And the hits just keep on coming... Not sure how to proceed.

February 14, 2007

LJ it's so funny that you posted when you did. I was at my counselor's office listening to him tell me the same thing you typed. I told him that I still want to make my marriage work but my H isn't giving me anything to work with, so I feel like I'm coming to a point where the line needs to be drawn.

My counselor reminded me of my phone conversation with my H a week ago Sunday... The call was basically me asking my H to try and him telling me that he just didn't think he would ever feel "that way" about me again. I know I wrote some of this before but I had to write it down for IC so here are the highlights...

We talked at first and I said my resolve is strong and he said ok… he sounded surprised. I asked what he thought and at first he had that standoffish tone and then we started talking more like friends and he talked about how he turned off and stopped caring during Iraq because all he could think about was when he was going to talk to me next or see me and that made him a bad officer and it hurt to much to miss me all the time. He said he’s been acting frustrated ever since then because he’s been faking it so to speak.

He said that he wishes that I could have hope and hold on to that while also putting up a little wall in case. He said that he’s past caring really and that he just doesn’t see himself changing his mind. He thinks that whatever he felt for me is gone and that’s just it.

He said that he’s happy over there and that he wants to travel and run around and have fun.

He said that the selfish part of him wants me to wait for him. That he knows that when Korea is over and it’s all done with that he might look in to the future and think maybe that was a mistake. He said he thinks about me running around over here and that he gets jealous sometimes. We talked about the whole being with other people thing and he said that he’s not even thinking about that and that he would let me know in the distant future when that’s an issue. He asked me and I said I’m not going to be with anyone or anything like that and he said good because then there would be no chance of us being together if it were even a possibility. He said if I have sex with someone else then that is it. He also said that he would be sad and pissed off, but really what could he expect given the situation

I told him that I was doing everything that I could and that I’m really trying… I told him that I’m going to counseling and that I’m working on me and making myself happy. I told him that I understood a lot more about how to talk to him and what we were doing poorly in the communication department. That I thought a lot of the problems we were having and the fighting were things that were being fixed now. He was very interested to hear about the counseling… he sounded surprised. He asked what we talk about and what I tell the counselor.

He said that it’s sad that we weren’t what we should have been because he doesn’t think that we ever could have been more then we were.

I asked him if he is happy and I am happy then when he comes back why can’t we try together and he said he just didn’t see himself changing his mind about the way he feels because he has felt this way for so long. He said that there was just never a right time to tell me.

He said that he wants to get out of the Army and move to near his parents and live and work there. I said that I wouldn’t mind living there. He talked about not wanting another man raising our son and that he didn’t like the thought of me being with someone else.

He said that he isn’t coming back on leave midtour because he wants to travel around Asia. He said also that we have a strong attraction and that if he were to see me that we might end up “together” and he knows that. He said that I can be very persuasive and he knows that so he doesn’t think he should come back.

We talked like friends joking around with each other, we laughed. He asked me who I was hanging around… he was jealous and asked what guys I was around. Specifically he asked if I knew the name of the spin instructor at the gym.

I told him that this phone call gave me a little hope and he said that he didn’t intend for it to… so I asked if it was bad that it did and he said no it was ok, emphasis on OK.

He talked about the future mostly from the vantage point of us not being together and taking care of our son. I said again that before we take our lives apart we should try… I said that we are friends, best friends, and that even though we aren’t in love we do love each other because we made our son and that we do have the attraction that we have… He agreed to that but still said that he thinks he’s just not going to change and he doesn’t want me to feel worse later

He talked more about our son and that he wanted to be there for him because a boy should be like his dad when he grows up. He mentioned again that he didn’t want another man raising him. I said that there would be another woman one day and she might not want him around me. He said that he thinks I’ll always be his best friend and that she would have to understand that it’s a package deal or he wouldn’t be with her

He said that he thinks we could still best friends if we weren’t together. He said that he still feels anxiety whenever he thinks about coming back. That the memories would still be there and I could say to him could you pick up that desk and it would all come rushing back for him and it would be over again. He said whenver he thinke about seeing me he feels anxious

I asked him about talking to a counselor over email… that he wouldn’t tell me anything and he said that he’s good now and he doesn’t think that he needs that. He said that he thinks a lot over there and that this is hard for him to and that he’s cried several times when we’ve gotten off the phone.

He said that he knows we could live together as friends with benefits but that would be all it would be for him at this point and that wouldn’t be fair to me.

We talked about sex… him asking me questions about when we were together. Things he said he couldn’t ask me before. He said that we were really good together in that department

I said that I understood what he was going through and that he needed time and space. I said that I was supportive and that he should go have fun and travel and enjoy himself. But that when he was done wouldn’t it be nice to come home to your family? That I thought that if we were both working on ourselves that we would be good for each other when we were done. He said that if we hadn’t had our son we wouldn’t have stayed together. That maybe we just aren’t the right people for each other.

Anytime I asked him about trying he would say that him being on the phone was him trying and that if it weren’t for our son he probably wouldn’t be doing that.

When we got off the phone we basically ended as friends. He said he still feels the same way and again he didn’t think he was going to change his mind. He said he’d call me when he calls me.

So that was the last talk we had about "us". Everything since then has been pointless chit chat that I told you about earlier. So what my counselor said tonight is similar to what you said LJ... but he added this

He said the last time you guys talked about your relationship you sort of agreed wihtout agreeing on the friends route... at least that's what he thought you were saying to him. So he said that I can't get mad at my H for the phone calls and the chit chat this week because he's still operating under that old phone call. He said that I have to set new perameters if I don't like the way this is going or how I am feeling.

So LJ back to what you posted

Let's leave him out of this for a minute... What is it that YOU want?

Bear in mind, that unless he's willing to step up to the plate and EARN his way back, the problem will still exist. You don't just walk out on your mate and not have to make that back up to her. (!!!!)

Right now, as he is today... he's not GOOD ENOUGH to be your husband. So... would you be willing to settle for his crumbs? Or do you want a whole MAN who's willing to go the distance and not run out on you the first time he sees trouble on the horizon? Whatever it is that you want... don't settle for less.

Anyway, I think it's probably okay to be soft and gentle with a "husband"... but NOT with a "wayward husband". These are two different critters.

Look at it this way... if he starts acting like somebody again, you can always treat him like a barn cat you're trying to tame, sweet and nice and offering him a little warm milk. But as long as he's hissing and spitting at you... show him the broom. Because that's what he deserves by virtue of his actions.

You aren't a free lunch, honey.

I want to save my marriage... deep down at the end of the day that is what I want. But... how is that even possible when they tell you over and over (as you saw in the conversation above) that they just don't want that. I know he seems like an ass right now... but we did have a wonderful soulmate kind of love. I just don't get it.

You are right about him having to work to come back though... even if he didn't cheat (we don't know) the feelings I have toward him of hurt and betrayal are no different then if he had.

My counselor asked me the question tonight though... what do you want right now? Are you still commited to trying to save your marriage or are you ready to move on?

My answer was this...

I am a perfectionist... I have to know that I did everything I could to save my marriage or I will always wonder. There is still a little part of me that wants to try. I'm just so beaten that I'm scared to. I'm afraid that if I change tactics and cut him off that that will be the final nail in the coffin. We all know that it could make him miss me, or, there is the chance that he will be just fine and move on. I guess I just don't want to be the one holdng the hammer. I'm mad... but I guess I'm not mad enough yet. I kind of feel like I should leave it alone for now and revaluate soon. I know though that right now he's living it up with zero responsibilities so if something were to change for him I don't think it would be until right before he comes back...or when the paperwork thing starts.

But no I won't settle. I don't want to settle. If he can't love me the way a husband should then he should move on becasue I'm going to. It's just so sad when you think about your kid growing up that way, you never plan this when you have children, you want them to have their family together.

Ok I think I gave you all plenty to study... I know if nothing else you'll have fun with that phone call . Let me know what you think.

And as for Valentines plans... I am going out people... There is a tiki bar on the beach calling my name... and I'm going to have FUN! I'm also going to leave my phone at home so I don't do any silly drunk wife phone calls to the H. That would definately set me back HA HA:D

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

February 15, 2007

Well he emailed me tonight at 930pm. It wasn't a "Happy V Day" email it was about bills (pay day today). He was asking me about what was paid and wasn't and that he paid everything, blah blah blah. Then he went on to say that he would call me to chat about it in the next day or two. At the end he mentioned that he also had to pay a friend for a dress he bought me (he bought if before christmas).

I don't know why he felt the need to send the email today... I mean it is V Day and all. Couldn't it have waited until tomorrow? It's like "ha ha let me email you and not mention "it". Our first V day was very significant for us. Anyway... and the strange mention of the dress he bought me. I haven't mentioned it or where it was because I figured what's the point? It was a Christmas present so I just ignored the whole thing. I don't have the dress becuase it's with our friend in Europe (it was purchased in Germany over the internet). So I never brought it up.

