by his betrayed spouse. At that point, YOU aren't the one keeping him on "a short leash"... he is.

 

My advice to you would be to talk this over with him again and see if you can make him understand the difference. The "out-of-town" visits are still an issue. He needs to be giving you whatever reassurance that's necessary... including canceling trips or taking you along. He should be EAGER to do that. If he's not, you need to know the reason why.

 

In the meantime... your job should be to STOP stressing yourself out. Realize that his fidelity (or lack thereof) is out of your hands. "Checking" has become your "woobie".... a security blanket. I don't expect you to go 'cold turkey', but this is no way to live your life either. I think maybe it's time to start planning proactively for a day when you can "put the woobie down" and not give a crap what happens when you do.

 

You get there by realizing that WHATEVER comes next... it's gonna be something you'll be ready and capable of handling. You develop confidence in yourself that you'll 'cross that bridge when you come to it' by working on your own individuality and learning to have faith in YOU.

[outofdarkness]

just wanted you to know, ladyjane, that I have read your reply and want to get back to you...everyone here has had the flu all week an it's been crazy. Plus you know when guys get sick, they are like kids! So I have not 2 but three kids!!! Thanks and will get back to u as soon as I can!