happy and cringing at the same time?

[WilliR]

I don't see why people make such a huge distinction between Christianity and Judaism.

 

Jesus was Jewish. Jesus celebrated all of the Jewish holidays during His life. I was raised Episcopalian/Catholic but as I've grown older I've never really understood why Christmas is such a huge deal - Jesus didn't celebrate Christmas, and never asked us to have a huge celebration every year to commemorate His birthday. Not that I don't love Christmas it's the best time of the year what with the cookies and presents and all. But still, from a Biblical point of view I don't see where it comes from. I don't know very much about the jewish holidays or which ones are recent or ancient but it seems like if hannukah was celebrated during Jesus' life, shouldn't we honor His beliefs by celebrating what He celebrated too rather than making up new holidays that He never asked for, or at least integrate them somehow?

 

I was invited to a passover once in college and I remember thinking at the time that it would be like following in the footsteps of the Lord to observe the very same rituals He did during His life. Then I felt vaguely surprised that Catholics don't observe passover with Him to this day. It was weird actually LIVING part of His life by praying and eating the same passover foods that He did. So I found it kind of an amazing experience. Since passover was deeply special to Jesus througout His entire life, how could we leave that out of Easter? Then I thought about it and couldn't come up with any reason why, or when exactly Christians stopped celebrating passover. Does anyone know when or why it happened? Now having written this, the more I think about it the more odd it seems. But anyhow. I don't think Christianity must be a wholesale shirking of the Jewish faith. It is a religion dedicated to the life of one particular Jew. In my honest opinion, we should bring back more of the traditional jewish holidays and scripture because how can we understand Jesus's life if we ignore the very things he believed in? If anything they bring us closer to the life He led. I also remember being fascinated by a dradle they showed us in Episcopal kindergarten, when the teacher told me it was the sort of toy that baby Jesus would have played with.

[alphamale]

I don't see why people make such a huge distinction between Christianity and Judaism.

i don't see why people make any distinction among any religion. they're all basically the same on paper with some minor differences.

[whichwayisup]

All my Jewish education doesn't help my confusion when Porn_Guy and Alpha post on the same thread.

 

I think I've peed my pants!

 

Wouldn't your daughter still be Jewish, though? I mean, as far as I know, I thought in the Jewish culture, kids follow their mom's religion. Later in life she could choose to know about both, and I think that's a good thing to have the understanding of her background, religion wise.

[Storyrider]

I don't see why people make such a huge distinction between Christianity and Judaism.

 

 

 

Jesus was Jewish. Jesus celebrated all of the Jewish holidays during His life. I was raised Episcopalian/Catholic but as I've grown older I've never really understood why Christmas is such a huge deal - Jesus didn't celebrate Christmas, and never asked us to have a huge celebration every year to commemorate His birthday. Not that I don't love Christmas it's the best time of the year what with the cookies and presents and all. But still, from a Biblical point of view I don't see where it comes from. I don't know very much about the jewish holidays or which ones are recent or ancient but it seems like if hannukah was celebrated during Jesus' life, shouldn't we honor His beliefs by celebrating what He celebrated too rather than making up new holidays that He never asked for, or at least integrate them somehow?

 

 

I was invited to a passover once in college and I remember thinking at the time that it would be like following in the footsteps of the Lord to observe the very same rituals He did during His life. Then I felt vaguely surprised that Catholics don't observe passover with Him to this day. It was weird actually LIVING part of His life by praying and eating the same passover foods that He did. So I found it kind of an amazing experience. Since passover was deeply special to Jesus througout His entire life, how could we leave that out of Easter? Then I thought about it and couldn't come up with any reason why, or when exactly Christians stopped celebrating passover. Does anyone know when or why it happened? Now having written this, the more I think about it the more odd it seems. But anyhow. I don't think Christianity must be a wholesale shirking of the Jewish faith. It is a religion dedicated to the life of one particular Jew. In my honest opinion, we should bring back more of the traditional jewish holidays and scripture because how can we understand Jesus's life if we ignore the very things he believed in? If anything they bring us closer to the life He led. I also remember being fascinated by a dradle they showed us in Episcopal kindergarten, when the teacher told me it was the sort of toy that baby Jesus would have played with.

 

 

I have often asked my husband many of these questions. For example, early Christians eventually abolished the Kosher laws, only to resurrect (no pun intended) new rules about food later on, with fish on Fridays, etc. The legalism that early followers of C. saw as a problem in Judaism also returned in different forms in Catholicism.

