Storyrider Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 My older daughter had her first reconciliation (confession) in the Catholic church today. Being Jewish, this is a strange, mixed experience for me. I saw her baptized as an infant, but this is the next big life cycle event within the church that I have experienced with her. I agreed to do things this way for many good reasons. My husband is a practicing Catholic who prays daily and whose life and career are dedicated to The Church. I, on the other hand, was raised a participating but secular Jew by agnostic parents. My beliefs are a hodge-podge, and I usually pray when I'm in trouble over my head and want someone else to get me out of it. I have had more spiritual times in my life, as when I first came to believe in God, but it usually subsides to a very casual relationship with religion at best. So I feel good about my choice to let my husband lead in this, and I can see my daughter flourishing in this environment. However, the little details I'm confronted with, just within an hour at church, are like nails on a chalkboard to me. When they say things like "Christ suffered and died for your sins," It is just so alien to me. I'm intellectually aware that this is the heart of Christianity and what I've agreed to teach my daughters. But when my three year old gazes at the crucifix and innocently asks my husband whether Jesus was alive or dead when they stuck the nails in him, it just makes me cringe. It is visceral. I often wonder if I'll ever get over this love/hate relationship with the religion embraced by the rest of my immediate family. I am obviously an outsider in the Church. But I'm also an outsider among Jews b/c of the path I've chosen. I sometimes secretly believe Christianity is probably true (not an invitation to proselytize me, please!) But I suspect I might never be able to swallow it. After being brought up Jewish, I feel constitutionally unable to take it--like I'm allergic to it. Her first communion is in May. I'm a little worried I will cry and not know whether it is happiness or sadness. Link to post Share on other sites
magichands Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 So I feel good about my choice to let my husband lead in this, and I can see my daughter flourishing in this environment. A value system - whatever the flavour - is a great thing. And I do believe we all decide our own path in the end. Smile... because you have a wonderful daughter. Daughters. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 oh bless you. it's not easy for you, i can see that. since leaving the catholic church i have become unable to say the responses (on those occasions i do go to church like when my five-year-old nephew was so thrilled to be chosen to light the advent candle) without a good deal of swallowing back my true beliefs. this christmas was the first for me as a non-Catholic and i went to a carol service with my parents as i do every year and felt unable to join in. i just don't believe those things any more and cannot say them without cringing. i have several thoughts about your post. 1. it's years since you and your husband agreed to raise your children catholic, and if you are struggling to maintain the same level of enthusiasm now that you had then, talk to him about it. faith is something that often changes a little with time and you are entitled to feel a little differently about it now. these things are often easy in theory. 2. perhaps it is time to introduce your daughter (if you have not already) to your faith or the faith from your side of the family. that could be agnostic or jewish, it doesn't matter. but i do think it's useful to know that one particular faith isn't the only way. if your husband DOES believe that one faith is the only way, this could pose a problem. but i certainly think it's healthy for a child to grow up thinking that more than one religion or point of view is valid. 3. secretly or not, if you thought a particular religion was true, you'd be able to swallow it. we are all answerable to ourselves only and if you genuinely felt christianity was the way for you to go, you'd do it. your culture and upbringing would not mean more to you than knowing or practising what you believed to be the truth. 4. about you crying in may. religious faith develops slowly and generally it wanes slowly too. if you have any concerns about your daughter doing 'the wrong thing' because of how her religion makes you feel, remember that nothing is for ever. she will soon enough be able to make her own choices and they may well differ from the path she's now taking. although i am no longer a catholic, that part of my life was necessary to my spiritual growth and i'm grateful for it. what i mean is, she is not joining something from which there is no way out, should a way out be needed. she is not being damaged by what she's going through. so there really is no need to be sad. you and your husband made a decision about her religious instruction, but she is answerable for her own life and you are doing the best you can to give her a grounding in something important. that is never a mistake or a cause for sadness. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted February 10, 2007 Share Posted February 10, 2007 But I suspect I might never be able to swallow it. you will never be able to swallow it....the problem with religion is that it must be instilled at a very young age so that it brainwashed the child into accepting that religion and rejecting all others... Her first communion is in May. I'm a little worried I will cry and not know whether it is happiness or sadness. you will be crying cause you know in your heart that you should be raising jewish children. there are so few jews already that everyone counts and none can be spared. