And the hits just keep on coming... Not sure how to proceed.

[stubbornbutnice]

Well... he just tried to call me 7 freakin' times...

 

I didn't answer... I didn't want to talk to him... I had a good day today. It was a nice "I'm just fine on my own I don't need him" kind of day. I connected with an old friend, made plans with a different friend for tomorrow (the friend my H doesn't like). I was happy today... why can the STBXH always sense that and interupt during those moments? He didn't leave a message so I have no clue what he wanted.

 

So do I email him later and tell him that I will take care of our German friends... head him off at the pass so that he doesn't have any reason to call me? I mean if I send that email then he won't have the reason of our friends visit to use as a reason to call right? Or do I just wait for him to call me and then shut him down. I will continue to enforce my no chatting boundary.

 

Ok... that's all ... answers please:p

[empty906]

I have gotten behind on my reading here, I apologize. I read through this last page to see how things were progressing for you and I want to ask you a question. If you have already spelled this out point me to where it is.

 

"What do you want, now?" With all that has transpired, with the things you have said and the responses you have received, what is it that YOU want now?

[Gunny376]

Same here.

 

There's pretty much a 'no-tolerance-for-bullsh*t' policy in my relationship too. It's kept me on the straight and narrow for over a quarter-century. My husband would kick my behind to the curb so fast, it'd take my head ten minutes to catch up if I'd pulled any of that on him!

 

And by the same token, even though it was a close call... this is what kept him from taking that final step when we were in crisis. He knew that if he cheated on me physically, or if he actually left me... we would be DONE.

 

I think programs like marriagebuilders and divorcebusters are great in alot of ways. But there has to be a stopping point, a point at which you're willing to lay your ears back and say "this far and no more". The point at which he KNOWS you mean business.

 

Bottom line?

 

I don't deal with B*******! I don't deal with it! I'm not in the BS business! Either be a part of the answer instead of the question, and/or part of the solutioin insteaed of the problem ~ or BE GONE

 

Just that plain ~ Just that simple!

[stubbornbutnice]

Thanks for the posts... as always...

 

Empty to answer your question... I want to work things out still. That is still what I want the most. I want us to at least try in a year when he comes home to make this work. On the same note though when this first started I wanted us to try for me and for us and for the love we had... it's become less and less about that and the more time that passes with him behaving this way, the less it becomes about that and the more it becomes about our son.

 

I love my H, but I do not LOVE my husband now, if you know what I mean. I'm just too hurt. I'm still at a point where I could get past this with him... but I'm really lacking in respect for him at the moment, and the more I feel that way the harder this becomes. If he told me that in a year he would try then I would put %110 percent in to us, and me, and our family when he returns. I've learned a lot about myself and our relationship through this process and I think we could still have it all...

 

But this limbo I'm doing is taking its toll on me. This is a really strange existence that I have right now. I'm not wearing my wedding rings (he's not wearing his)... I'm going out with friends to bars and hanging out, which is something I would not be doing if I were commited to him. I'm starting to get hit on, which is flattering of course...

 

I was thinking about it this morning and it's really interesting this military lifestyle. If my H and I were a team still then when he's gone there are things you just don't allow yourself to feel... you don't pay attention to guys, you remove yourself from certain situations where as a spouse you shouldn't be, you don't drink more then a drink or two when you are out, you don't think about sex at all... you block it from your mind so that you don't want it becuase your H isn't there to give it to you. What I used to tell myself when we were apart was...

 

If my H walked in right now and saw me would he be upset by what I'm doing, where I'm at, or who I'm with.

 

That was how I kept myself in check. It was like my little honor code for my marriage. I wanted to be a good and loyal spouse that was important to me. But in limbo land where I currently live, I know he is not operating that way, so therefore I should move on as well, or one would think. So it's like I'm single but there is this cloud over my head. It's just really strange.

 

I want us to work...but I can only hold up both sides for so long. As more and more time passes the easier it becomes for me to walk away. I gave him the ultimate offer I think... for the next year do whatever the h*ll you want... party live it up, I don't want to hear about it... but when you come back we make a go of it as a family, we live together and go to counseling and try to put this thing back together. And here we sit waiting for his answer.

[stubbornbutnice]

Well... I just sent him a short email letting him know that I got the info about our friends and that I will start talking to them about their plans... He'll probably still call though so that he can speak to our son. We'll see.

[stubbornbutnice]

So the H called tonight and we talked for ove 2 hours. It was a hard conversation but here are the basics...

 

He talked to our son and then we got on the phone... we were just talking about some business stuff with my car (the one I got in to the accident in) and some money/ bills stuff and then he asked me what kind of cars I was looking at when I went car shopping. Well I kind ofgot upset at that. I said does it really matter? He kind of stopped and said well I'm a curious person. I said well if we aren't togethr then it doesn't matter what I'm driving. Well that started out whole conversation about the divorce.

 

We just talked back and forth. He only got mad once when I said something about another man being with Ethan everyday... The way I said it was not very good and even I said I was wrong to say it that way, and I apologized. It came out like a blackmail statement which is not what I intended. So then he started with the friend thing again. I said I'm not witholding my friendship in a ha ha I'm gonna get you kind of way. Being friends with you would be painful for me. Being friends with the man who couldn't be with me and watching him live his life without me would be to hard. He said he could understand that. My cell phone rang a couple of times and he asked me later if I was dating because my phone rang an awful lot... I said no I'm not dating right now.

 

He said some things about that he's happy now and he thinks he's a better person now that he's not with me. That he's changed and he thinks that he's a different person now. I brought up that he's removed from non job related stress there and I know that he needed that break. I said that it must have been really hard for him to come back from Iraq to a child and wife and all of these new things. I said I felt like we've been treading water since then and we haven't really worked on our relationship at all. I said we were always moving or changing jobs or taking care of our son... we just got lost. He made a comment or two about that he thinks once the romance was over that if we hadn't found out I was pregnant that we might not have stayed together.

