grab straws throw rock?

[sb129]

We Christians may have pain, but we live by Faith, not by SIGHT. it is true that Holy Spirit will guide us to make right decisions and teach us about secret about God and about truth about life. so we have more chances to have a rejoice and abundant life in this earth, like we are guided by a light in darkness. If we obey God's commandments, enter God's covenant, then we are protected by God. and we don't worry about life.

Yes, of course, I want you to be happy, that's why I tell all these things here

 

But I am perfectly happy without god in my life.

Can you accept that?

[sb129]

This line of argumentation would then lead us to believe that satan is also responsible for bad breath and flatulence...

 

How does the holy spirit protect one against these things???

 

Divine intervention: Stop eating beans and use a mouthwash.

[Topper]

The Facts are that a great many People of Faith including Christians suffer from Depression and Other emotional and mental problems.

[sb129]

Thank you Topper, you are absolutely right.

 

A believer with some sense!

 

I salute you. (unless you try to tell me that satan is behind it all)

[Topper]

No I'm not behind it all.................. Damn did I blow my cover?

[Moai]

No I'm not behind it all.................. Damn did I blow my cover?

 

Imagine where we would be if "Satan is behind it" was really an accepted explanation!

 

I also notice that believers take aspirin, take their children to the doctor, and have surgery. None of that would do any good if a supernatural being was the root cause of ailments. Surely Satan could thwart the best medicine easily. Why does he only go so far in afflicting people?

 

I mean, Satan is behind small pox, we developed a vaccine and now small pox doesn't exist. Does that mean that Satan abandoned small pox as a means of torture?

[Topper]

In the middle ages this was an easy way to explain bad things. People were kept uneducated and were fed suppositions by the Chruch. if your crops failed it was Satin or the Work of one of satins agents like a Witch. Witches were burned so they could be purified by fire. if you had an enemy you wanted to get rid of. Blame that person of Sorcery or Witchcraft. If you had a deformed baby that would be proof that you were evil and having sex with the Devil. Many families would simple kill a deformed new born rather then have someone find out and accuse them of being evil.

The black plague was of course the work of the Devil or it was Gods wrath on evil people. All this in the name of a loving Jesus and God.

i just love it when Preachers say something like the hurricanes were the work of God because New Orleans was an Evil City. How do they explain that in other parts of the golf Coast good devout Christians were also killed maimed, lost their homes and were financially ruined?

I do believe in a God I believe we were given a mind and a conscience. In our hearts we know when we are doing what we should be doing.

God is in the act of kindness. it is reaching out and giving a helping hand to those that need it. God is in the comforting of The Ill and dieing. Jesus was a great teacher, a Rabi worthy of our respect for that alone. He did as others have done give us some basic rules to live by. All the rest is just mans vanity.

[sb129]

No I'm not behind it all.................. Damn did I blow my cover?

 

 

Topper keep posting, we need more believers like you that have a sense of humour and irony!

[Topper]

How dare you accuse me of having a sense of humor !

[sb129]

oops. Does this mean i am going to hell now?

[bluetuesday]

But I am perfectly happy without god in my life.

Can you accept that?

 

i think littlebird's zeal gets the better of her sometimes. i think she probably just wants everyone to have one of what she's having. i do this in restaurants. try to feed people my dish because i'm convinced it's the best thing on the menu. but maybe they just want salad.

 

from the view point of many believers, finding god or realising their purpose gives them such a sense of wholeness that even though they felt before that they were happy or fulfilled, it pales in comparison to what they have now. that leads some to try to covert other people. but what the 'converters' fail to realise is not only do human beings have a healthy aversion to being railroaded into anything, but that the state of being without god is necessary for a soul to find god. the hellfire and brimstone brigade are looking at a very narrow picture and therefore they worry that unless they convert a person, that soul will be lost. this is very far from the real picture.