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 A value system - whatever the flavour - is a great thing. And I do believe we all decide our own path in the end. Smile... because you have a wonderful daughter. Daughters. Yes. The values are good. And she has a spiritual life, which I completely lacked as a child. I don't regret my decision in that regard. . perhaps it is time to introduce your daughter (if you have not already) to your faith or the faith from your side of the family. that could be agnostic or jewish, it doesn't matter. but i do think it's useful to know that one particular faith isn't the only way. if your husband DOES believe that one faith is the only way, this could pose a problem. but i certainly think it's healthy for a child to grow up thinking that more than one religion or point of view is valid. I am happy to say we expose them to Judaism a lot. They know the Sh'ma, we celebrate the major holidays and light shabbat candles when I have my act together. They know they are both Jewish and Catholic, although most other religious Jews won't acknowledge that status as valid. 3. secretly or not, if you thought a particular religion was true, you'd be able to swallow it. we are all answerable to ourselves only and if you genuinely felt Christianity was the way for you to go, you'd do it. your culture and upbringing would not mean more to you than knowing or practising what you believed to be the truth. I am in total limbo when it comes to my own beliefs. Remember the old (fairly bad) Depeche Mode song "Personal Jesus"? It is almost like my husband has become my religious touch stone or crutch. I have faith in him even if I can't quite swallow the Jesus thing. And he has faith all the way. about you crying in may. religious faith develops slowly and generally it wanes slowly too. if you have any concerns about your daughter doing 'the wrong thing' because of how her religion makes you feel, remember that nothing is for ever. she will soon enough be able to make her own choices and they may well differ from the path she's now taking. although i am no longer a catholic, that part of my life was necessary to my spiritual growth and i'm grateful for it. what i mean is, she is not joining something from which there is no way out, should a way out be needed. she is not being damaged by what she's going through. so there really is no need to be sad. you and your husband made a decision about her religious instruction, but she is answerable for her own life and you are doing the best you can to give her a grounding in something important. that is never a mistake or a cause for sadness. Thanks. I appreciate that. I don't think I have regrets about my kids. I'm just not sure what to do with myself. I think the truths and concepts of Catholic Christianity appeal to me on a certain level, and I like the ritual in general, but the rhetoric and imagery freak me out, and I'm afraid they always will. I am disillusioned in Conservative/Reform Judaism as well. It doesn't provide enough "spiritual juice," as far as I'm concerned, when the rubber hits the road. It is possible to grow up Jewish today and ignore God almost entirely. you will never be able to swallow it....the problem with religion is that it must be instilled at a very young age so that it brainwashed the child into accepting that religion and rejecting all others... Brainwashing might be a little strong. But it is true Jews are actually taught lots of negative things about Christianity from an early age, and that is easy to unlearn intellectually but hard emotionally. you will be crying cause you know in your heart that you should be raising jewish children. there are so few jews already that everyone counts and none can be spared. This is a serious piece of the guilt I feel. We are taught how people died to stay Jewish over the centuries. My only consolation is that they do consider themselves Jews, even if the community denies them. Link to post Share on other sites
Porn_Guy Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 This is a serious piece of the guilt I feel. We are taught how people died to stay Jewish over the centuries. My only consolation is that they do consider themselves Jews, even if the community denies them. well SR....it is of little consequence. When the children grown older they will most likely consider themselves Jews. Mainly cause there are many more advantages to being a Jew than a Christian in this society. Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Were you married in Catholic Chruch? my brother married a Catholic. i recall he had to sign a document that the Children would be raised Catholic. i suspect that your husband isn't dogmatic. It would hard to be that way and be married to a Jew. I am sure you are aware no matter how your daughters are raised they will always be Jewish. Try to look at the positive side of Christianity. The teaching of forgiveness, charity and Love for your follow men. the crucifixtion I can see would be hard for you. The Gospel of John is not very kind to Jews. You and your husband need to come to an agreement as to what you will teach them at home. Do you follow any Jewish traditions at Home? sit Seder? Observe Yon Kippur? I may have butcher the spelling here. I am not Jewish. keep in mind That Jesus was Jewish. I have a Jewish friend that says he loves Christmas he loves it that Christians like to celabrate the birth of a Jew. Link to post Share on other sites