Oh I don't know... I just think it's wierd that he would send an email on this day, even if it wasn't about the day. And bringing up the dress he bought me before he asked for the big "D" seems strange. Am I trying to read in to something that just isn't there? Probably!

February 15, 2007

You're last post got me so fired up, .............................

Whoooo! Uh-uh! Nada! No freaking-comprenda! Zilich!

First off, he's not got the supply, and you the demand! He blows this marriage, this deal he's the loser, not you and your son! He's got a good thing going and a good woman. He's just too dimned witted to see it.

Finding a good woman is like finding a good job ~ first off there hard to come by, and what good one's there are, they tend to be already taken, and the ones that have them have had them a good long while, and you're going to have to fight them to get them away from them. Bottom line? If and when you find a good job or good woman ~ don't f**k it up! And, that's what he's doing.

Most people don't join the military, and of those that do, most don't complete their enlistement. Of those that do, most go on to exceed and accell beyond their peers from HS and college.

Its not a question of if he's too good for you, its a question of you being too good for him? The truth of the matter is that he's not mature enough to appreciate a woman such as yourself. My guess is that you and he are about the same age, the problem with that is that women are generally about 10 years ahead of men in emotional maturity.

This guy is insecure ~ too insecure to be married to a woman like you! And, you're the one in IC and MC? WTF? Over? You're not out of his league, he's out of yours! He's got you doubting your mental and emotional stablity? He's got you questioning yourself, your moral compass, your "center" Ain't no freaking way!

Forget this BS, I'd be making this old boy's dreams a reality. I'd be on his ass like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat! I would be serving his ass up big old cup of WTF Up!

Its like breaking in mules. First thing you've got to do is get a 2X4 and whollop them between the eyes ~ just to get their stubborn attention!

After you do that, they've got a real pretty picture in their minds! When you've got them by the b****, they're hearts and minds will follow!

February 15, 2007

SBN,

I can't add anything to what has been said, but I would like to offer my support to you in a tough situation.

I have been fortunate not to have experienced a break up of any kind in my discovery of and time here at LS. I came here to whine about something very insignificant that really was not important in the big scheme of things. I found a group of totally awesome people, and I see you have met some of them too.

I don't know everyone, but some people just stand out for the consistent good advice they give. If I am ever in a breakup situation, I am calling on Gunny and Ladyjane from the minute of my first tears and confusion. They are the best ,as I have seen from many other threads. The advice, and the way they word it is too cool for words. They both have a great way of being consistent and bringing the focus back to you and your needs and what you deserve.

The best advice I can give you is to listen to them, listen carefully. When you feel befuddled, go back and read their posts again. If you had stated the part where your counselor said that by agreeing to friendship, even if passively, your WH was acting based on that parameter earlier, they would have caught that and stated it too. They are as good as the pros, in my opinion.

Good luck to you. I hope this all works out the way you want it to.

February 15, 2007

Another note... He called me this morning twice... once at home and once on my cell phone. I didn't answer. I was having a good morning and I knew if I talked to him it would spiral downward.

Thanks for the post Gunny...

Forget this BS, I'd be making this old boy's dreams a reality. I'd be on his ass like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat! I would be serving his ass up big old cup of WTF Up!

Its like breaking in mules. First thing you've got to do is get a 2X4 and whollop them between the eyes ~ just to get their stubborn attention!

After you do that, they've got a real pretty picture in their minds! When you've got them by the b****, they're hearts and minds will follow!

So how do I do what you said above? Do I tell him to file the papers... see a lawyer? Do I just act like I've moved on and that I accpet his decision? I know this all looks pretty bad, and don't get me wrong I'm mad, and I'm not going to let him just say sorry and then it's all better... but if there is a chance that we can work it out and move on from this then I want that for my son, and for me becuase I do love him. But I get what all of you are saying about smacking him around a little bit. I just don't know how to do it or what to say... This is all so strange becuase it's not like he's here and we're seeing eachother and all that... he's on the other side of the world. Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.

But Gunny you and LJ both say that I need to take back control... how? I remember your rant LJ... i really do. So what should I do next? suggestions?

February 15, 2007

We talked at first and I said my resolve is strong and he said ok… he sounded surprised. I asked what he thought and at first he had that standoffish tone and then we started talking more like friends and he talked about how he turned off and stopped caring during Iraq because all he could think about was when he was going to talk to me next or see me and that made him a bad officer and it hurt to much to miss me all the time. He said he’s been acting frustrated ever since then because he’s been faking it so to speak.[/i]

He's blaming YOU for his own shortcomings. I hope you can see that. This is a rewrite of recent history that supports his decision to act single... a JUSTIFICATION. And not a very imaginative one either.

He said that he wishes that I could have hope and hold on to that while also putting up a little wall in case. He said that he’s past caring really and that he just doesn’t see himself changing his mind. He thinks that whatever he felt for me is gone and that’s just it.

"Can you just percolate there nicely on the back burner just in case? Now, there's a good girl. "

Can you see how that minimizes your importance as an individual with needs of her own? And how he places HIMSELF as a larger priority than his wife and child?

He said that he’s happy over there and that he wants to travel and run around and have fun.
He said that the selfish part of him wants me to wait for him. That he knows that when Korea is over and it’s all done with that he might look in to the future and think maybe that was a mistake. He said he thinks about me running around over here and that he gets jealous sometimes. We talked about the whole being with other people thing and he said that he’s not even thinking about that and that he would let me know in the distant future when that’s an issue. He asked me and I said I’m not going to be with anyone or anything like that and he said good because then there would be no chance of us being together if it were even a possibility. He said if I have sex with someone else then that is it. He also said that he would be sad and pissed off, but really what could he expect given the situation

Same thing as in the last paragraph... he's just verifying that you're falling in line with his agenda, and rattling his saber in order to see that you take him seriously.

I told him that I was doing everything that I could and that I’m really trying… I told him that I’m going to counseling and that I’m working on me and making myself happy. I told him that I understood a lot more about how to talk to him and what we were doing poorly in the communication department. That I thought a lot of the problems we were having and the fighting were things that were being fixed now. He was very interested to hear about the counseling… he sounded surprised. He asked what we talk about and what I tell the counselor.

He's just nosy as to what your therapist might be saying about him. That's all. The therapist is in a position to remove the wool from your eyes, and he wants to make sure that doesn't happen.

He said that it’s sad that we weren’t what we should have been because he doesn’t think that we ever could have been more then we were.

More rewiting of marital history. The marriage can't possibly work out if you two were essentially incompatible... just another justification.

I asked him if he is happy and I am happy then when he comes back why can’t we try together and he said he just didn’t see himself changing his mind about the way he feels because he has felt this way for so long. He said that there was just never a right time to tell me.

But somehow a tour of Korea ends up being a GOOD time for it?

He's too chickensh*t to face you, and he's afraid you'd change his mind if you had daily access to him. (AND.... there's a hole in his story. There are things that you don't know, I'd be willing to bet on it.)

He said that he wants to get out of the Army and move to near his parents and live and work there. I said that I wouldn’t mind living there. He talked about not wanting another man raising our son and that he didn’t like the thought of me being with someone else.

That sucks for him, doesn't it?

Does he think you're going to spend your life alone and lonely just because HE walked out of it? He sure as hell hopes you will. This is part of his 'fantasy agenda'. He'd like very much for you to settle down in his parents home town. Makes it all so much easier for him, doesn't it? It gives him continued access so that he can keep you in control. (Personally, I would have told him to 'wish in one hand and sh*t in the other'. )

He said that he isn’t coming back on leave midtour because he wants to travel around Asia.

This is another hole in his story. There is missing information here. He's made other plans for his time off.

He said also that we have a strong attraction and that if he were to see me that we might end up “together” and he knows that. He said that I can be very persuasive and he knows that so he doesn’t think he should come back.

Again, he knows he's f*cking up, and he's afraid you'll break his resolve.

We talked like friends joking around with each other, we laughed. He asked me who I was hanging around… he was jealous and asked what guys I was around. Specifically he asked if I knew the name of the spin instructor at the gym.

Again, he's verifying his controls over you.

I told him that this phone call gave me a little hope and he said that he didn’t intend for it to… so I asked if it was bad that it did and he said no it was ok, emphasis on OK.

Another noncommittal, straddling the fence, response. He dares not push you too much further away at this point, but he's not willing to give you anything to work with.

He talked about the future mostly from the vantage point of us not being together and taking care of our son. I said again that before we take our lives apart we should try… I said that we are friends, best friends, and that even though we aren’t in love we do love each other because we made our son and that we do have the attraction that we have… He agreed to that but still said that he thinks he’s just not going to change and he doesn’t want me to feel worse later

Here he's just trying to make sure that you're onboard with his 'fantasy agenda'.