 

 

Second, the church became so rooted in Rome as opposed to Judea, so that also caused the Jewish rituals to be usurped.

 

And then original Jews like Paul who became Christian were quickly outnumbered by the gentile Christians and they failed to maintain influence. Sometimes I wish more had stayed in the church so it would have a more Jewish feel, as you mention.

 

There is definitely a movement toward a returning to recognize Jewish roots. Many churches do celebrate passover. There are even special orders of priests who incorporate Hebrew prayers into the mass.

 

Another poster here, Burning 4 Revenge, seems to know a lot about this historical period and if he happens on this thread might be able to answer your question better.

From my understanding the rejection of Jewish traditions happened for two reasons. First, because Paul decided not to require the gentile followers of Christ to become circumcised or follow kosher laws. Gradually, the entire group of followers ceased to do these things, and I guess many of the other Jewish rituals went away too.

[Topper]

WilliR look up some of my post on early Christian Chruch History. I would post more but but I am getting afraid of some of the Christians here.

In short the christian Holidays that are now celebrated were once pagan Roman Holidays For good effect Christmas is spiced up with ancient German Pagan traditions. Tree worship anyone?

[Storyrider]

I think I've peed my pants!

 

Wouldn't your daughter still be Jewish, though? I mean, as far as I know, I thought in the Jewish culture, kids follow their mom's religion. Later in life she could choose to know about both, and I think that's a good thing to have the understanding of her background, religion wise.

 

Yes, she is automatically Jewish and can return to Judaism without converting. And she will always be Jewish as far as I'm concerned, no matter how Christian she is.

 

I did send both my girls to Jewish preschool so they could get the basics of Judaism.

 

yea i guess after that long boring ceremony you'd want to get hammered

 

And that is one thing that Catholics in Jews have in common--we like to drink and eat a lot at celebrations!

 

I'll never forget the first time I went to a Southern Baptist wedding reception. A bowl of nuts, and a bowl of mints, and punch. Huh? Where's the food? Where's the booze?

[Topper]

The Chruch in Roman also did a good job of burning any and all books that they disagreed with. As well as killing other Christians if they did not fall in line with Rome. The victors get to write the history. that is pretty much what happened

[burning 4 revenge]

Another poster here, Burning 4 Revenge, seems to know a lot about this historical period and if he happens on this thread might be able to answer your question better.

The church was modeled after Roman customs and so everything we associate with Catholicism is a descendant of ancient pagan rituals and practice. Aspects of celebration such as transubstantiation come from the mystery cults

[Star Gazer]

A value system - whatever the flavour - is a great thing. And I do believe we all decide our own path in the end.

 

 

Oh how very, very true this is!!

 

I was raised in a practicing Catholic home. Confession, First Communion...but wasn't confirmed. On the day I was to be confirmed, I looked at my mother and said, "I don't want to do this - I don't think I believe it." She said okay, and that was that.

 

Storyrider, I find it interesting that you somewhat think Christianity may be true. We're essentially in reversed roles. I grew up very much aware of other religions - our neighborhood was very diverse - and as a result, by the time I was confirmation-age, I "decided" I was actually a Jew. Hahaha, I know I can't just "decide", but my beliefs are much more in tune with Judaism than Catholicism... and as a result, I found myself chasing after all the cute Jewish boys once I moved to L.A.

 

With all that said, I am very thankful for my Catholic upbringing. I don't think it matters so much that it was Catholic so much as that it was faith-based and involved a community of believers.

 

However, you say that no matter what she'll always be Jewish - is that really true? I know the "if-the-mother-is-Jewish" rule generally applies, but if your daughter becomes confirmed, that's essentially as serious as converting to Judaism - you're confirming yourself to be Catholic. I'm not sure what the Judaic rules are, but I would assume some sort of conversion process would be necessary if she goes all the way to confirmation...?

[Topper]

I'm not 100% sure but I would say no matter what the Children are Jewish. Jews are not just a religion, They are a people a race and a culture all in one. Of course you can as a non Jew become a Jew. I don't know the process. The Rabbi might want to have a sit down with the kids. Explain a few things to them.

[Storyrider]

but my beliefs are much more in tune with Judaism than Catholicism... and as a result, I found myself chasing after all the cute Jewish boys once I moved to L.A.