 

He said that at least I can have more children and that he resents me for the visectomy (spelling?) and that he has to work not be angry at me for that right now. I reminded him that I offered to do it on my side and he said no becuase it would be invasive for me. We dropped that topic. But I can tell it bothers him.

 

Then we started talking about us before. He said that when he sent me that email (the Christmas last try email) that when I responded the way I did he was so upset that he cried for days, and then that was just it for him. He was done. I said that my response was wrong but I did try to talk to him about it again, and even though it was to late for him at that point I did try to see it from his point of view. I said that while the reaction he saw was defensive and angry, that was becuase I was upset with myself that I had let him down... and what he didn't see was the behind the scenes where I was trying like mad to find a way to fix everything that he was upset about. I told him all the stuff I was doing and he listened.

 

We both took a lot of reponsibility for things that went wrong in the relationship. I started to talk to him about all of my reading and about counseling some... I told him that I've learned a lot and that I really think we should try counseling. I told him my point of view throughout this whole ordeal... I said... you emailed me, then you call three days later... I'm taking care of our son and our cars and our stuff, I have all the reality here bearing down on me. He listened to that and said he understood.

 

I said that I thought a lot of our issues were that we didn't communicate with eachother properly, we never learned how and the relationship died because of it. I said a lot of other stuff about communication with us, and how symptoms played out negatively and he listened. He brought up how he hates it when I don't answer my phone. I told him I always answer when our son is with me so he can talk to him. He said ok. I thought it was good that he actually brought up a dislike instead of being robot man.

 

He said that all he feels toward me right now is the way he would feel about an old friend. He said he doesn;t think I'm a bad person or anything but that he just doesn't have those relationship romance feelings for me anymore. He said he knows how he feels and he doesn't see that changing. I told him that I don't feel much more for him then that right now either. He asked me a few times if this was all becuase of our son, me trying... I said that was part of it of course, but I said no... I'm trying becuase I meant it when I said forever, for better or for worse. I know I can't help you right now becuase I'm not what you need, but I can be there. I told him about the stories Ive heard and been told about people recovering from this stuff... I said all you need to save a marriage is a tattered tattered thread. I said I thought we still had that left. Of course there was lots and lots of me talking about us not giving up and that we hadnt tried everything yet. We need to talk to professional etc... He asked how I see this playing out... he said if we do counseling when I get back I don't think that should mean that you move up right away or something. I don't remember the exact wording but he was asking how couseling would work if we weren't in the same area. He said he didnt think us living together would be a good idea.

 

Sooooo... the end of this long long phone call is he agreed to do phone counseling with me while he was there. My IC is really good and told me before that he would do this with him and I. He said that he doesn't think that he's going to change but if it will make me feel better then ok. Then he made a joke about any guys who wanted to date me or who are talking to me will just have to wait for a while (I'm not sure how to take that). He asked if he could call me next weekend and I said yes. I thanked him for talking with me about us and for agreeing to the counseling. And that was it.

 

So what do you... my wonderful advice giving people think? I don't feel like he was Bullsh*ting me.

 

Oh one more thing he said and I'm not sure where in the conversation he said it... he said that he's not on the market or anything or looing for that he said he thinks he's better off alone right now. I agreed with him and said that that was why I thought Korea was a good thing for him right now, and that I understood that he needed that and never got it after Iraq.

 

Aslo he did tell me that he was reading about divorce online, and looking up child support and things like that. That came up when I told him I had seen a lawyer and that if were going to do this we needed to get moving... this was before we talked about everything else of course.

 

Sooooooooooooooooooo??? Give it to me straight people... I'll call my counselor... but what else? What else should I do? What should I read? Give me all the goods so I can do this right. :bunny:

[Gunny376]

SBN ( sounds like a network of something ), even though I'm not dating right now, let alone a relationship (by choice, IU'm working on me, getting me and my life where I want and need it to be ~ getting things sqaured away mentally, emotionally, financially, etc) I just picked up Dr. Phils book "Relatioinshp Rescue"

 

I like Dr. Phil for the most part ~ there's parts about him that I don't like, he caters too much to women's point of view ~ but I understand that's his venue and appeal. But, to me ~ he talks a lot of just plain old common horse sense~

 

Any way, you can find it at WalMart ~ it just came out in paperback version for about six bucks.

 

I like your latest post about "just not thinking about sex" Most people don't go into the military as you and I did, and many that do don't make it. But to your average Joe Smucatelle on the street, they just can't understand how a person can go without sex for a whole year!

 

Its called self-discipline, and self control ~ something you pick up on in the miltary.

 

Of course with over 1000 different VD's, the risk of getting pregno or getting somone pregno, paying child support for 18 years to someone you barely know and/or like helps to rein those horses in.

 

For moral fortitude, dedication, and committment and hust hanging in there I give you,.......................................... not to mention having a good attitude and perspective during these hard times

 

:bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny: !!!!!!

 

(Sock bunnies are our way of giving ou sock bunnies!)

[stubbornbutnice]

Also...

 

We were talking about us being together again he said I don't want to just be with you and go through the motions I want to be happy. And he said I can't believe you would want to be together like that either. I said I don't want to be together like that, I want us to be happy as people, happy together, and happy parents for our son. I said I know we can't go back, but I think that we could have something better. He didn't really say anything. But he agreed with my statement about us being happy and that was how it should be if we were together. He probably agreed with that to reinforce his point that he doesn't think we can have that relationship again. I don't know. Empty's going through this... uhhhhh... you would think I would feel better this morning but I really just feel nervous. I'm not sure how to do this. I mean does counseling work if one person is only there so that the other person will feel better? If he's going for the wrong reasons can it work if you have a good counselor? Any thoughts?

[Gunny376]

Quit dancing with this guy, serve him with divorce papers, and get busy with putting your life back together and moving on.

[dropdeadlegs]

I want to be as optimistic as anyone has ever been. That's my place here on LS.

 

That said, optimism is getting more difficult every day.