He talked more about our son and that he wanted to be there for him because a boy should be like his dad when he grows up. He mentioned again that he didn’t want another man raising him. I said that there would be another woman one day and she might not want him around me. He said that he thinks I’ll always be his best friend and that she would have to understand that it’s a package deal or he wouldn’t be with her

Now... here's where the fat is REALLY hitting the fire. He's verbalizing his agenda to you. He's telling you very clearly what he wants to accomplish. He wants control over his son... and control over YOU as well. But, he doesn't want the responsibility that goes along with it.

Honestly, ask yourself... is it okay with you if YOUR son grows up to be a man who dumps his wife and child in order to prioritize his own selfish wants and desires? It damn sure wouldn't be okay with me. If you meet another man who will teach that boy how to BE A GOOD MAN, then that's what's in the best interest of your child. Allowing this immature boy-man to set the standard.... THAT would be the mistake.

He said that he thinks we could still best friends if we weren’t together. He said that he still feels anxiety whenever he thinks about coming back. That the memories would still be there and I could say to him could you pick up that desk and it would all come rushing back for him and it would be over again. He said whenver he thinke about seeing me he feels anxious

I asked him about talking to a counselor over email… that he wouldn’t tell me anything and he said that he’s good now and he doesn’t think that he needs that. He said that he thinks a lot over there and that this is hard for him to and that he’s cried several times when we’ve gotten off the phone.

He said that he knows we could live together as friends with benefits but that would be all it would be for him at this point and that wouldn’t be fair to me.

We talked about sex… him asking me questions about when we were together. Things he said he couldn’t ask me before. He said that we were really good together in that department

All more of the same. Even the bit about sex. It sure might be nice for him if he can get an occasional 'piece' off of you to cement the "friendship" though.

I said that I understood what he was going through and that he needed time and space. I said that I was supportive and that he should go have fun and travel and enjoy himself. But that when he was done wouldn’t it be nice to come home to your family? That I thought that if we were both working on ourselves that we would be good for each other when we were done. He said that if we hadn’t had our son we wouldn’t have stayed together. That maybe we just aren’t the right people for each other.

More justifications, even in the face of you 'opening the cage door'. There must be something pretty important for him on the line in order to turn down a sweet deal like that... don't you think?

Again, there's MORE here than meets the eye. He could have easily agreed with you. You were offering him damn near EVERYTHING he's said he wants. You've addressed ALL his concerns, save the "we just aren't right for each other" gambit. And even that one was acknowleged and allowed "time and space".

What this should tell you is that he's withholding information from you. There's an outstanding concern which has NOT been addressed. There's a hole in his story.

Anytime I asked him about trying he would say that him being on the phone was him trying and that if it weren’t for our son he probably wouldn’t be doing that.

When we got off the phone we basically ended as friends. He said he still feels the same way and again he didn’t think he was going to change his mind. He said he’d call me when he calls me.

Nice. Sweet guy.

He just told you what your priority is in order of importance in his life.

He said the last time you guys talked about your relationship you sort of agreed wihtout agreeing on the friends route... at least that's what he thought you were saying to him. So he said that I can't get mad at my H for the phone calls and the chit chat this week because he's still operating under that old phone call. He said that I have to set new perameters if I don't like the way this is going or how I am feeling.

Your counselor is exactly right. You need to set new parameters. You're letting this guy play with your head, and ultimately YOU can't blame anybody else if you ALLOW it.

I want to save my marriage... deep down at the end of the day that is what I want. But... how is that even possible when they tell you over and over (as you saw in the conversation above) that they just don't want that.

It's not possible. This is something you NEED to accept. You can certainly change the parameters and make it easier for your mate to make good choices... but at the end of the day, the choices are HIS to make.

The best way to change the parameters... is to start by clarifying those choices for him.

He's living in a fantasy bubble. He believes that you two can still be BEST friends, and that he can keep you and your son within his control... all the while flitting in and out of your lives without any kind of real responsibility to you. He's told you VERY PLAINLY where the weaknesses are in his agenda. He's worried that he's going to lose control of you and your boy. He's worried that some other man will become more influential in your lives. He's told you where the vulnerabilities are in his master plan.

Armed with that information, your best bet is to .... EXPLOIT these vulnerabilities. This is like taking a sharp stick and poking holes in the fantasy bubble.

Fact is, none of that other sh*t is gonna happen anyway. You're not going to spend the rest of your life dancing attendance on this guy. You're not going to allow him to dictate who the men in your life will be. You're not going to want your son growing into some irresponsible "boy-man". You're NOT going to want this guy up your ass all the time if you're divorced from him.

Best he know it NOW while the knowlege will still do him some good, don't you think?

If you're familiar with marriagebuilders, I'm sure you've heard of "Plan A and Plan B". You've already done as much of a "plan A" as I think you're able under the circumstances. There are other voices whispering into his ear and YOU don't have as much access as they. I'm also thinking that "Plan B" isn't going to work as well as it might have otherwise, because you're so far away. "Out of sight is out of mind", right? A strict no contact type of "Plan B" isn't going to put a burr under his saddle.

This is why I think it would suit your purposes better to go ahead and pop his fantasy bubble as thoroughly as possible, and then let him feel the ice in your response to him.

You had asked me earlier what observations you might make upon doing so. (I just now saw that post today, btw. Until you confirm your account, there's going to be a lag in your posts. My understanding of that is limited, but I think it's because "unconfirmed" accounts have to be screened by the mods just like 'Guest' posts are. You might want to confirm your account by replying to LS's initial e-mail in order to stop the lag time.)

Anyway, a wayward spouse will usually go off like an atom bomb when you mess with his 'agenda'. A big snarky reaction will tell you how invested he is in it. Eventually, most will at least try to "smoothe things over" as a gambit, but unless he's a pretty good actor, he's not going to be able to keep his sh*t together initially when you're applying your sharp stick to his "bubble".

He needs to see that you mean business though. That bit Gunny shared with you about smacking a mule smartly between the ears with a 2x4 is exactly right. You need to get this boy's attention. He needs to SEE you while you're popping the bubble.

And honey... this should NOT be a ploy on your part. You need to mean it 100%. If this guy can't pull his head out of his ass and BE A MAN, you don't need him in your life.

I am a perfectionist... I have to know that I did everything I could to save my marriage or I will always wonder. There is still a little part of me that wants to try. I'm just so beaten that I'm scared to. I'm afraid that if I change tactics and cut him off that that will be the final nail in the coffin. We all know that it could make him miss me, or, there is the chance that he will be just fine and move on. I guess I just don't want to be the one holdng the hammer. I'm mad... but I guess I'm not mad enough yet. I kind of feel like I should leave it alone for now and revaluate soon. I know though that right now he's living it up with zero responsibilities so if something were to change for him I don't think it would be until right before he comes back...or when the paperwork thing starts.

You've got this backwards in terms of WHO needs to be in control. That's just your fear talking, sweetie. You're afraid you're going to make a wrong move which will end the marriage. But.... the marriage is already OVER. The old marriage is dead. And even if it was resurrected somehow, you wouldn't want it. It wasn't good enough. It could never meet your needs over the long-haul as it stands today.

You don't want to take the responsibility for pounding the final nail it... but I'm telling you, it's your RIGHT to hold that hammer. He can't take that away from you unless you let him. He's sweating right now, because he KNOWS you have the power. Look at the facts... he's afraid to be around you because he's vulnerable to you causing him a change of heart. In his mind, your proximity represents a danger to his agenda. He's also afraid to lose control over you.. so he checks in every few days and delivers his mixed message.

USE THE HAMMER!!!

When you do... one of two things will happen. Either he'll pull out every stop to win you back, or you'll be FREE to move on with your life and find happiness for yourself.

Right now, he's in the position of being chased... so he runs. Change THAT particular dynamic and his choice will be limited to either chasing YOU or letting you go.

Your fear that he will "let you go" is baseless. If he does, then that's what NEEDS to happen. You need to know who he really is underneath it all. If he's the kind of guy who won't EVER step up to the plate, you may as well know it now... because you DON'T want to "settle" and waste YEARS of your life. Once you let go of the fear... your angst is going to disappear along with it.

You've said you're a perfectionist. Well, perfectionists are most often their own worst critics. I think it's entirely possible that you've already done the best "Plan A" you could under the circumstances, and now you're looking through your perfectionist lens and picking yourself apart. STOP.

You've done what you could... now it's time to step it up a notch. My advice to you would be to make that next step ALL about you and your child.

If it was me, I'd verbally smack this WH right between the eyes with a 2x4, much as I said in my earlier post. That fantasy bubble would be FUBAR by the time I was done with it. Then I'd go strictly business with him, polite but icy. I'd be pleasant with his parents, but I wouldn't share my personal business with them. (Although I'd certainly accomodate them in visitation with their grandchild.) Meanwhile, I'd see an attorney, one who specializes in military divorces, and I'd make absolutely certain that I had full custody of my child as well as support. Make no mistake... I'd go ahead and file if it was necessary to accomplish the custody goal and I'd do it without hesitation. I'd also pack my household and move back to my hometown even if I had to do it out-of-pocket. I'd get a job, establish a homelife and routine.... and I guarentee you, he'd play hell rooting me out of there.