 

since i am certain of the existence of god, i can tell you that humans were designed to find ultimate meaning in their lives, to re-connect to their spiritual source (god) and fulfil their reason for existing. this process of discovering the reality of god and being god is in fact the only reason we exist. however, god is very, very patient and knows this process of re-connecting is a slow one which takes many, many lifetimes of experience to unfold.

 

bottom line is, no one 'gets' god until they're ready. experience makes people ready, but that's not to say that people who aren't ready are somehow worse or less than people who are ready. being at any stage of learning or growth is equally valid as being at any other stage. the same as being in reception class at school is not 'wrong' compared to being at university. it's just a reflection of your age and level of development at a certain point. as long as people are experiencing, they are learning. and eventually they will start to make the link between, for example, their state of mind and what happens to them in their life. but, at least in this world, it is ONLY when you've experienced the non-existence of god that the alternative becomes possible. planet earth is a schoolroom. as long as you're here, you're learning. it's all good.

 

i give my opinions freely but i hope it's not taken that i want to convert anyone. yes, i am aware that life is not ultimately pointless and in that way i am saying 'atheists will one day see more than they do now'. but that goes for myself as well. and i've made no judgment as to whether religious people are further along the spiritual path than atheists. personally, i think that one is probably too close to call.

[lonelybird]

Seeing as depression can be transient or chronic it can be described as a state and a disease...

 

If we were to follow LB's logic then satan is responsible for this.

 

So this would mean that satan is responsible for diseases...

 

 

Now there are many, many conditions which can afflict the human body and it would seem that satan is responsible for these...

 

This line of argumentation would then lead us to believe that satan is also responsible for bad breath and flatulence...

 

How does the holy spirit protect one against these things???

YES, Satan is responsible for these things.

 

How does the holy spirit protect one against these things?

Mt 17:20(1)"It was because you do not have enough faith," answered Jesus. "I assure you that if you have faith as big as a mustard seed, you can say to this hill, 'Go from here to there!' and it will go. You could do anything!"

[lonelybird]

Imagine where we would be if "Satan is behind it" was really an accepted explanation!

 

I also notice that believers take aspirin, take their children to the doctor, and have surgery. None of that would do any good if a supernatural being was the root cause of ailments. Surely Satan could thwart the best medicine easily. Why does he only go so far in afflicting people?

 

I mean, Satan is behind small pox, we developed a vaccine and now small pox doesn't exist. Does that mean that Satan abandoned small pox as a means of torture?

Many believers suffer depressions because they don't really understand the how great the GIFT is! God gave them tools and authority over Satan, but many of them don't use it and give it up, and didn't trust God with whole heart. If you don't use the Gift, it is as same as you don't have it in the first place.

 

Many disease both physical and mental are caused by people's mental situation. A joyful person has less chance to get disease. and a person's will power is the key to cure. Holy Spirit has power cure people physically and mentally, just that you must have faith on Him first. and big enough to be as same as the mustard seed

 

You think scientists got the ideas by themselves? No, God put those ideas in them, how pride!

[sb129]

i think littlebird's zeal gets the better of her sometimes. i think she probably just wants everyone to have one of what she's having. i do this in restaurants. try to feed people my dish because i'm convinced it's the best thing on the menu. but maybe they just want salad.

 

from the view point of many believers, finding god or realising their purpose gives them such a sense of wholeness that even though they felt before that they were happy or fulfilled, it pales in comparison to what they have now. that leads some to try to covert other people. but what the 'converters' fail to realise is not only do human beings have a healthy aversion to being railroaded into anything, but that the state of being without god is necessary for a soul to find god. the hellfire and brimstone brigade are looking at a very narrow picture and therefore they worry that unless they convert a person, that soul will be lost. this is very far from the real picture.

 

since i am certain of the existence of god, i can tell you that humans were designed to find ultimate meaning in their lives, to re-connect to their spiritual source (god) and fulfil their reason for existing. this process of discovering the reality of god and being god is in fact the only reason we exist. however, god is very, very patient and knows this process of re-connecting is a slow one which takes many, many lifetimes of experience to unfold.