 

Your son, Ethan, has little to do with your marriage. That's a fact. A child is a product of a marriage, but not a big actor in the marriage relationship. Don't see him as a factor, nor use him as one. That's two very different relationships (yours, his, or "ours".)

 

It is easy for me to take this stance, but I'm hearing "done" left, right, and center.

 

Counseling is great, but it's hard work, even in person. I can't imagine how hard it would be by phone. I wish you luck with that. Given the time difference, it's hard for me to see how that could be accomplished.

 

I'm sorry, sweetie, but I see dissolution of the marriage in the immediate future. I'll do my best to make that as easy as possible for you in the way of online support.

[empty906]

Quit dancing with this guy, serve him with divorce papers, and get busy with putting your life back together and moving on.

 

I don't know, Gunny... let's hold off on the D just for a minute. I think (haven't been there) that SBN should have peace in her heart about getting the D instead of it being a last resort. What do you think about it from a angle like this?

 

I asked what she was wanting and she isn't wanting to D right now. So I think she should wait about that until she feels strongly about it and can't sleep at night from wanting to get the process started.

 

(SBN, I don't mean to talk like you aren't in the room

 

With my dislike for my W I have ups and downs. Some days I really don't know why I even bother; other days I never even think about wanting leave. Strange but sometimes I feel like I can stay busy with work, hang out with my son, and provide a secure, safe environment for my W. I really feel all she wants from me is not to leave. By not leaving she feels safe, atleast that's what she has said to me.

 

But it comes and goes, is what I am saying. I wonder if it 'comes and goes' with your H. He doesn't come right out and answer your questions with cut and dry answers and maybe, maybe, it's because he hasn't made a decision yet.

 

That takes us back to the earlier posts where we warned that he may try and drag this out as long as he can but he have learned more about him up to this point and I wonder if it is fair to both of you to re-evaluate both of your motives and the end result each is desiring.

 

You have stated your motive and the end result you are seeking, think back and tell me what you understand his to be. Then we can see if we agree with your answer and start again with helping you follow through. It may still lead you to the attorney's office but I would like for you to be convinced of this.

[Gunny376]

Sorry, I shouldn't have posted because I did so as I was heading out the door, and for some reason, there's a lag in SBN's post?

 

And, I agree Empty ~ taking end-game objectives in mind ~ I think she needs to wack this guy up side the brain housing group with a 2X4, and the one I see laying around has D I V O R C E written on it! Not to actually divorce him mind you, but to get him to sit up and let him know that she's not playing around with his ass!

 

I can tell you this tele-conferrcing isn't going to work because there's like a 13 hour time difference. Five o'clock PM in Japan is 4 in the morning here, if memory serves me correctly. Besides, he's got his heart in it half way.

 

The only thing that seems to get a rise out of this guy is that SBN might be moving on?!

 

I understand that SBN wants to save the marraige for herself, them, and especially for her son, but that is waning more and more each day ~ until her motivation for saving the marriage is only for the sake of the son ~ and if that's the only reason ~ then that's no reason at all, at that point she's laying herself, her wants, her needs, her hopes and dreams and scarificing herself and her life for her son. I did that, and its cost me, BIG TIME~ and I would gladly do it again, that's what a man is suppose to do, suck it up, and deal with it.

 

When I went through this crap, I knew the deal! I knew someone had to pay the Pipper out the ass, and so I took as much as I could possibly take on. I gave her everything from 12 years of marriage, I took on all the bills, to include her car payment. I didn't do it for her, I did it for my children then ages 6 and 10. My goal was to provide as good a life for my children as I could. I had zero chance of getting custody. Not because I was a bad father, nor abusive, but because I was a 16 year career Marine.

 

"Mr. Gunny" what do you do for a living?" Where have you been the last year? (Iraq !~ the First Gulf War ~ at the time) How often do you deploy with less than 24 hours notice? She could have hired a law school want-a-be and won custody.

 

What I'm advocating SBN is quit playing with this guy ~ the person that cares the least ~ is the one that controls the relationship, and its so not about him controling you, nor you controling him ~ its suppose to be about "us" etc. But, right now, you care more about the marriage and about "us" than he does ~ and he's playing with you, and playing BS games!

 

You don't negotiate with terrorist ~ you kill them!

You don't reason with bullies ~ you kick their ass!

 

And you need to give this guy a lesson in objectivity ~ and that lesson is "You don't screw around with me, my life, my child!" No "if's, ands, nor buts" that's not negotiable

 

Sending this guy divorce papers via the US Mail ~ doesn't mean you're getting divorced, it doesn't mean you want a divorce ~ it means you're finished playing these silly ass games with his ass! And you can even include a note or letter saying that!

 

Send him the divorce papers and include a letter, in it ~ tell him if you had your "druthers" you'd druther be married to him than any man on the planet, but if he wants out ~ then here's his out! Just sign on the dotted line have them notorized and send them back, but to e-mail you because you've got to make your mind up wheather your going to go out with either "Tom, Dick, or Harry?"

[Ripples]

SBN, I want to add my tuppence worth having read all your thread and your changes, especially this last one. I totally agree with Gunny, what he says about 'the person that cares the least is the one in control' is so true.

 

Your husband doesn't care about your marriage. He, right at this moment, doesn't want to be married to you. And that isn't necessarily going to change. It sounds like he's agreed to counselling to keep you off his back and to ease his guilt. I don't believe that counselling will have any effect when one of the two parties is not wholly committed to wanting the marriage to work.

 

I think that now you need to get back to the frame of mind you had before where you were in control of the situation, where you were calling the shots and dictating what was going to happen and when. You've shown him you still want him and the only thing, as Gunny says, that seems to make him sit up and take notice is mention of you having another guy on the scene.

 

Serve the divorce papers. What's the worse that could happen? He signs them? If he does, you'll have more time to get your own life in order, more time to focus on your son and more time to find a man to have a healthy relationship with, instead of fannying around trying to fix a relationship with a guy that seems like he needs a mother more than a wife. That doesn't sound so bad to me.