Bottom line, I'd accept nothing less than a MAN with hat in hand, who was SINCERELY sorry for the way he had treated me. It would take outstanding effort on his part to prove it too. And if that didn't happen... I'd move on to better things because I'd know that he hadn't been worthy enough to share my life.

I know you're scared. But this guy has to grow up and PROVE himself. He's worthless to you if he can't.

p.s. Thanks for the kind words, DDL. I like your posts too. They're a whole lot more compassionate than mine, I must say. You've got alot of empathy mixed in with common sense style. Dynamite stuff. )

February 15, 2007

"Bottom line, I'd accept nothing less than a MAN with hat in hand, who was SINCERELY sorry for the way he had treated me. It would take outstanding

I know you're scared. But this guy has to grow up and PROVE himself. He's worthless to you if he can't. effort on his part to prove it too. And if that didn't happen... I'd move on to better things because I'd know that he hadn't been worthy enough to share my life."

I think he hasn't grown up. Based on his behaviour and attitude, he'll leave you and your child again. His reasons for leaving you are based on his selfish needs to be single while he is away. Sounds like he isn't ready to buckle down.

I understand the whole in-laws pissing you off bit. Don't bother talking R with them. They are not on your side b/c they are only thinking about what makes their son happy. Obviously if you H tells them that you're the source of his unhappiness then they will gladly cast you out of the family. My FIL told me to "close my eyes" regarding my H's lady "friend" (not lady, but trashy ) and just ask my H if i can be there for the kids. Crazy?!

February 16, 2007

OK I'm still waiting for two other little posts that I did last night to post so look for those... also thanks LJ for the info about confirming my account. I deleted the email by accident so I just subsribed to save time. What the heck might as well right.

I'm still reading your posts... also he called again tonight, it was an hour long phone call about nothing. Highlights were...

We talked about our son and school... what he was doing and so forth. How he is getting along with other kids. A total kid update really. My son was eating dinner at the time, but eventually my H asked to speak to him. They talked for a few minutes and then he asked to talk to me again.

He mostly talked about work and hating his job. We talked about bills and money and what was what. He asked me how it was going... well I mentioned the gym and he asked how that was going. I'm not sure why he would ask that. I've always been athletic, so the gym is always the gym for me.

He asked what my Dad knew... he said when he talked to him last (about 2 weeks ago) that he sounded strange. I said that I told him we are separated, and it's not like I read him our emails or anything. He said ok, "I was just curious"

Toward the end he said something that I know Gunny and LJ are going to love... it also happens to be something that shows that he is clueless about how all of this is really going to work. Or maybe he's feeling me out to see what I know about D. I was always the planner though, as Gunny knows military spouses usually are becuase we're always moving. Anyway...

We were toward the end of the conversation and he said... well I've figured out that by the end of the deployment we'll have about $$$$ amount of debt left. I said yeah. He says... well how do you think we should split it? I was quiet and he goes... oh you don't want to talk about this. I said no it's not that it's just I don't have an answer really. Is there a specific answer you were looking for, do you have an answer? And he said no I guess not. hen he turned the topic to selling his car or staying there longer to pay it off...

If he was honest in his question then he has clearly not spoken to a lawyer.

I just wanted to post that. Check back for the "lost" posts... also LJ your post is looong and I need to read it 10 more times before I pick your brain. Check on me later because I'm going to need some more help.

February 16, 2007

If it was me, I'd verbally smack this WH right between the eyes with a 2x4, much as I said in my earlier post. That fantasy bubble would be FUBAR by the time I was done with it. Then I'd go strictly business with him, polite but icy. I'd be pleasant with his parents, but I wouldn't share my personal business with them. (Although I'd certainly accomodate them in visitation with their grandchild.) Meanwhile, I'd see an attorney, one who specializes in military divorces, and I'd make absolutely certain that I had full custody of my child as well as support. Make no mistake... I'd go ahead and file if it was necessary to accomplish the custody goal and I'd do it without hesitation. I'd also pack my household and move back to my hometown even if I had to do it out-of-pocket. I'd get a job, establish a homelife and routine.... and I guarentee you, he'd play hell rooting me out of there.

Bottom line, I'd accept nothing less than a MAN with hat in hand, who was SINCERELY sorry for the way he had treated me. It would take outstanding effort on his part to prove it too. And if that didn't happen... I'd move on to better things because I'd know that he hadn't been worthy enough to share my life.

Orginally posted by Lady Jane

I'd be making this little boy's dream a reality, no talk. You want out ~ you're out, and I'd make it happen for him quick, fast, in a hurry like! IMHO, he's playing games. Un-questionably there's a fantasy bubble there, and I'm beginning to wonder more and more if there's not another woman involved. Believe me, twenty years in the Mariens ~ I've seen so call "true love" sprout up in the most un-likely of places. (While on the Drill Field at Parris Island, my platoon pulled one week of mess duty in the WM (Women Marines) Recurit Messhall ~ one week! One of my recruits was passing notes along with the Mac and Cheese, and they begin writing while in boot camp, which Marine Bootcamp is one of the most Dracoian places for romance. Damned if they didn't get married! )

I wouldn't give up my carrer with the DA, the smartest thing this old boy ever did was to do 20 years in the Marines. You've already got your active duty Army time credited toward your retirement, plus your time Germany, plus your time @ FS. I'd bide my time until you can at least get an equavalent civil serivce position back home.

Since having retired from the Marine Corps and gotten back out here in the "real world" there's been many a day, I've sat in my recliner with head in hands thanking God almighty that he gave me enough sense to do 20 years in the Marines and retired.

As far as the DH goes, I'd follow LJ's advice, (honestly? I'd be more crude and rude about it! He'd think a Hotdamn Tsumai, earthqake, and comet hit his ass all at the same time! Or worse, like the time I got drunk and stuck a tasser to my thigh! :laugh: :laugh: {You WON'T DO THAT TWICE!!! ~ EVEN THOUGH THE CAT WAS LIKE ~ "DO IT AGAIN, DO IT AGAIN!"}

February 16, 2007

When you do change positions in this I can see your H trying to anty up and play one more hand. Be ready. Prepare yourself by possibly playing the scenario out in your head of things he is going to say and get comfortable with your responses. If you have planned ahead for the most expected comments or threats then you will not be as shocked and as likely to begin questioning your decision.

You know he will try and regain control once he sees you have taken it from him. After you two share your words with each other and hang up it may take a couple of days to sink in that you are freakin' serious and the reality of you and his son being gone for good.

If he calls back to reconcile, be cautious. There isn't any more trust there at this point and you will need to see some pattern of consistency to know if a heart change took place.

When I told my W I wanted a D she didn't believe me the first time. The second time she did and made a 180. She decided to do whatever she could to keep me with her and change my mind. I think it is fair to expect similar actions from your H. You want to see enough positive actions that it becomes impossible to say he is not trying. That will take some time and being apart like you are it may take even longer. But I would continue on course of leaving his ass. As he sees your progression, you'll know if he is changing and 'manning-up'.

If you get confused and are reading mixed signals, post the stuff here. These guys are gooood! They'll help decipher everything for you.

February 16, 2007

When you do change positions in this I can see your H trying to anty up and play one more hand. Be ready. Prepare yourself by possibly playing the scenario out in your head of things he is going to say and get comfortable with your responses. If you have planned ahead for the most expected comments or threats then you will not be as shocked and as likely to begin questioning your decision.

You know he will try and regain control once he sees you have taken it from him. After you two share your words with each other and hang up it may take a couple of days to sink in that you are freakin' serious and the reality of you and his son being gone for good.

If he calls back to reconcile, be cautious. There isn't any more trust there at this point and you will need to see some pattern of consistency to know if a heart change took place.

When I told my W I wanted a D she didn't believe me the first time. The second time she did and made a 180. She decided to do whatever she could to keep me with her and change my mind. I think it is fair to expect similar actions from your H. You want to see enough positive actions that it becomes impossible to say he is not trying. That will take some time and being apart like you are it may take even longer. But I would continue on course of leaving his ass. As he sees your progression, you'll know if he is changing and 'manning-up'.

If you get confused and are reading mixed signals, post the stuff here. These guys are gooood! They'll help decipher everything for you.

Good post! Wish you and I could share a good bottle of Scotch, talking on Lake Euafla!

February 16, 2007

i am sorry for what happened.

being an asian myself and living here for 30 years i'd say please don't rule out the possibility of another woman/women just yet. there are more and more single asian girls who aren't thinking about getting married. in their 20s. even in the 30s. even if traditionally getting involved with a foreigner was a big no no in the past few decades, things are changing here. you barely see foreign men walking alone on the street. they are most of the time accompanied by young and beautiful girls.... this could be the missing piece of the puzzle.

i can't help you in other regards but i hope you are getting all the support that you need here.... all the best.