 

bottom line is, no one 'gets' god until they're ready. experience makes people ready, but that's not to say that people who aren't ready are somehow worse or less than people who are ready. being at any stage of learning or growth is equally valid as being at any other stage. the same as being in reception class at school is not 'wrong' compared to being at university. it's just a reflection of your age and level of development at a certain point. as long as people are experiencing, they are learning. and eventually they will start to make the link between, for example, their state of mind and what happens to them in their life. but, at least in this world, it is ONLY when you've experienced the non-existence of god that the alternative becomes possible. planet earth is a schoolroom. as long as you're here, you're learning. it's all good.

 

i give my opinions freely but i hope it's not taken that i want to convert anyone. yes, i am aware that life is not ultimately pointless and in that way i am saying 'atheists will one day see more than they do now'. but that goes for myself as well. and i've made no judgment as to whether religious people are further along the spiritual path than atheists. personally, i think that one is probably too close to call.

 

That was a good post BlueTuesday. Thoughtful and intelligent.

 

But what of the believers who never falter in their belief?

 

Anyway, I am still OK without god- I am pretty sure that I will remain to be so in the future but thankyou for respecting that.

[sb129]

Many believers suffer depressions because they don't really understand the how great the GIFT is! God gave them tools and authority over Satan, but many of them don't use it and give it up, and didn't trust God with whole heart. If you don't use the Gift, it is as same as you don't have it in the first place.

 

Many disease both physical and mental are caused by people's mental situation. A joyful person has less chance to get disease. and a person's will power is the key to cure. Holy Spirit has power cure people physically and mentally, just that you must have faith on Him first. and big enough to be as same as the mustard seed

 

You think scientists got the ideas by themselves? No, God put those ideas in them, how pride!

 

 

hmmm.

the holy spirit could put the end to ALOT of suffering of innocent people if this were true.

And as for willpower as a cure?

 

try telling that to some terminal cancer sufferers and see how they respond.

 

LB, thats not zeal, its just naieve and stupid.

[lonelybird]

hmmm.

the holy spirit could put the end to ALOT of suffering of innocent people if this were true.

And as for willpower as a cure?

 

try telling that to some terminal cancer sufferers and see how they respond.

 

LB, thats not zeal, its just naieve and stupid.

If you don't know something others knows, you just cannot tell them that they are stupid. they didn't say "stupid" to you because they knew something and you didn't, did they?

[sb129]

Ok I take it back.

 

Its not stupid, but is also not true.

I don't think you have had any experience of serious illness or disability have you LB?

 

I have, and it is VERY VERY VERY sad and painful.

And whether god was in my life or not, the person I care about very very dearly will NEVER regain what he has lost- and he was only a child when it happened, so don't go spouting on about sinners getting whats due to them.

The event in question is what totally destroyed ANY faith I may have had in the possibility of there being a god.

It caused my family an IMMENSE amount of pain and sadness which will not go away if god is in my life.

 

If the holy spirit is so great, then how come it wasn't there for my family (some of whom DO still believe) when they needed it the most huh?

 

LB, you could cause alot of pain and hurt to sick people if you were to walk around a hospital saying "the holy spirit could heal you"- because the holy spirit WON'T heal them, modern medicine will.

 

And what if it doesn't?

 

There are many faithful believers out there who still die of illness, injury and disease.

 

Be careful what you say LB, because if you can't back it up with some kind of experience, you could offend people with your blind quoting of scriptures.

[sb129]

This just came on the radio. Sums up how I feel exactly.