 

[Ladyjane14]

He said some things about that he's happy now and he thinks he's a better person now that he's not with me. That he's changed and he thinks that he's a different person now.

 

So, he's a "better" person now, huh?

Is that what you call a guy who Dear Janes his wife and kid just because he's not knee-slappin' happy enough? He's a nice guy for that?

 

C'mon SBN. Call this guy on his bullsh*t. You're soooo afraid he's going to make a final decision on the marriage that you can't see he ALREADY has. His final decision is to serve Number One first and foremost.

 

I brought up that he's removed from non job related stress there and I know that he needed that break.

 

Poor baby. He's got it tough, doesn't he?

 

Guess what? ... There are MEN all over the world who get up every day, go to work, and then come home and NURTURE their family. Fatherhood is MORE to them than who the kid calls "Daddy". It's about raising a healthy child into adulthood and making a good citizen out of him. And these MEN don't mind the sacrifices they make in order to get that goal accomplished. These are MEN who treat their wives like PEOPLE... not like maids, not like personal assistants, not like hookers. And even when they have problems in their relationship, they hold on until things get better. They don't BAIL just because they hit a bump in the road.

 

He made a comment or two about that he thinks once the romance was over that if we hadn't found out I was pregnant that we might not have stayed together.

 

You know, for a guy who claims he doesn't have anything going on the side... he's awful hung up on "romance". Where is that coming from?

It's not like you two can be "romantic" together on a daily basis while he's in Korea for pete's sake, so why is he so concerned with it right now?

 

I'm more inclined to think that if his emphasis is on "romance"... it's because it's foremost on his mind. IOW, there's SOMETHING in his life causing him to prioritize it, and I seriously doubt it's because he's not getting it from you. While he's half a world away, it's not even reasonable for him to believe YOU should be providing that.

 

He said that at least I can have more children and that he resents me for the visectomy (spelling?) and that he has to work not be angry at me for that right now. I reminded him that I offered to do it on my side and he said no becuase it would be invasive for me. We dropped that topic. But I can tell it bothers him.

 

Tough. If he hadn't changed the game in mid-play, this wouldn't be an issue. It shouldn't be something that YOU are feeling guilty about. This is just a TOOL for him to access your sympathy, so you won't ride roughshod over him in the divorce. That's all it is. He's manipulating you emotionally.

Let his girlfriend worry about the quality, or lack thereof, of his sperm. Not your problem.

 

 

Then we started talking about us before. He said that when he sent me that email (the Christmas last try email) that when I responded the way I did he was so upset that he cried for days, and then that was just it for him. He was done. I said that my response was wrong but I did try to talk to him about it again, and even though it was to late for him at that point I did try to see it from his point of view. I said that while the reaction he saw was defensive and angry, that was becuase I was upset with myself that I had let him down... and what he didn't see was the behind the scenes where I was trying like mad to find a way to fix everything that he was upset about. I told him all the stuff I was doing and he listened.

 

Same thing... more emotional manipulation.

 

... I'm taking care of our son and our cars and our stuff, I have all the reality here bearing down on me. He listened to that and said he understood.

 

Again...

Words + Action = The Truth

Words - Action = Bullsh*t

 

"The truth" is that he doesn't CARE if he leaves you holding the bag, honey. He's giving you lip-service but NO ACTIONS. None. I know it's painful, but it IS what it is. Wishing doesn't change it.

 

I said that I thought a lot of our issues were that we didn't communicate with eachother properly, we never learned how and the relationship died because of it. I said a lot of other stuff about communication with us, and how symptoms played out negatively and he listened.

 

Nope, your relationship died because your husband BAILED on you. He did that because he's immature and he doesn't want the responsibility of a wife and child. He did that because he wants to be SINGLE. And honestly, there are probably REASONS unbeknownst to you WHY he wants to be single. I very much doubt that he's the innocent little victim he portrays himself to be. It's RARE for a man to give up 'the bird in the hand' without some other little bird in the bush.

 

He brought up how he hates it when I don't answer my phone. I told him I always answer when our son is with me so he can talk to him. He said ok. I thought it was good that he actually brought up a dislike instead of being robot man.

 

He has NO RIGHT at this point to dictate 'likes' or 'dislikes' to you. If he wanted to have something to say about when you answer your phone... he shouldn't have flaked out on you. And this guilt about letting him talk to his son has to stop. In the future, he's only going to be able to have contact with his kid on HIS visitation days.

 

Set rules. Set boundaries. Five years from now... YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WANT THIS GUY UP YOUR ASS ALL THE TIME. If you establish guidelines today, you won't have to be a bitch about it later.

 

He said that all he feels toward me right now is the way he would feel about an old friend. He said he doesn;t think I'm a bad person or anything but that he just doesn't have those relationship romance feelings for me anymore. He said he knows how he feels and he doesn't see that changing. I told him that I don't feel much more for him then that right now either.

 

Take him at his word then. And if you do... you're going to see that his offer of "friendship" is NOT good enough. This assh*le has changed the course of your life FOREVER... and the best reason he can come up with for that is... he doesn't have "romance feelings" for you anymore. Honey, THAT's because he's got them for someone else. WHY can't you see that????

 

You should be pissed off about this. He had NO RIGHT to get over there and arbitrarily change the dynamics of YOUR LIFE.

 

He asked me a few times if this was all becuase of our son, me trying... I said that was part of it of course, but I said no... I'm trying becuase I meant it when I said forever, for better or for worse. I know I can't help you right now becuase I'm not what you need, but I can be there.

 

Uuuuugggghhhh!!!!! WHY would you WANT to "be there" for him? He's put you up on the shelf so he can take you down and dust you off... IF... he ever "feels" like it. He's just had you confirm for him that you care enough to be compliant with that.

 

...he agreed to do phone counseling with me while he was there. My IC is really good and told me before that he would do this with him and I. He said that he doesn't think that he's going to change but if it will make me feel better then ok.