February 16, 2007

OK Kids... here we go. Thanks sooooo much for the posts. Hopefully you will see my other post soon... They are still lagging becuase I am silly and deleted the original LS email. Hopefully I can fix it soon.

Anyway... I agree with you guys. Plan "A" is getting me nowhere at this point. He is still talking about the future with us split up so I need to move on to B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.
Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?
While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.
But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.
In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.
But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.
In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.
But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.
So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation. The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

Okay... so from reading what I pasted above Plan B sounds logical, although we should note that it's also written that if the separation is due to annoying behavior or a lack of emotional needs fullfillment that you should use plan a for a prolonged period to create a loving environment. Hmmmm something to think about. We'll put that on the back burner for now...

Moving on... Plan B:

So how should I do this? Let me ask you guys some questions about your posts. WARNING: This is the part where I act like an unintelligent little kid who can't tie her own shoes. Sorry, but this is a scary thing so I'm going to ask really stupid questions so I can make sure I know exactly what I'm doing.

LJ

First off I need to tell you that I don't have a problem meaning it when I say it's over, becuase at this point it is over and you are right. I want to be happy and I know I can be, I would prefer for it to be with him and our son, but if I must go it alone, it will hurt soooooo much but I will deal and move on. Now that being said some questions...

He's living in a fantasy bubble. He believes that you two can still be BEST friends, and that he can keep you and your son within his control... all the while flitting in and out of your lives without any kind of real responsibility to you. He's told you VERY PLAINLY where the weaknesses are in his agenda. He's worried that he's going to lose control of you and your boy. He's worried that some other man will become more influential in your lives. He's told you where the vulnerabilities are in his master plan.

This I understand, we know he wants to have his cake and eat it to, and I've been letting him. So we know what he doesn't want to happen Gotcha!

He's too chickensh*t to face you, and he's afraid you'd change his mind if you had daily access to him. (AND.... there's a hole in his story. There are things that you don't know, I'd be willing to bet on it.) Again, there's MORE here than meets the eye. He could have easily agreed with you. You were offering him damn near EVERYTHING he's said he wants. You've addressed ALL his concerns, save the "we just aren't right for each other" gambit. And even that one was acknowleged and allowed "time and space".

What this should tell you is that he's withholding information from you. There's an outstanding concern which has NOT been addressed. There's a hole in his story.

Ok so if he's around me he wouldn't be able to go through with this... so what's the hole in the story than? Becuase if he were here and couldn't do it that would say that he still has feelings for me right? I just wish I knew what the outstanding concern was or how to drag it out of him. Any suggestions?

Armed with that information, your best bet is to .... EXPLOIT these vulnerabilities. This is like taking a sharp stick and poking holes in the fantasy bubble. This is why I think it would suit your purposes better to go ahead and pop his fantasy bubble as thoroughly as possible, and then let him feel the ice in your response to him. Anyway, a wayward spouse will usually go off like an atom bomb when you mess with his 'agenda'. A big snarky reaction will tell you how invested he is in it. Eventually, most will at least try to "smoothe things over" as a gambit, but unless he's a pretty good actor, he's not going to be able to keep his sh*t together initially when you're applying your sharp stick to his "bubble".

I want to pop the bubble I really really do... HOW??? Just think on that for a second and keep reading...

He needs to see that you mean business though. That bit Gunny shared with you about smacking a mule smartly between the ears with a 2x4 is exactly right. You need to get this boy's attention. He needs to SEE you while you're popping the bubble.

??? How do I get him to see me popping the bubble?

If it was me, I'd verbally smack this WH right between the eyes with a 2x4, much as I said in my earlier post. That fantasy bubble would be FUBAR by the time I was done with it. Then I'd go strictly business with him, polite but icy. I'd be pleasant with his parents, but I wouldn't share my personal business with them. (Although I'd certainly accomodate them in visitation with their grandchild.) Meanwhile, I'd see an attorney, one who specializes in military divorces, and I'd make absolutely certain that I had full custody of my child as well as support. Make no mistake... I'd go ahead and file if it was necessary to accomplish the custody goal and I'd do it without hesitation. I'd also pack my household and move back to my hometown even if I had to do it out-of-pocket. I'd get a job, establish a homelife and routine.... and I guarentee you, he'd play hell rooting me out of there.

As for his parents, my son adores them and they adore him. They are wonderful grandparents and I would never do anything to keep them apart. I am not talking to them about this situation though... when they ask I tell them politely to speak to their son. I have an appointment with JAG (military lawyers) and an appointment with a civilian lawyer as well. Check that box, I know my rights so I'm taking care of that. As for the house and moving... you are going to love this. I think this was all part of his master plan in a way, or at least it worked out to his advntage. I'm at home already. When he went to Korea I came home so that I could go to school and spend time with family becuase I have been living in Germany for eight years. So all of our stuff is in storage and he doesn't even have to worry about moving out or splitting up the house. Worked out well for him didn't it.

OK... Stick with me people...

Gunny

I'd be making this little boy's dream a reality, no talk. You want out ~ you're out, and I'd make it happen for him quick, fast, in a hurry like! IMHO, he's playing games. Un-questionably there's a fantasy bubble there, and I'm beginning to wonder more and more if there's not another woman involved. Believe me, twenty years in the Mariens ~ I've seen so call "true love" sprout up in the most un-likely of places.

As for the other woman angle... it really kills me to think that he would do that. I know all people are capable, I really do, but I just never thought that he would be like that. I wouldn't think that he would have a physical affair... perhaps an emotional affair... or if it is physical I think it would only be physical. Again no way of knowing, I can only guess based on the man I knew. Keep reading:)

Empty

When you do change positions in this I can see your H trying to anty up and play one more hand. Be ready. Prepare yourself by possibly playing the scenario out in your head of things he is going to say and get comfortable with your responses. If you have planned ahead for the most expected comments or threats then you will not be as shocked and as likely to begin questioning your decision.

You know he will try and regain control once he sees you have taken it from him. After you two share your words with each other and hang up it may take a couple of days to sink in that you are freakin' serious and the reality of you and his son being gone for good.

Any thoughts on what the most expected comments and threats might be. When you say he might try and play one more hand what do you think that means? When he tries to regain control how do I stop him... I hate it but I am the weaker one right now only because I am on defense at the moment.

OK Soooooooo... now that I've asked some obvious questions let's figure out the freakin' reality of it all.

How do I do this email or phone?

How do I start it all... now remember I'm not the cursing kind (except when I'm trying to motivate soldiers to get their a**es moving, right Gunny:) ). Is it something like this?

So I would prefer that we save our marriage, but you've made up your mind so we need to start some planning so that I can move on with my life... blah blah blah

Really I need you to tell me exactly what to say. I know how to tweak it but when you are so close to a situation and your fear is talking (as LJ said) you can't form the thoughts to go with it. So I know I need to be controlled and calm. Not friendly but not bitchy either. But I'm trying to pop the bubble, so give me the freakin' stick ... I'm holding the hammer!

Please give me your thoughts on how to say what I should say to give him that verbal wacking with the 2x4... and remember I'm a little kid right now so really tell me... I mean do I mention guys, dating, lawyers, money, property, visitation, eventually marrying again. What will wake him up and what could potentially cause a war? I know it's probably definately over but I don't want war, becuase we have our son to think about. I do want to give him the wakeup call you guys are suggesting so that I can have some piece of mind though. So what should I say and what should I avoid. Make him jealous? or is that just petty and predictable? Let him guess what I'm doing so that his imagination works against him?

You guys get the picture, now give it to me straight.

And BTW you guys are the best! I wouldn't be doing this well without you!

February 16, 2007

I made the horrible mistake of looking at pictures on the computer after I posted... stupid stupid stupid. Why is it that I look at him and still think he's so handsome, even while he's doing this to me? Will that go away?

I've been thinking about all of your posts and the only thing I keep coming back to is that there's someone else. Empty... you said you would take it to your grave (the OW info). So if I assume my H feels the same how the heck to I find out if there's an OW? It would be so much easier on me if I knew that there were another woman. It would be harder for a minute and then he would be easier to forget.

I just got kind of down all of a sudden... let me know how to kick his a** that will make me feel better:o

February 16, 2007

This I understand, we know he wants to have his cake and eat it to, and I've been letting him.

Damn right you have. Now... you take the "cake" off his plate. He can't eat cake if his cake won't cooperate.

Ok so if he's around me he wouldn't be able to go through with this... so what's the hole in the story than? Becuase if he were here and couldn't do it that would say that he still has feelings for me right? I just wish I knew what the outstanding concern was or how to drag it out of him. Any suggestions?

He avoids you because your persuasion makes sense. It's rational. His fantasy is not based on reality though. Yes... I think he probably still cares about you, even loves you in his own sad, pathetic, kind of way. That leaves him more vulnerable to your persuasion. It's your rational sense mixed with his own confused emotions. It threatens his resolve. Dangerous stuff for a guy who's committed to his "fantasy agenda". You know, the one where you two are still great buddies and he gets a vote on what happens in YOUR life.