 

Star Gazer, I do think that certain religions appeal to individual personalities, which is, in general, a good thing because it allows more avenues for people to come to a faith.

 

However, you say that no matter what she'll always be Jewish - is that really true? I know the "if-the-mother-is-Jewish" rule generally applies, but if your daughter becomes confirmed, that's essentially as serious as converting to Judaism - you're confirming yourself to be Catholic. I'm not sure what the Judaic rules are, but I would assume some sort of conversion process would be necessary if she goes all the way to confirmation...?

 

If she is confirmed in the Catholic Church, Judaism will consider her an apostate Jew, which means she is a Jew who believes false things. If she wanted to go in front of the Jewish congregation and read from the Torah, I don't know if they would let her do it or not. But if she ever decided to renounce Catholicism, she would not have to go through a conversion process. She would be able to return automatically with full privileges.

 

Now on the other hand, in the eyes of the Church, she can be what is called a Hebrew Catholic; so long as she embraces the central tenants of Catholicism, she can continue to practice some aspects of Judaism as well. The Church also does this for other cultures, such as Native Americans, allowing them to retain their cultural identity.

[Topper]

Thanks Storyrider, My ex is Jewish on her mothers side of her Family. Her mother became a Christian, before my ex was born. After we were married, She wanted to know about the Jewish side of her roots. So she went to her Aunts and Uncles They assured her she was in fact Jewish and always would be. She explored that part of her roots for a short time. She was and is not a religious person. I was more enthusiastic about the Jewish faith then she was.

Who knows if you raise your kids to be good loving people it will not matter what camp they fall in with if any. They just might grow up to be Happy and that would be the best of all.

[Star Gazer]

Now on the other hand, in the eyes of the Church, she can be what is called a Hebrew Catholic; so long as she embraces the central tenants of Catholicism, she can continue to practice some aspects of Judaism as well. The Church also does this for other cultures, such as Native Americans, allowing them to retain their cultural identity.

 

Wow, you really know your stuff! This is what I want to be - can I just BE that??

[Topper]

Star gazer, Your soooooo purddy yuall can be whtever you wanta be. As long as you say yull be mine my darlin. ( doing my best Gomer T. Pile accent )

[Storyrider]

Wow, you really know your stuff! This is what I want to be - can I just BE that??

 

Haha. Marry a nice Jewish boy and then it will all come together.

 

Well, actually, you might be able to find a community in your area that practices Catholicism this way. However, I think these communities are made of up of fairly religious, observant Catholics. I know of one in my area that is almost like a commune. I'm not involved with it though, so I don't have any direct information.

[burning 4 revenge]

Storyrider, do you really believe in any of this? I think both the Catholic and the Jewish traditions are beautiful and I see them as being two of the oldest institutions that shaped who we are now. The Catholic church is an extension of our Roman past that gave us the basis for our language, our alphabet, our government, many fundamental aspects of our infrastucture, our holidays, our calender, and the list could go on and on.

 

The Israelites, a small group of people living in a provincial backwater, turned the world on it's head by giving us our sense of morality and respect for life. Ironically this was accomplished through Christianity. Many Jews like to distance themselves from Christianity, but it was through the medium of Christianity that the dark pagan world was philosphically revolutioned into thinking of the sanctity of life from the Jewish perspective. There was no such thing (in the west) as a Ten Commandments and the idea of treating your neighbor as you should like to be treated yourself until the Roman world adopted the Old Testament as their own through Christianity. I'm not capable of truly explaining what I sense, because what happened was so truly profound, but what I'm getting at is the Jewsih people gave us the concept of human rights and that is truly a marvelous and beautiful thing. Jews shouldn't be disdainful of Christianity, but proud of it, because through it the world advanced from barbarism and I don't think the world stood a chance without the children of Abraham.

[magichands]

Dude, have you been drinking? If so, then don't stop now. More, more, more. We want more.

[burning 4 revenge]

Dude, have you been drinking? If so, then don't stop now. More, more, more. We want more.

No I haven't been drinking, I'm just a terrible typist. I was going to edit the post, but I was watching TV and when I came back I couldn't.

 

Thanks for the compliment. This is one of those subjects I have strong feelings about and you can see I'm not so good at playing the nihilist all of the time.

[Topper]

B4 Revenge,

The Greeks had a pretty good grasp on many of the thing you sight as being Jewish and christian long before Jesus walked the earth. They also had a big influence on Rome.

Seven of the ten Commandments deal with how to Worship and or respect God.