 

Not good enough. This is not "trying". This is appeasement just to get you off his back. What's worse, he's told you that right up front and TOTALLY got away with it.

 

Look. You are worth MORE than that. Like I told you pages ago... This guy needs to RUN in order to catch up with you. He needs to pull out all the stops and PROVE that he's a good enough guy for YOU to be willing to give him a little more of your time. Right now, TODAY, this guy has NOTHING of value to offer you, nothing you should want. Because if you have to 'talk him into' loving you and staying with you.. you'll be doing that for the REST OF YOUR NATURAL LIFE.

 

He's a little boy dressed up in a MAN-suit. You aren't anything more to him than last years tinker toys, to be tossed aside and picked up later IF he feels like it. DON'T stand for that. NOBODY should get to just PLAY with your life.

 

Then he made a joke about any guys who wanted to date me or who are talking to me will just have to wait for a while (I'm not sure how to take that).

 

He's just checking to make sure you're waiting "on the shelf". It also occurs to me that if he can catch you messing around, he can feel a little less like a dick for doing what he's doing. And he can close the door on any future with you without taking ALL the blame.

 

He asked if he could call me next weekend and I said yes. I thanked him for talking with me about us and for agreeing to the counseling. And that was it.

 

I'm with Gunny in that I don't believe anything positive will come of phone counseling.. and for the same reasons he's cited. This guy has already told you he's NOT going to try to accomplish any recovery and he's only doing it to appease you. That, along with the time difference, and the fact that he won't have to look into the counselor's face while he spins his web of deceit... I don't see how anything positive can be accomplished.

 

So what do you... my wonderful advice giving people think? I don't feel like he was Bullsh*ting me.

 

But he is. He's manipulating you like a puppet on a string. His agenda is to keep you and your son compartmentalized so he can take you both out and play with you when he pleases. Now, I realize that I'm making it sound like he's got this Machiavellian PLAN all worked out and is premeditated in his actions. In reality, I don't think he's got it that much on the ball. More likely, he's just an immature and deeply troubled individual.

 

But... for YOUR purposes, it doesn't make any difference. Because you still end up SCREWED.

 

My advice to you is the same it's always been. Be the hammer. Deal out some reality. You deserve better than to have to talk some idiot into loving you. You deserve better than to have to abase yourself by pleading with him. AND... if you set this precedent, you'll be doing it all your life.

 

What does your family say about all this, btw? Do you have a close relationship with them? Are they willing to help you get out of this situation?

 

I'll be honest.... I don't think there's anything a man could say to me to GET me to take him back if I'd been put through what you've been put through. If I were you, I'd proceed with divorce and I'd do it in such a way that this guy would have little if not NOTHING to say about it. I'd forecast my life five years into the future and decide where I want to be and how much contact I was willing to put up with. And it would be as little as possible.

 

Toward that end, I would move back to my home state and I'd whittle my STBX's visitation down to the bare minimum in the settlement. I would not give up holidays or summers, and I would not give in to any special travel arrangements. The onus would be on STBX to provide transportation and all that.

 

I would do that, not as a punitive measure, but rather to LIMIT his intrusion into the new life I'd established with my child. You know, five years from now... you'll probably be remarried. And if you're smart, the man you choose will be a TERRIFIC influence on your child. Liberal terms in visitation now will hinder this boy's future step-father in making a positive impact on his life. Leave some room for your future family, the one you can't see clearly right now but will end up meaning EVERYTHING to you.

 

Your STBX is in Korea.... and what's more, he WANTS this divorce more than you do. NOW is the time to set your terms and have them YOUR way. You can't decide to stay married without his enthusiastic cooperation, so you can't plan your marriage. But you can damn sure plan your divorce and have it suit YOU more than him. There's not a whole lot this guy can do to stop you from where he is.

 

Oh one more thing he said and I'm not sure where in the conversation he said it... he said that he's not on the market or anything or looing for that he said he thinks he's better off alone right now. I agreed with him and said that that was why I thought Korea was a good thing for him right now, and that I understood that he needed that and never got it after Iraq.

 

I still don't understand why you seem to believe there are no women in Korea.

 

....he did tell me that he was reading about divorce online, and looking up child support and things like that. That came up when I told him I had seen a lawyer and that if were going to do this we needed to get moving... this was before we talked about everything else of course.

 

Child support is usually the thing that concerns guys like him the most. So, I'm not surprised that he's looking it up online. Too bad he's not using that energy to figure out why he's such a putz.

Has he read any books, joined any forums, sought any counseling, or committed himself to ANY action which would help to preserve his family dynamic? And if not, what does that tell you???

 

What it should tell you is that YOU are going to be facing life as a divorced single mom. And I think it's something you need to face as a reality in your life. Maybe even something to look a little bit forward to. Because it represents an END to the craziness in your day-to-day, and it allows you to make way for something better in your future..

 

Toward that end... make sure you get whatever you can in your divorce settlement, not just child support but spousal support as well. It's going to have to last you for awhile, and no doubt he'll never give you a dime more than he's ordered to. So, put some of what you get in a 'lawyer fund' so you can drag his ass back into court as needed.

 

Honey... bottom line advice from me to you... Stop fooling around with this guy. As sorry as I am to say so, I honestly think he's playing you.

 

The only marginal possibility I can see for marital recovery is if he has to chase you down and prove his worth to you. He has to WANT you. He has to CHOOSE family life. I doubt he's man enough to do it. But I believe it's your only shot at reconciliation.

 

If you go ahead and divorce him.... he'll have no choice but to either 'PUT UP' or 'SHUT UP'.

[stubbornbutnice]

I know what you are going to say to this...but just take this as venting and don't be to hard on me please...

 

I just never thought he would be the type of person who would cheat. I'm only the second woman he's ever been with (and I know that is a possible reason for the cheating). I just can't believe he would throw everything away for someone else.

 

Does this mean he's in love with her? Is he going to bring her home and be with her now? If I never get an answer about if he really did cheat how do I deal with that? How can I attempt to prove it if I'm not there to see it? Is there some way to trick it out of him?