And the "hole" is just that... I'm willing to bet on it. He's either seeing someone (in person or on line), or he's committed himself to a bachelor lifestyle with multiple partners. I'm sure all those "married" guys in housing over there aren't the pristine influence you think they are.

I was military myself once, so I know a little something about different styles of commeraderie. There's the male/female type we all know about... and then there's the kind where your buddies are ramping up your bravado with beer and sympathy.

I want to pop the bubble I really really do... HOW???

??? How do I get him to see me popping the bubble?

You think about EVERY aspect of his future plans he's already shared with you. And then you take it down brick by brick. And he SEES you doing it because you do it LOUD, without hesitation or compromise.

>>> He wants to be friends. You let him know "that ain't gonna happen".

>>> He wants you to stay put. You move away.

>>> He wants to be the only influence in your son's life. You tell him straight up that you will most definitely be choosing you next husband based on his step-father potential.

>>> HE wants you to abstain from sex with other men. You tell him it won't be ten minutes after the ink on the divorce papers is dried before you're getting a little 'sumfin sumfin'.

As for his parents, my son adores them and they adore him. They are wonderful grandparents and I would never do anything to keep them apart. I am not talking to them about this situation though... when they ask I tell them politely to speak to their son.

Nice and reasonable. I like that.

I have an appointment with JAG (military lawyers) and an appointment with a civilian lawyer as well. Check that box, I know my rights so I'm taking care of that.

Good work. Don't forget to take all your "Dear Jane" emails to your appointment with you.

As for the house and moving... you are going to love this. I think this was all part of his master plan in a way, or at least it worked out to his advntage. I'm at home already. When he went to Korea I came home so that I could go to school and spend time with family becuase I have been living in Germany for eight years. So all of our stuff is in storage and he doesn't even have to worry about moving out or splitting up the house. Worked out well for him didn't it.

Mention that to your attorney as well. I doubt your WH is going to be able to keep your household goods from you.

As for the other woman angle... it really kills me to think that he would do that. I know all people are capable, I really do, but I just never thought that he would be like that. I wouldn't think that he would have a physical affair... perhaps an emotional affair... or if it is physical I think it would only be physical. Again no way of knowing, I can only guess based on the man I knew.

The behavior you're seeing lately isn't what you expected from "the man you knew" either, is it?

It's WS behavior. You'd be shocked at how blatent "The Plan" is, when you're reading threads in the OM/OW forum. "The Plan" is all about keeping the affair on the down-low so that the betrayed spouse, divorce courts, and extended family members aren't prejudiced by the affair. Cheaters don't like to pay the piper.

What's more, last I heard... Infidelity is against the UCMJ. He's not going to admit to a damn thing, I assure you. He wouldn't want you taking that to his commander.

And even if by some miracle, this guy isn't cheating on you... there's not an appreciable difference in how you're going to handle the conflict anyway. The strategy is essentially the same.

How do I do this email or phone?

How do I start it all... now remember I'm not the cursing kind (except when I'm trying to motivate soldiers to get their a**es moving, right Gunny:) ). Is it something like this?

Phone is better if you're going to come out swinging. You can follow it up with a Plan B letter if you like... but you know what? I'd cuss my ass off. I'd warm up by calling him an azzhole and a muther*****er... and THEN I'd let him have it. But I wouldn't leave a written record of all that.

The fact that you aren't "the cursing kind" actually adds more impact. It makes a bigger statement. It lets him know that he can no longer count on you being "reasonable".

To be honest though, I'd get my ENTIRE "plan B" together and have it executed within ten minutes of the conversation. For now, I'd keep him at a distance, avoiding his "smalltalk" and maybe mentioning occasionally that you're not so hard-up for friends that you're willing to let them sh*t all over you. Little tremblers leading up to the BIG ONE, but nothing huge until you're ready to move on your plans.

The difference between "plan A" and "plan B" needs to be a really stark contrast in order to make the biggest impact. That said, I don't believe a typical "plan B" is going to be effective for you.

There's already too much distance between you, both physically and emotionally. He's not in close enough proximity to notice or be bothered by you ignoring him. Plan B is kind of like giving him what he wants in a way.

A fast-moving "Plan D" though... just might get him up off his lazy ass. And if it doesn't.. c'est la vie. You were looking for love when you found him, right?

You've been reasonable and cooperative. Your reward for that has been to watch him continue easing you out of his life bit by bit. What he hasn't counted on is a LOOSE CANNON wreaking havoc with all his best laid plans.

So, for other people... yeah, you're easy to get along with. But with him, you are NO EASY MEAT. This boy doesn't respect you. He doesn't think you can make your own decisions or cut him our of your life.

Hmmm... he's not too smart, is he?

My advice to you is... get all your ducks in a row and fob him off for a while longer while you do. Make your plans to suit yourself and your son first and foremost. But give some thought to taking his master plan down brick by brick while you're at it.

Then, strike fast and hard. Call him everything but a cedar bush on the phone, and tell him most of the things I posted to you a couple of days ago. USE STRONG LANGUAGE. Then follow up with a more sedate email, no-nonsense, all business, and stating your future boundaries. ( "Boundaries" are the "roadmap" home... what he needs to do in order for you to consider taking him back.)

Meantime, take action. Serve papers. Move back home. Do whatever you need to do to so that you can insulate yourself from his influence and control.

He needs to have to RUN to catch up with you. (!!!!) His attention will be fixated on you. He'll be nearly obsessive in his need to get you back under control. Don't let him. Make him EARN it. He's got to meet your boundaries.

Remember:

>>> You are NOT interested in being his "friend". Real friends don't treat people the way he treated you.

>>> You will no longer accept personal correspondance from him. All communications should be strictly business, either co-parenting or financial.

>>> He has NO PLACE in your personal life anymore. Your business is no longer his business. That was HIS choice when he opted for divorce.

>>> You are NOT a fool who believes his crappy story about "growing apart" and being "wrong" for each other. You have no further interest in being treated like one either.

>>> If he pulls his head out of his hindquarters, and you haven't already moved on... then you MIGHT be willing to talk to him. If not, there's nothing else to say.

Also, I think it's okay to give him a few "mixed messages" of your own later on down the pike. It makes you more interesting. So don't worry about limiting yourself to a "dark" Plan B.

He needs to see that he's NOT the only drama queen in the room, Girlfriend.

February 17, 2007

As par the course, Lady Jane's got it down right. A couple of things to add, that might tweak what she said.

First off, the cursing ~ you might not be the cursing type, but being prior military you most definately don't have "virgin ears" and you know the vocablulary. Even as a two tour Marine Drill Instructor, with nine years at Parris Island, I never cursed to my Marines all that much ~ because I recognized it for what it was ~ another tool in my toolbox to get things done. So when I did use it ~ I did so with much fore thought, .............the effect was, "S***! The "Gunny's" P*** the F*** off! And it was nothing but *******s and elbows, with them a fetching and a gettin' to and fro, screaming and shouting and running around in circles,

I think you should "blast" him with both barrels and then re-load and blast him again. In short I think you should "go off" on him, it'll do you go personallly to vent, it'll knock him on his ass, and send him realing, knocking him off center, and off balance and send his gyro ape!

The best time to do this is when he's makes one of his casual "what's up" calls.

"You know I've been thinking about this, and let me tell you ONE MOTHER-TRUCKING THING! I LOVED YOU, I MARRIED YOU, I GAVE BIRTH TO YOUR SON, AND THEN YOU'RE GOING TO UP AND PULL THIS CRAP ON ME! HAVE YOU LOST YOUR EVER-LOVING MIND! YOU'RE CRAZIER THAN HELL IF YOU THINK FOR ONE MINUTE THAT THIS OLD GAL IS GOING TO LAY DOWN AND BE YOUR DOORMAT! YOU WANT OUT! FINE! ITS A DONE DEAL BUDDY! BUT ITS GOING TO COST YOU, AND I MEAN BIG TIME! YOU'RE GOING TO PAY THROUGH THE ASS AND THE NOSE FOR THIS ONE! (You get the idea!)

The way to burst his bubble is to let him know that the way that he thinks its going to be post-divorce, isn't at all the way its going to be. After speaking to the JAG attorney ~ you might even want to threaten him with following up with CID.

The only officer that I ever heard of having an affair, (I'm sure there were many others ~ but being an enlisted puke never heard of it) was my XO who was having an affair with my boss's wife. He kept sending "Top" TAD, (TDY for Army and Air Force) so he could scrogg Tops wife ~ Top got suspicious and came home un-expectanly one weekend and caught them in the act. This was a Marine Lt. Col (Army LTC).