If the early Roman Chruch had actually practised anything remotely like the teaching of Jesus. Western civilization would be far more advance spiritually, Philosophical and scientifically.

The Roman Catholic Chruch directly held back Western Civilization for at least a 1000 years. I have to wonder how many enlightened people were put to death how much Knowledge was lost in the name of Christ?

It really doesn't take a genius to see why Jews would distance themselves from Christians. 2000 years worth of Christian persecution might just make you a little shy to warm up to Christians.

In the same two thousand years Jews in the middle east lived in relative peace while living in Islamic nations. For 1000s of years large populations of Jews lived and thrived in Damascus, Tehran and Baghdad. Often holding positions of authority in civil service jobs. The hatred did not really show up untill sometime around WWI

[Storyrider]

Storyrider, do you really believe in any of this? I think both the Catholic and the Jewish traditions are beautiful and I see them as being two of the oldest institutions that shaped who we are now. The Catholic church is an extension of our Roman past that gave us the basis for our language, our alphabet, our government, many fundamental aspects of our infrastucture, our holidays, our calender, and the list could go on and on.

 

The Israelites, a small group of people living in a provincial backwater, turned the world on it's head by giving us our sense of morality and respect for life. Ironically this was accomplished through Christianity. Many Jews like to distance themselves from Christianity, but it was through the medium of Christianity that the dark pagan world was philosphically revolutioned into thinking of the sanctity of life from the Jewish perspective. There was no such thing (in the west) as a Ten Commandments and the idea of treating your neighbor as you should like to be treated yourself until the Roman world adopted the Old Testament as their own through Christianity. I'm not capable of truly explaining what I sense, because what happened was so truly profound, but what I'm getting at is the Jewsih people gave us the concept of human rights and that is truly a marvelous and beautiful thing. Jews shouldn't be disdainful of Christianity, but proud of it, because through it the world advanced from barbarism and I don't think the world stood a chance without the children of Abraham.

 

burning, I agree with everything you wrote.

 

And I agree that many Jews are disdainful of Christianity. I most definitely am not, and I hope I didn't come across that way. I feel emotional and physical pain sometimes in a knee-jerk reaction to some of the verbiage and symbolism of Christianity. I'm not sure why.

 

I believe that the the prophesy that Abraham's descendants would be as numerous as the stars refers to the legacy of Christianity.

 

I agree with you that Judaism revolutionized the world through Christianity. People think an eye for an eye sounds harsh, but they don't realize this was an antidote to much darker pagan traditions, such as killing someone's entire family as a punishment for something minor.

 

To add on to what you already said about justice and human rights, science as we know it today would be impossible without monotheism.

 

Take astronomy as an example. Many pagans worshipped the stars as deities and could not study them as natural phenomena as long as they were deified. Not until monotheism came on the scene could we begin to study the stars as bodies in space.

 

I'm not an atheist or an agnostic, but I'm often angry at, in rebellion against God. I try to worship directly as a Jew when I can get up the will power to go to synagogue. And when I end up in church I often find myself praying, when I'm not holding back tears or cringing.

 

But I'm lazy and wrapped up in myself. So my contact with the spiritual is often minimal.

 

I very much appreciate what you wrote b4r.

[Storyrider]

Note to self: must change paragraphs often so magic doesn't rap knuckes with ruler.

[burning 4 revenge]

B4 Revenge,

The Greeks had a pretty good grasp on many of the thing you sight as being Jewish and christian long before Jesus walked the earth. They also had a big influence on Rome.

It's interesting that you mention that, because the Greeks had the biggest cultural influence on Rome and yet it wasn't until Rome was Christianized (Judaized) that the Colosseum ceased being used for collective sadism.

 

I know that there were ethical concepts in some Greek philosophy and I wouldn't want to dismiss them. When I read of the ancient world, however, it seems a rather harsh and brutish place where life was cheap...except amongst the Jews. It's impossible to concieve of the Jews going out to watch men slaughter each other for sport, because it would be anathema to them, to their God, to their identity as a people. The Commandments might have focused on respect for Jehova, yes, but what was Jehova if not an embodiment of ethics and respect for life? Where else in the ancient world were there a people like this?