 

I don't want to prove anything becuase of the divorce, I want to prove it because it would give me great peice of mind. Knowing that he is having an affair would make me feel better in a way. I know I shouldn't listen to him guilting me or blaming me, but in the absence or him doing wrong it's so hard not to let it get to me.

 

My friend (also military) and I were talking this morning and she said what you guys have also said... he pulled this three weeks after getting over there. She's like he decided three weeks after getting over there that he was going to completely change his life, WTF is that? I hadnt really thought about it like that... I hadn't really thought about how short the time was that he had been there when this happened, because all i was focusing on was him telling me that he had been feeling this way for so long.

 

It made me sick to think about it from this new perspective. And with the sickness came a new clarity... As I sit here typing, and crying, I'm a mess, because I see what everyone is saying... for the first time I see the OW, and I think there is one. And suddenly I'm sick all over again. Oh God, this hurts so bad.

 

I called my counselor... I see him this afternoon... I called the lawyer... I see him in the morning.

 

I know all of you are right, and I know that me feeling like my insides are being ripped out is me trying to move on... But I can't say I've ever felt this way before, or cried this hard. I know what to do legally... but how do I make this feeling go away? I want my life back.

[Gunny376]

Lady Jane is much better at articulating things than I am, while I'm a little more subtitile about it!

 

Quit dancing with this guy, whack him up-side the head ~ its the only thing he's every going to understand ~ when you rain a world of hurt down on him, maybe, just maybe he'll understand.

 

Initially, I doubted that there might be a OW, but having lived in Okinawa for four years, there are those that learn the language and culture and are so infatuated with such that they do find GF's.

 

Its been my experience that to my knowledge ~ most ~ the vast majority don't cheat on their wives and GF's ~ they work a lot, the PT (exercise, throw weights,) a lot, they drink a lot, but they don't cheat. Its the old 10%/90% rule.

 

Lady Jane is right, there's no shortage of Korean women wanting to hook up with an American solider, get thier military dependent ID card and come to the land of the Big PX and WalMart! :eek:

 

Think I'm lying to you? Just go to the commissary and PX!

[MoonGirl]

You're getting great advice here. Some men (and women) simply don't understand what is at stake until their world comes crashing down on them. Take him for everything he's got - it was his decision to end things with you!

[Guest]

Hi! I'm so sorry for everything you are going through. My heart goes out to you....I understand the emotional turmoil you are in. One minute you feel your heart going one way...the next minute you feel it going the other way.

 

I've been through this. My daugher is now two...but my ex husband walked out when she was three months old. He was having an affair that i found out later started when I was pregnant. He jerked me around for almost two years. I gave him space and time. He just ended his affair last spring...met a new girl in the fall and now is already engaged.

 

He has been down right nasty to me. To everyone else...he acts like the greatest guy in the world....he has an amazing career, an excellent education....exct. What i'm trying to tell you....is take something from my situation....that I wish I would have done from the beginning. PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN. Don't take any crap from him. Everyone is right....he speaks the words ...but there are no actions. My ex was famous for this....and it only left me more hurt and heartbroken in the end.

 

You are a strong independent woman and you deserve better. Don't put up with the wishy washiness like I did. If he really wanted it to work in his heart....he would be do anything right now to make it happen. Because I put up with the wishy washiness for so long....it's taken a toll on me....and causing me even more problems with him now.

 

He thinks he can control everything with my daughter...and keeps asking for more visitation....exct......I even have full legal and physical custody...which he doesn't seem to "get" b/c he just does whatever he wants. Stand up to your husband now......so he knows from the beginning that you are not going to put up with this! Good Luck! You are in my thoughts!

[stubbornbutnice]

I just wanted to say that I had to reschedule my IC appointment for tomorrow... so we'll see how that goes. Althought my counselor emailed me back and said that if my H isn't in it to salvage the relationship then it won't do anything. Oh well.

 

You guys posted a lot and I'm reading and rereading so that I can answer you... I'll be back later when I've thought some more.

 

Thanks for the advice.

[Ladyjane14]

Does this mean he's in love with her? Is he going to bring her home and be with her now? If I never get an answer about if he really did cheat how do I deal with that? How can I attempt to prove it if I'm not there to see it? Is there some way to trick it out of him?

 

Usually in an infidelity scenario in which the cheater opts to leave the marriage... he at least features himself to be in love. This is 'infatuation', IMO. Infatuation might be viewed as the "seed" from which love can grow, but I personally don't consider it to BE love. It hasn't stood the test of time. The "new car smell" hasn't worn off.

 

I think you'll be hard-pressed to catch him out with as much physical distance as he's got. And although I'm not much for game-playing, but if it was me... I'd be tempted to give it a good old-fashioned try.

Sometimes if you act like you've already got the goods, they'll trip themselves. It's not easy though and they'll wriggle like a skewered snake.

 

I think I'd start with the "hysterical e-mail" sent during a time of day when YOU are most active and social. It needs to come off like you JUST heard the news and went right to your computer. Something along the lines of....

 

"You f*cking bastard. How stupid do you think I am? Did you think I'd never find out??? You know, I think that's probably the part that pisses me off the most... the fact that you think I'm so f*cking stupid.

 

There's only TWO things I want to hear from you at this point. One is how long this has been going on? And two is what the f*ck does she have that I don't??? And I don't want to hear another goddam thing from you other that that."

 

Now, the point of your two questions is NOT that he confirm the affair. You're not asking him IF he's cheating and you're not asking him who it's with... so he thinks you already know something.. (Unless he's cheating with another guy, and then you just tipped your hand. )

 

He's going to deny and deny and deny. He'll ask you what you heard and WHO is spreading these lies about him. But you don't talk to him. You hang up EVERY time after telling him that you just want the answers to your two questions. DO NOT ENGAGE HIM IN CONVERSATION. Unless he's willing to answer your two questions. Tell him all you want is your questions answered and NOTHING else.