The CG made the Lt. Col confess the affair to his wife in his office, made them go to mandatory IC and MC, shipped his butt off to Okinawa for the remainder of his carrer, gave him a bad fit rep and a letter of reprenind, and knocked him to the bottom of the liner list. If the wife didn't agree to any of this ~ it was going to a court martial for "conduct unbecoming" and "adultry" {You're right LJ ~ adultry is still punishable under the UCMJ, as is sodomy which under the UCMJ is any sex act with anyone not your lawful wife!}

The one thing that concerns me is your household effects being in storage. If you've got "power of attorney" be it general or specific in regards to it specifically, not a problem. But? If you don't, he can keep your household effects in storages indefinately?! If your "power of attorney" papers don't spell that out, and only he and he alone can release it, TMO will not act upon it without his signature.

Personally, I've got problems and issues with the "Former Spouse's Protection Act" but as I calculate it, you and he have been married about four or six years. It would be to your personal advantage if you could stay married to this clown for ten years. You and your son would get all kinds of "bennies" in doing so, provided he retired from the military

February 18, 2007

Not much to update really... I'm just kind of having a crap day and you guys always make me feel better so I thought I would hop on here and say hello.

I've been sitting around thinking all weekend trying to get my mental game plan together. I'm not completely sure yet how to do this. For right now I'm just doing what was suggested and getting my ducks in a row. I haven't heard from the H since Thursday when we had a one hour pointless talk about nothing... if you scroll back you'll see that post.

He did email me last night with an email address of a mutual friend that I had asked for... the email was brief and just said that he hadn't told them we were getting a divorce just that we were having issues. And that he hadn't told them that he probably wouldn't be here when they came to visit. I don't get how he can tell his parents and not his friends.

I keep thinking about our son and I just don't get how he can walk away from that without trying. It's like Empty and Dilly... you guys are both trying becasue of your kids. I don't get how my H can not understand that him doing this means that he forfeits his right to see his child grow up. Not becuase I would keep our son from him... but come on if we're realistic whoever is with me, married to me, is going to be my son's father figure on a daily basis. My H will be a visitior. That's so sad to me. I know that he's the one doing this but I just ache for my son in this situation.

Gunny I do have POA... but with household goods and transportation who knows what hoops they'll have for me as far as getting the stuff back. I'll find out when I talk to JAG though.

The difference between "plan A" and "plan B" needs to be a really stark contrast in order to make the biggest impact. That said, I don't believe a typical "plan B" is going to be effective for you.
There's already too much distance between you, both physically and emotionally. He's not in close enough proximity to notice or be bothered by you ignoring him. Plan B is kind of like giving him what he wants in a way.

This is bugging me LJ (not you of course what I'm thinking about)... you are right about the space between us. If he were here I don't think he would be doing this becuase we would be looking eachother in the eye.Also becuase of the distance plan a and plan b are almost the same thing. I might sound a little frostier when I'm in plan b mode, but he might not even notice that. Either way I'm not chasing him and this all seems to suit him just fine. So about your Plan D that's the one where I tell him off and have no contact that isn't business or our son?

I keep thinking about the timeline here with this whole thing I was looking at emails and I found the last one that was "I love you and miss you" was Jan 9th... that was right before he went on a weekend trip over there with the guys. He didn't call me all weekend which isn't like him. After that things went down hill fast. I wonder if something happened, he screwed up and got drunk and slept with someone, or he started something with someone, or he just decided that he was loving life living that way and he was done with me.

I don't know but that seems to be the turning point. If he is with someone else though, we all know the stats those things don't usually last,, especially once exposed to friends and family... so I just wonder if he's going to come back and decide I'm what he wants. I know I sound unlike myself with the sad boo-hoo today but I can't help it. I'm just having trouble with the thought of watching him move on, athough I know that will go away with time (and when I meet someone I won't care).

I know I can't wait a year though, only to have him decide that he really is done. I would need to move on for myself and my son, and I would like to find love again one day.

Ok I'm done whining now... It's just one of those days. I'm here with the kid who's been sick, and crazy, and he's partying his ass off doing whatever he wants with no worries. I just want to kick him... HARD!

February 19, 2007

Well NC for 4 days... although he's hit the ATM a few times, so I know he's having fun patrying. Oh well... I went out a few times this weekend too. I'm not supposed to care right?

February 19, 2007

Any thoughts on what the most expected comments and threats might be. When you say he might try and play one more hand what do you think that means? When he tries to regain control how do I stop him... I hate it but I am the weaker one right now only because I am on defense at the moment.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I was thinking along the lines of saying you will never make it without him, he will fight you tooth and nail to keep his son, you will never do better, you know that you are going to be alone when I leave you, or anything that would leave you second guessing when he hangs up. The 'one more hand' he might play could be getting you to forgive and forget. He might try to build a safety net by stringing you along for a duration.

These are all maybes. I just threw them out so you could have time to become comfortable with hearing it and not be surprised if you hear it from him.

I made the horrible mistake of looking at pictures on the computer after I posted... stupid stupid stupid. Why is it that I look at him and still think he's so handsome, even while he's doing this to me? Will that go away?

I've been thinking about all of your posts and the only thing I keep coming back to is that there's someone else. Empty... you said you would take it to your grave (the OW info). So if I assume my H feels the same how the heck to I find out if there's an OW? It would be so much easier on me if I knew that there were another woman. It would be harder for a minute and then he would be easier to forget.

I just got kind of down all of a sudden... let me know how to kick his a** that will make me feel better:o

When things started for me with the OW I worked to keep the low profile. I researched dos and don'ts so I would not be 'obvious'. The "How to know if your spouse is cheating" articles were very helpful. If he puts effort into hiding the relationship with the OW you may never know. Atleast not know for certain.

Well NC for 4 days... although he's hit the ATM a few times, so I know he's having fun patrying. Oh well... I went out a few times this weekend too. I'm not supposed to care right?

NC for you and NC from him as well? Staying busy keeps your mind off him and helps you through these difficult days. Stay busy!!!

February 19, 2007

I keep thinking about our son and I just don't get how he can walk away from that without trying. It's like Empty and Dilly... you guys are both trying becasue of your kids. I don't get how my H can not understand that him doing this means that he forfeits his right to see his child grow up. Not becuase I would keep our son from him... but come on if we're realistic whoever is with me, married to me, is going to be my son's father figure on a daily basis. My H will be a visitior. That's so sad to me. I know that he's the one doing this but I just ache for my son in this situation.

My parents divorced before I was even one year old. My dad never came to see me until many years later. He wasn't interested in being a father. It has driven a wedge between us that exists even today. I saw him about twice a year (birthday and Christmas) my whole life. Hard to build a relationship with someone you never see.

It is very possible he may feel like my Dad did and you may never hear from him again after the D for years. My Dad wouldn't pay the child support but my Mom didn't want to battle him in court about it. He just disappeared for awhile...

February 19, 2007

So about your Plan D that's the one where I tell him off and have no contact that isn't business or our son?

Plan D is where you just go ahead and divorce his goofy ass, sweetie.

I'm sorry to say it... but I figure the way things stand, even if you were doing marriagebuilders, you'd only have a about a 5% chance of him getting his act together in time to save the marriage. There's too much distance, and he's having too much fun.

I think what happened is he got over there and decided he didn't want to be married anymore. Either he's caught up in the bachelor lifestyle or he's got a little something going on the side. Maybe both. But unless he sincerely WANTS to do what's necessary to earn his way back... he's not going to be worth your time in the long run. He'll just do the same thing over and over again if he doesn't learn what's required of him now.

Of course, the alternative to taking BIG ACTION is to just wait him out. That could be as much as 2-3 years though.

Eventually he's going to get tired of playing. And when he does, he WILL most likely come creeping back. BUT... you'd be a FOOL to accept him under those terms. I honestly think your only shot at complete recovery is to make things REAL for him and quickly. He needs to see the seamy underbelly of this thing. He's throwing his family away with both hands. I just can't imagine that he understands what his actions mean in real-life terms.

You're gonna have to show him, and you're gonna need to do it BEFORE it's too late for him to make this up to you. He needs to WANT to be with you more than anything else, and it needs to be something he PROVES to you beyond a shadow of doubt. He has stepped in sh*t where you're concerned. A real MAN doesn't run off overseas and dump his wife and son with a "Dear Jane" email/phone call. You'd be crazy to accept back less than a "man".

The clock is ticking, and in alot of ways, more so for YOU than it is for him. If the situation continues, by the time he pulls his head out of his hindquarters... you're not going to WANT him back. Seriously, he's losing a little bit of your love and respect EVERY day. Before you know it... it'll be gone. If he comes crawling back three years from now, you're most likely response is going to be "Drop dead, you sorry SOB".

So, the question you have to ask yourself at this point is... Do you want to be the hammer or the nail?

Make a big stink, or wait him out?

I say you have nothing to lose by being the "hammer". You're probably looking at about a 95% chance of this thing ending in divorce any way you slice it. So, why make it all nice and comfy for him?