Porn_Guy Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Try to look at the positive side of Christianity. The teaching of forgiveness, charity and Love for your follow men. um...last I checked all major religions preach that stuff. Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Yes they all do, Since her kids are in a Catholic Chruch I was attempting to give her something to temper the teachings of The crucifixion and the Passion. the Gospel of John is almost a corner stone of the catholic faith it blames Jews for the death of Jesus. What do you mean there are more advantages to being Jewish. today? By the way since she is Jewish and the Jewish family lineage follows the Mother Her Kids no matter what are Jewish. if they want to become citizens of Israel they can. Even if they practice Catholicism by Rabbinical law they are Jewish. Link to post Share on other sites
Porn_Guy Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 What do you mean there are more advantages to being Jewish. today? . because I see many more successful and well-educated jews than I do christians (percentage-wise) Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 because I see many more successful and well-educated jews than I do christians (percentage-wise) Yes, but in certain parts of the country like where I live, it's NOT an advantage. I'm afraid to wear my Star of David necklace for fear that people around here might mistake it for the Wiccan pentagon. Being a Jew in the Bible Belt is most assuredly NOT an advantage. Anyway, Story I can relate so much to your situation. Take comfort in knowing that you're at least teaching them about the Jewish religion. My husband is a Southern Babtist (non-practicing) and I'm Jewish. We agreed to raise our son as a Jew. But I've taught him precious little about our traditions and of our religion/history. At least you're doing something! As a side note: I wasn't raised with any kind of education when it comes to religion, but yet I'm now being criticized for not passing it on to our son. Link to post Share on other sites
polywog Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 I am an ex Catholic, and am grateful that I was raised with all the mystical spiritual rituals of the RC Church. My best friend was raised with non-practicing Jewish and Baptist parents, and like you disturbed when she has attended churches by the "Jesus" stuff, the apparent anti-Jewish tone which Christians don't seem to notice (tho I always did, even as a kid). I think that the fact that your daughter is participating in these rituals is giving her a rich spiritual base that will give her a deeper life, whatever she ends up believing when she grows up. There's just something about being part of something bigger as well as historical that provides some foundation for being a better human for some of us, even if we eschew it later in life. Not to mention that it teaches kindness, etc. I won't be a practicing RC again until the church ordains women, lets priests marry, and accepts gays, but my values and the things I think are my strengths are at least partly because I was raised with religion. I think it's great that you celebrate both the Jewish and Catholic holidays, I'm jealous. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Were you married in Catholic Chruch? my brother married a Catholic. i recall he had to sign a document that the Children would be raised Catholic. i suspect that your husband isn't dogmatic. We were married by a rabbi with two dispensations from the C Church so they would accept the marriage as valid. It is not considered sacrimental. Yes, I had to agree to raise them Catholic. My husband has firm opinions but is tolerant and respectful of others. I am sure you are aware no matter how your daughters are raised they will always be Jewish. Yes, although Jews who accept Christ are considered to be apostate Jews. But if they ever wanted to leave the Church they would require no conversion process. Try to look at the positive side of Christianity. The teaching of forgiveness, charity and Love for your follow men. I see many, many positives. Like I said, it is almost a love/hate thing. And the fact that Jesus was Jewish is a big deal to our family. We do celebrate as many Jewish holidays as we can. I think Alpha is right that the Jewish tradition values education and success, and my kids can still benefit from that. They still have a Jewish grandmother to nag them! (just kidding) Yes, but in certain parts of the country like where I live, it's NOT an advantage. I'm afraid to wear my Star of David necklace for fear that people around here might mistake it for the Wiccan pentagon. Being a Jew in the Bible Belt is most assuredly NOT an advantage. You have to take the good with the bad I guess. They would still have been considered Jewish in Nazi Germany too. As a side note: I wasn't raised with any kind of education when it comes to religion, but yet I'm now being criticized for not passing it on to our son. Do you mean by your side of the family? Yeah, I wonder that my parents are surprised at my choices--they made it abundantly clear during my childhood that they care about the rituals of Judaism but think the God stuff is a load of hooey. By the way Touche, your signature really made me laugh. Did you make that up? Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Success has little to do with being Jewish except that traditionally Jews are are strong believers in Education. The better educated you are the more chances you have at being sucessful. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 I think it's great that you celebrate both the Jewish and Catholic holidays, I'm jealous. Lol, I have to admit I like the tree and I love Christmas carols. My husband can't carry a tune so I have to sing really loud to make it sound pretty. Link to post Share on other sites