[Topper]

If you ask most people they would site the fall of the roman empire as a time of great moral corruption and decadence. yet the fall comes when Rome is a Christian state. It was in decline to be sure but was still a place of learning and science of the day. I think the advance of Christianity was a one step forward two step back march into the future. On one hand we have the teaching of Jesus a core message I do believe in. On the other the messages while preaching the message of love were torturing and killing those that disagreed with them. I don't see the years from the 4th Century untill the 14th century as being a vast improvement on mans treatment of his fellow man. Some of the most cruel and sickening devices ever known were invented by the good christians. This era might have been even more barbaric, Just less organized.

I keep thinking if the true message had been thought if the message of a new covenant with God had been spread with love rather then the sward would we as a whole be better of today?

It is my firm believe that the Real Christianity was lost and is just now starting to reemerge. The dead sea scrolls, the discovery of the Gnostic books at Nag Hammadi and even newer discoveries are starting to shed some light on a this time.

[Storyrider]

On one hand we have the teaching of Jesus a core message I do believe in. On the other the messages while preaching the message of love were torturing and killing those that disagreed with them. I don't see the years from the 4th Century untill the 14th century as being a vast improvement on mans treatment of his fellow man. Some of the most cruel and sickening devices ever known were invented by the good christians. This era might have been even more barbaric, Just less organized.

 

One can't argue with the historical fact that the Church is responsible for some major death and mayhem. It was an all powerful institution for centuries with no checks on it and therefore it was subject to corruption.

 

(It is partly thanks to the US and the advent and spread of democracy that modern churches are able to operate in a less corrupt manner.)

 

I do think it is especially popular right now to pick on the Catholic Church. My dad got really wrapped up in the Da Vinci Code while as far as I know he has never actually read the New Testament or any historical works about Constantine. He called me one day ranting about Opus Dei and conspiracies. He lives near where the priest/sex scandals took place, so he has obviously been affected by that too.

 

There is an imbalance though, I feel, in the level of negative attention to given to the Church, and the blame placed on religion in general, for evil in the world. Stalinism and Nazism and Maoism were all secular movements.

[burning 4 revenge]

Topper, read some Tacitus, Seutonius, Dio Cassio and some other Roman historians. Read about the kinds of lives the Caesars led and get a flavor of how the masses lived in Ancient Rome. Read about the Greeks from Herodotus and Thucidydes. Better than the Romans, yes, but not by much. Then contrast that to how the Israelites lived in historical parts of the Bible such as Kings and Macabees. It's a huge contrast. Then look at life in the Medieval world. Much bloodshed, yes, but only because the European palatte had developed a taste for it through it's past and even then the excesses of kings like Edward, or Henry VIII seem pale in comparison to Tiberius and Caligula.

 

Christianity had a huge impact in changing the way people thinked. People continued to be horrible, but they did this in spite of the religious paradigm, not because of it. And that's not to mention that the church perverted Christianity when it became ambitious.

 

As far as Nag Hamadi goes, I think it's a fascinating look at the different approaches to Christianity in the early years ,but I don't think it reflects the original movement. The religious ideas in the Dead Sea Scrolls seem to be much more compatible with the Christianity of the New Testament. As a matter of fact, the Gnostics were in direct opposition to the ideas presented in the New Testament. The Treatsise of the Great Seth shows Jesus laughing at Literalist Christians and saying that Abraham, Moses, Elijah and Jehova were laughingstocks to be mocked. That reflects what Gnosticism was all about...Jesus was never a real man and even if he was he was insignificant, because what mattered was Jesus as a symbol for spiritual wisdom. It seems much more likely that this sort of thinking would develop as a rebellion against an exisiting institution and not vice versa.

 

There are scholars who postulate that Gnosticism with it's symbolic, mythical Jesus came first and was later corrupted by people who didn't understand, or wanted to exploit it by making Jesus over into a man who really existed and was the Son of God. I don't accept this theory. I once entertained it as a possibility, but after reading many different perspectives from different historians and then reading over the New Testament, I don't subscribe to it anymore. The letters of Paul seem to be refering to a a historical person and he even says that if the literal ressurection doesn't exist then what good is his faith. He talks about visiting the Jerusalem sect who lived with Jesus when he was on earth. He refers to James the brother of the Lord. There are too many contradictions with the ChristMyth theory.

 

Read about the findings in Qumran cave 4 and read about a fragment named The Apocalypse of the Messiah if you want to see something interesting and I think substantial to the discussion of the historical Jesus. Also check out material related to Second Temple Judaism. You'll see that there are many parallels to the NT and that the Gospels came out of a radical culture flourishing in Judea at that time.