If it was me... I'd be raising hell back home. I'd take his master plan down brick by brick, nice and legal for the court system... and he'd be so busy focused on me and wondering wtf I'd be up to next, he wouldn't have enough energy for FUN AND GAMES in Korea.

February 20, 2007

Plan D is where you just go ahead and divorce his goofy ass, sweetie.
I'm sorry to say it... but I figure the way things stand, even if you were doing marriagebuilders, you'd only have a about a 5% chance of him getting his act together in time to save the marriage. There's too much distance, and he's having too much fun.

I think what happened is he got over there and decided he didn't want to be married anymore. Either he's caught up in the bachelor lifestyle or he's got a little something going on the side. Maybe both. But unless he sincerely WANTS to do what's necessary to earn his way back... he's not going to be worth your time in the long run. He'll just do the same thing over and over again if he doesn't learn what's required of him now.

Of course, the alternative to taking BIG ACTION is to just wait him out. That could be as much as 2-3 years though.
Eventually he's going to get tired of playing. And when he does, he WILL most likely come creeping back. BUT... you'd be a FOOL to accept him under those terms. I honestly think your only shot at complete recovery is to make things REAL for him and quickly. He needs to see the seamy underbelly of this thing. He's throwing his family away with both hands. I just can't imagine that he understands what his actions mean in real-life terms.

You're gonna have to show him, and you're gonna need to do it BEFORE it's too late for him to make this up to you. He needs to WANT to be with you more than anything else, and it needs to be something he PROVES to you beyond a shadow of doubt. He has stepped in sh*t where you're concerned. A real MAN doesn't run off overseas and dump his wife and son with a "Dear Jane" email/phone call. You'd be crazy to accept back less than a "man".

The clock is ticking, and in alot of ways, more so for YOU than it is for him. If the situation continues, by the time he pulls his head out of his hindquarters... you're not going to WANT him back. Seriously, he's losing a little bit of your love and respect EVERY day. Before you know it... it'll be gone. If he comes crawling back three years from now, you're most likely response is going to be "Drop dead, you sorry SOB".

So, the question you have to ask yourself at this point is... Do you want to be the hammer or the nail?
Make a big stink, or wait him out?

I say you have nothing to lose by being the "hammer". You're probably looking at about a 95% chance of this thing ending in divorce any way you slice it. So, why make it all nice and comfy for him?

If it was me... I'd be raising hell back home. I'd take his master plan down brick by brick, nice and legal for the court system... and he'd be so busy focused on me and wondering wtf I'd be up to next, he wouldn't have enough energy for FUN AND GAMES in Korea.

I agree with LJ on this one!

The way you train mules is to first get a 2X4 and whack them between the eyes, to get their attention.

With the DH the way you do that is draw up divorce papers, and be un-reasonable in what your asking for ~ he pays all the bills to include your car payment, he pays an astronomical sum of child support, you keep everything, you get half of his military retirement ~ even though you've not been married for ten years +. etc.

Being the hammer is about the only chance you've got of saving your marriage IMHO!

March 1, 2007

Hi everybody... did you think you lost me? No such luck... I was just getting my act together.

Here's the update...

This past weekend I went out with friends every night... well on Friday the H tried to call me and as I was at a bar and my phone was sitting on the bar, I guess someone answered it (I was with a large group of firends) and although they didn't say anything my H could hear where I was and sent me an email asking me to answer my phone when he called next... so Sunday he calls and since I was out Saturday night I was kind of tired so I'm not sure if that's why I was so straight forward or what but this was the basic conversation...

First off he asked about what I did this weekend and who I was out with and when I named a few of the people including a guy who I've been friends with for a few years (and who he doesn't like) he was bothered and made a comment about me being out partying when he wasn't and it's only been six weeks since he told me he wanted a divorce. He also said that he hasn't been going out at all. I reminded him that he called me and ended it so he can't be bothered, also I told him that in the future I would not be answering these questions.

It was really early in the morning his time so I asked what was wrong, he sounded tired and/or sad. He said that he couldn't sleep because he had a bad dream about another man being around our son. I kind of hit my point with that comment. I calmly and matter of factly set him straight. I told him the following...

Another man will be an influence in our sons life

I will not be friends with you it would not be good for me

We will not be seeing eachother and/or hanging out

I will be with someone else... probably sooner rather then later

You (as in H) do not decide child support the judge does

I gave him an outline for a basic visitation schedule when you don't live in the same state/city

He admitted that he hasn't looked in to a divorce at all and doesn't know what's involved.

Of course there is more that I can never think of when I'm typing to you guys...

I told him that I think he's overwhelmed and that I don't think he's thinking this through. I said that I'm sad for him and his return... that I don't think he understands what he's really doing, that he's going to come home to no home or family and living with his parents until he gets back on his feet. I tried to help him see the reality he's going to walk back in to.

I told him that I've come to a crossroads... I told him that at this point I have to go either way... either we're working it out in which case I can be there for him and deal with his "mental health break" and help him through this or stand back while he take time... or... I said he needs to let me go and I need to build a new life for me and my son without him. I said I'm not so far gone yet that I couldn't work it out with him, but that I get a little closer to that every day.

He asked me what I thought about how he's feeling, and I said I thought he was overwhelmed and hiding, but eventually you have to come back and things aren't goign to be what you think. He asked me what I wanted and I told him that I wanted to try and work things out. I said that we are best friends and that we have the foundation for greatness. He said that he didn't think that I would ever be able to forgive him for this that I would resent him. I told him that I've learned a lot about myself since this happened and that I know I can forgive and move on from this, but that means we both forgive and move on without harboring any resentments. He said he didn't want things to go back to the way things were, that relationship... I told him (thanks to LJ) that the old relationship is over, it's dead. I said I don't want that relationship back it was obviously broken and I want something better.

At the end I told him... when I said forever I meant it, I want to be there for you, I want to be supportive. I've told you that you can have your space and take your time, you've told me you need 10 different things, ad I've told you that you can have them... all I'm asking for is one thing, that you tell me that you are going to try. To me forever and being with someone means that when they need something you try your best to give it to them, so if this is what you need I'm trying to give it to you, but I can only stay with you for this if I know you're in it with me. I said you need to make a decision and you need to tell me which way to go.

I did ask him... is there any way I could be bigger about this or handle it better, I'm really trying to be good about this and be there for you... he said...no... you're being really good about this.

No more mixed signals, and no more being mean. He said sorry for the mean comments and that he didn't mean for them to come accross that way.

He said he felt like I was trying to make him responsible... I told him... you already are responsible, you called me and said you wanted a divorce, you are responsible for what happens.

He said he needed some time to think... I said fine go think, and next time we talk it will be about this. No chatting we'll be addressing this issue. I told him that if he had anything to talk to me about before "the talk" that he could email me.

I felt better when I got off the phone, I felt like I had said everything. I have nooooooooooooo idea which way he is going to go. Of course I hope we work it out. I do love him and I think our relationship would be stronger if we got through this... more adult. There was a shift in this conversation though, he blamed our problems on the military and not on me anymore... I thought that was interesting.

So what do you guys think? Did I do good? I hope he's really thinking now.

PS- He did call me last night but it was a money issue that couldn't be fixed without me calling the bank and then calling him back... it would have been a 2 day email war if he hadn't called so I understood. We only talked business though, and I ended the call... I don't think it matters that this call happened as far as messing up our sunday talk... Any thoughts? I figure when he calls next time it will be "the talk"

March 1, 2007

Good job! Brava!!!

THIS is my favorite part...

He said he felt like I was trying to make him responsible... I told him... you already are responsible, you called me and said you wanted a divorce, you are responsible for what happens.

:bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

I bet it felt pretty good too.

Check it out.... You did something different and got a different result. I also like how you made it clear to him that while you really want to work on the marriage... you're running out of gas. It's important that he realize the clock's ticking. Make sure you hit that point with him again when you talk. He needs to know that should the day come when it's over... it's REALLY OVER.

Be ready. He's liable to try to manipulate you some more. He might even show a good deal of temper or pouting. Stand your ground. Remember... you want a Husband not a Wayward Husband. Don't settle for less than you deserve.

March 1, 2007

Got to boggie out the door for work, we've got 'earsplittinloudenboomers' today, and these college students lose their minds when it rains here, (plus three tornados, whooooohoooooo! Nothing but a good time!

You did good girl, you did real good.

One thing real quick, and I'll post again when I get home tonight.

Its not the military's fault either ~ he's still avoiding the responsibility!

Guns

And the hits just keep on coming... Not sure how to proceed.

Recommended Posts

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

dropdeadlegs

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

Ladyjane14

Link to post

Share on other sites

mum2three

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

empty906

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

cbl

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

Ladyjane14

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

empty906

Link to post

Share on other sites

empty906

Link to post

Share on other sites

Ladyjane14

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

stubbornbutnice

Link to post

Share on other sites

Ladyjane14

Link to post

Share on other sites

Gunny376

Link to post

Share on other sites

What's New

My Activity Streams

More...