Touche Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Success has little to do with being Jewish except that traditionally Jews are are strong believers in Education. The better educated you are the more chances you have at being sucessful. EXACTLY! Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites
Porn_Guy Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Success has little to do with being Jewish except that traditionally Jews are are strong believers in Education. The better educated you are the more chances you have at being sucessful. yes i knew that, thank you... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 All my Jewish education doesn't help my confusion when Porn_Guy and Alpha post on the same thread. Link to post Share on other sites
polywog Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Lol, I have to admit I like the tree and I love Christmas carols. My husband can't carry a tune so I have to sing really loud to make it sound pretty. Maybe this is something about Catholics. We kids used to go nuts in church listening to all the tone-deaf parishoners and priests bellowing out responses and hymns during high mass. At least synagogues have those fancy and talented cantors! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 Maybe this is something about Catholics. We kids used to go nuts in church listening to all the tone-deaf parishoners and priests bellowing out responses and hymns during high mass. At least synagogues have those fancy and talented cantors! Yeah, today my h. was singing in his way, and this totally tone deaf lady behind us too, and the song was something like: "Christ is life, Christ is light," and I just had to start singing too just to drown them out. Oh well. Another interesting deficit in the C. church is all the bad homilies. Not necessarily the subject matter, but bad rhetoric, awkward pacing, rambling on with no point, jumping around, and just being plain boring. I think rabbis must have a lot of training in speech rhetoric and delivery, b/c they are pretty good at creating a well-organized, entertaining sermon, even if God doesn't once get mention. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Another interesting deficit in the C. church is all the bad homilies. Not necessarily the subject matter, but bad rhetoric, awkward pacing, rambling on with no point, jumping around, and just being plain boring. . god help you if you ever get stuck at a traditional catholic wedding. the ceremony is like 2 hours long and will bore you out of your skull...I went to one a few yrs ago and was almost crying from the boredom Link to post Share on other sites
Author Storyrider Posted February 11, 2007 Author Share Posted February 11, 2007 god help you if you ever get stuck at a traditional catholic wedding. the ceremony is like 2 hours long and will bore you out of your skull...I went to one a few yrs ago and was almost crying from the boredom I went to an Eastern Rite wedding last year that was super long like that. Luckily my then two-year old couldn't hack it and I had to take her out. Link to post Share on other sites
polywog Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 Yeah, today my h. was singing in his way, and this totally tone deaf lady behind us too, and the song was something like: "Christ is life, Christ is light," and I just had to start singing too just to drown them out. Oh well. Another interesting deficit in the C. church is all the bad homilies. Not necessarily the subject matter, but bad rhetoric, awkward pacing, rambling on with no point, jumping around, and just being plain boring. LOL!! This is bringing back awful flashbacks! My non-practicing RC sister lives in Germany with her non-religious H and two daughters who were born there. She decided she'd like them to go thru the RC thing like we did and experience all that so they went to CCD and the confession/communion sacrament schtick. My sister just assumed that the gorgeous renaissance church in her lovely old town would have fabulous services and beautiful music....NOT!!! She was dismayed to encounter all the ugly music and shoddy services that we grew up with! To add insult to injury, my whip-smart skeptical nieces make fun of the sissy priest who instructed them, and don't take him seriously! They are like pre-fabbed ex RCs, those girls.... Link to post Share on other sites
Topper Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 ceramonie might be Boring but if it is an Irish Catholic or Italian Catholic I guarantee You will have a good time at the reception Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted February 11, 2007 Share Posted February 11, 2007 ceramonie might be Boring but if it is an Irish Catholic or Italian Catholic I guarantee You will have a good time at the reception yea i guess after that long boring ceremony you'd want to get hammered Link to post Share on other sites
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