 

This could go on for quite awhile. But if he's still pushing after a week or so, and still not willing to divulge any information... you can always up the ante and tell him. "Fine. I'll just turn my evidence over to your command then, but I WILL have my answers one way or the other."

 

Now, I have to warn you... there's NO WAY to actually make him tell. So if he sticks to his story, he's home-free. You'll NEVER know for sure. Right now, you don't have any hard evidence. All you have is his behavior. And there's a possibility.. (slim. if you ask me), that he might just be a complete immature doofus and NOT cheating at all.

 

More than likely though, the first woman he shows up with post-divorce will be the OW. That's the usual "PLAN"... keep the affair on the down-low and act like they just met.

 

This is another one of the reasons why I encourage you to set this divorce up the way you want. You don't want to end up stuck in the same town with an OW in your face, acting like she has any right to influence YOUR child.

 

 

 

You know ... you can always just divorce his silly ass and NOT give a crap if he cheated or not. I think you'd be wise to get checked for STD's though. You shouldn't compromise your own health just because you haven't busted him outright. You might want more children one day, you know. An asymptomatic STD could ruin your fertility.

[Gunny376]

Usually in an infidelity scenario in which the cheater opts to leave the marriage... he at least features himself to be in love. This is 'infatuation', IMO. Infatuation might be viewed as the "seed" from which love can grow, but I personally don't consider it to BE love. It hasn't stood the test of time. The "new car smell" hasn't worn off.

 

I think you'll be hard-pressed to catch him out with as much physical distance as he's got. And although I'm not much for game-playing, but if it was me... I'd be tempted to give it a good old-fashioned try.

Sometimes if you act like you've already got the goods, they'll trip themselves. It's not easy though and they'll wriggle like a skewered snake.

 

I think I'd start with the "hysterical e-mail" sent during a time of day when YOU are most active and social. It needs to come off like you JUST heard the news and went right to your computer. Something along the lines of....

 

"You f*cking bastard. How stupid do you think I am? Did you think I'd never find out??? You know, I think that's probably the part that pisses me off the most... the fact that you think I'm so f*cking stupid.

 

There's only TWO things I want to hear from you at this point. One is how long this has been going on? And two is what the f*ck does she have that I don't??? And I don't want to hear another goddam thing from you other that that."

 

Now, the point of your two questions is NOT that he confirm the affair. You're not asking him IF he's cheating and you're not asking him who it's with... so he thinks you already know something.. (Unless he's cheating with another guy, and then you just tipped your hand. )

 

He's going to deny and deny and deny. He'll ask you what you heard and WHO is spreading these lies about him. But you don't talk to him. You hang up EVERY time after telling him that you just want the answers to your two questions. DO NOT ENGAGE HIM IN CONVERSATION. Unless he's willing to answer your two questions. Tell him all you want is your questions answered and NOTHING else.

 

This could go on for quite awhile. But if he's still pushing after a week or so, and still not willing to divulge any information... you can always up the ante and tell him. "Fine. I'll just turn my evidence over to your command then, but I WILL have my answers one way or the other."

This is a brilliant plan! And very workable what with the twice weekly rotation fllights in and out of Korea. There are a lot of people in the Army ~ but it really is a small community where you even if you don't know someone ~ they know somone that knows someone that knows someone that knows you. or has heard such and such or so and so, ~ kind of like the six degrees of seperation to the 10th power!

 

Th guys that I knew that did cheat ~ overseas (there really weren't that many that I knew off ~ the married guys tended to hang on base around the barracks and BBQ or at the club ob base ~ with each other, while the single guys ran together out in the ville.) they weren't too discretionary about it.

 

You shouldn't compromise your own health just because you haven't busted him outright. You might want more children one day, you know. An asymptomatic STD could ruin your fertility.

Roger that! I had one of my staff sergeants get with a local bar girl in Thialand ~ they left togther and he came back about a half hour later, in shock and awe, and told the rest of the platoon ~ "THE CHICK WAS A DUDE!!!!" :eek: :eek: ~ :mad: :mad: (They're called "bennie-boys" and they're all over the place over there~! Its really hard to tell)

 

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Dumb-ass! Somethings you just carry to the grave with you!! :lmao: :lmao:

[Gunny376]

In so far as there being OW, its pretty far out there that she would ever make it to the States ~ less than 1 %. If so, the military would be very interested in this. It most likely would be a carrer ender for hm ~ not so much that they would kick him straight out of the Army ~ but he would get fined and get knocked down to the bottom his rank's linear list (i.e. say there are (keeping it simple) 500 captains in the Army with one being the highest and 500 being the lowest ~ and he ranks 396, he would be kocked back down to the 500 spot, and everyone that was below 396 would move up the list ~ in effect, he would never be promoted again due to that alone ~ not to mention the carrer ending fit rep he would get.

 

There's also the concept of "duty-station" girlfriends in the military in that they're just someone you date until you get your next set of orders ~ in effect you're just using them for your needs and convience ~ lying your ass off with all kinds of "I love you!" "Well soon be together ~ forever!" all that crap.

 

If there is OW ~ that more than likely the scenario, than you're being swapped in permantely for another woman.

[stubbornbutnice]

Hi my people... I'm still trying to smile... Ok let's get to all the great advice you guys laid on me.

 

You have stated your motive and the end result you are seeking, think back and tell me what you understand his to be. Then we can see if we agree with your answer and start again with helping you follow through. It may still lead you to the attorney's office but I would like for you to be convinced of this.

 

Empty... I really wanted to make it work... and I always read everything you post about you and your wife and you just said some days you don't even think about leaving and some days you don't... I could live with that from my H if he were committed to making our relationship work.

 

If we were in counseling and working toward saving our marriage and he was being honest with me about how he is feeling and what he is doing... in short if we were on the same page then I could deal with all of this. But it is clear that we are not. He doesn't want to try he just wants to be the good guy again. So as far as looking back, I don't think I can. Keep reading and you will understand.

 

And you need to give this guy a lesson in objectivity ~ and that lesson is "You don't screw around with me, my life, my child!" No "if's, ands, nor buts" that's not negotiable

 

Sending this guy divorce papers via the US Mail ~ doesn't mean you're getting divorced, it doesn't mean you want a divorce ~ it means you're finished playing these silly ass games with his ass! And you can even include a note or letter saying that!

 

Send him the divorce papers and include a letter, in it ~ tell him if you had your "druthers" you'd druther be married to him than any man on the planet, but if he wants out ~ then here's his out! Just sign on the dotted line have them notorized and send them back, but to e-mail you because you've got to make your mind up wheather your going to go out with either "Tom, Dick, or Harry?"

 

Gunny- My dad said something similar about writing him an email like what you wrote above. I get what you're saying.

 

LJ- Your post was dead on as usual . I could just quote the whole thing right back at you. ha ha.

 

Well I went to see my counselor this morning. I had emailed him my conversation just like I did for all of you so he knew what was going on before I got there. I asked him about the counseling and he said that there was no point in it if my husband was only going to try to make me feel better about the divorce. But he said that he would be more then happy to speak with him in whatever manner was convenient for my H so that he could confirm my husbands motives. He said if at that time my he concluded that my H was not in it to work toward saving the marriage that he would let him know that it would do me more harm then good at this point.

 

As for what you guys have said my counselor said the same thing... do the paperwork, you're moving backwards, I see no change in your H he says the same things over and over and has held fast to how he is feeling.

 

And the big one from my counselor was (I know you are all going to be nodding when you read this, yeah yeah )

 

"So far your H has not experienced any consequences for his actions. He emailed/ called you and said he wanted a D, and nothing has changed for him. He's living the easy life without any negative effects, even though he's turned your life upside down."

 

My counselor said that when my H calls this weekend that he's curious about what that will be about. He said your H asked permission to call you which is new, so he wonders what he'll want. He said that when he calls I can ask him why he's agreed to counseling. He said ask him, are you willing to try to save the marriage? If he says no then there's no need to pursue counseling... if he's just going to counseling to preserve a friendship then that is not what you (as in me) need. He said if he trys to chat with you after this question is answered with a no, reinforce your no chatting boundary and hang up.

 

I've been thinking nonstop since Saturday night when we got off the phone. I'm tired, I can't sleep or eat again... I feel like I started all over again with this, I know I haven't and that this is just a minor setback... but I thought it was telling that just when I thought I was getting the opportunity to work things out with my H, my gut started to object. Something in me thinks this is wrong... I'm not sure which part, whether it's that he's probably cheating, or he's just trying to string me along, but my gut tells me to walk. I'm really sad... <sigh>

 

I know it's only been two months of us being seperated and many couples work for longer then this... but I think those couples also have something to work with. I dont feel like he's given me a single thing to work with. I just can't do it by myself anymore. I shouldn't have to I know that.

 

I was talking to an Army E7 (SFC) yesterday and he was in Korea twice so he was kind of joking about the situation... He said yeah guys go over ther and some cheat on their wives... it happens. He said But you don't leave your family, you keep your mouth shut and take care of your responsibilities. He said my H's not in love he's in lust, and he'll come back feeling stupid. He looked me up and down (not in a rude way) and said when he's sees you again he's going to kick himself.

 

Then he made me laugh cause he said, unless you're psycho... are you psycho? HAHAHAHA... of course I said no. Another friend who's retired said the same thing to me though... you don't leave your family. There's no point to this little story I guess, I was just sharing.

 

So I'll let him call me this weekend...and I'll ask him the question. I'll get an answer. And I'll let him know that I've started the paperwork and that will be that.

 

And BTW for you curious people who might want to ask me what I will do if he says, but I do really want to try... I will tell him that he needs to call the counselor right away, and he needs to call his parents and let them know he's going to try to work it out with me, and we will set new boundaries in our first couneling session... I will make sure that he knows that if he's all in he has to prove it to me.

 

You know ... you can always just divorce his silly ass and NOT give a crap if he cheated or not. I think you'd be wise to get checked for STD's though. You shouldn't compromise your own health just because you haven't busted him outright. You might want more children one day, you know. An asymptomatic STD could ruin your fertility.

 

I pick this option... maybe I'll mess with him later about it, but I just can't care if he's screwing some other woman. It's his loss. If he can only be in a relationship when it's new and fun and exciting... and when there are no responsibilities then he's not what I was looking for. It's sad but it is what it is. As for the "screening"... I'm on it;) .

 

Well kids now you know where I'm standing... and I'm ok, well as ok as can be expected. I'm so glad that I have you guys to be there for me... Gunny, LJ, Legs, Empty, and others who have stopped in even just to say hi... I'm glad that I have you guys to be there for me... it really helps. Stick around with me so we can watch this play out together.

 

And from the mouth of my best friend I will leave you with her pick-me-up phrase that she told me recently...

 

"At least you only spent five years with his selfish, immature, stupid a*s... Be glad that you didn't waste "the pretty". "

 

PS- As for the posts... I emailed the mods through the "contact us" link several times... no luck. I don't know anyother way to contact them. Mods if you are readint this please please take pitty on me and help me fix my post lag time. Thank you!!!

[stubbornbutnice]

Just talked to the H because of a bill... it was a five minute phone call... no chit chat and I was pretty standoffish because I'm tired and becuase of the whole cheating thing... oh well. I'm still tempted to just let him have it about the cheating. Don't know.

[empty906]

SBN, I wanted you to be positive and confident about your decision. I wanted you to feel like the idea to D came from within and not from any of us. "Your gut feeling" is exactly what I was looking to read. You can proceed with your head held high because you know you are doing what needs to be done. You know you did everything else first and have drawn this conclusion after seeking counsel in many places. You didn't just get pissed off at H and retaliate. You thought it out, you planned, you questioned, you worked through a process and you made a decision. Very good work!!! You will be able to look him in the eye and not be phased by his stupid remarks or hurtful comments. You have done well, SBN. Bravo!!!