 

I was taught and brought up there its laws to abide

And that the land that I live in has God on its side

 

Oh the history books tell it, they tell it so well

The cavalries charged, the Indians fell

The cavalries charged, the Indians died

For the country was young with God on its side

 

Oh the first World War, it came and it went

The reason for fighting I never could get

But I learned to accept it, accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead when God's on your side

 

And then the second World War, it came to an end

We forgave the Germans and now we are friends

Though they murdered six million, in the ovens they fried

The Germans now, too, have God on their side

 

But now we have weapons of chemical dust

And if fire them we're forced to, why then fire them we must

One push of the button and a shot the worldwide

And you never ask questions when God's on your side

 

'tho many a long hour I've thought on this

That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you, you will have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side

 

And now as I leave you, I'm weary as hell

The confusion I'm feelin', there ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head and drop to the floor

That if God's on our side, he'll stop the next war.

 

[sb129]

And one more thing- my personal situation PLUS my strong science background is what makes me believe there is no God.

 

Modern medicine couldn't completely restore my family member to perfect health, but it DID save his life. He would be dead if he had lived even 50 years ago.

 

And if god and the holy spirit are behind it, how come this particular branch of medicine is so new? Have they only just "revealed" it to us? How come when it could have saved thousands of lives over the last few thousand years? And saved many people from grief.

 

Explain that. Without scripture preferably.

[lonelybird]

Explain that. Without scripture preferably.

impossible, please read this carefully

 

WHERE IS GOD WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN?

 

September 11, 2001

 

A sermon delivered at St Andrews Presbyterian following the terrorist attack of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon

I feel a bit like the writer of the epistle of Jude who set out to write one kind of epistle, but who was compelled to write something else. I had a sermon picked out and prepared and then events happened in the world this week which demand a response.

Planes plunging from the sky, not by accident, but through the deliberate and malignant hand of man who is out to murder his fellow man. I watched the news on Tuesday with the rest of you and was shocked and sickened and saddened and grieved with the rest of you. Paula had students in her class who had families who were working in the World Trade Center. I could not but help but think of my fellow fire fighters who responded to the Twin Towers in an attempt to save lives, only to have the second plane and then the subsequent collapse of the two buildings take their own lives.

Within the space of a few hours, our perception of the world seems to have been incredibly altered. As Christians, we are forced to ask, "Where is God when bad things happen?"

 

It is not a new question. It is one that has been asked by every generation. It is echoed in the pages of the Bible.

 

When I think of this question, I am drawn naturally to the person of Job. You remember his story. Job was a man who had everything. A family. Wealth. Respect. Health. And in a single day it was all taken from him. He was sitting and watching the news at noon when there was a flash.

[*]A group of terrorists attacked his servants, killed them all and made off with all of his oxen and all of his donkeys.

[*]Fire came down from heaven and consumed all of his sheep and all of the servants that were watching them. There was nothing left but smoke on the skyline.

[*]Another group of terrorists attacked those servants who were watching his camels and they were all taken.

[*]There was a structural collapse and all of his children were killed (7 sons, 3 daughters).

 

What was Job's reaction? Sorrow? Grief? Certainly! But in the midst of that grief, he worshiped the Lord, saying.

 

"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." (Job 1:21).

 

There is a wonderful sense of Job's recognition of the fact that he owns nothing and that God owns everything. He says, "I came into this world with NOTHING." He recognizes that anything that has been given to him has been given from the hands of a God of grace and that Job is only a steward.

 

 

During our last trip to Moldova, we loaned Sky the use of one of our cars. It made it a bit easier for her and Lance for those several weeks and she appreciated its use. When we got back and I went to get my car back, she didn't say, "Well I've been driving that car and you shouldn't take it back." She considered herself fortunate to have been able to use it for that period.

 

Job recognizes the same thing, not about a car, but about everything. He has a proper theology of nakedness that says, "Everything is God's. I am only given my possessions on a temporary loan from God and if He wants them back it is okay."

 

As we read the book of Job, we are privy to some facts of which Job himself was ignorant. We are given the behind-the-scenes view into heaven itself. We see how Satan came into the presence of God and how God said,

 

"Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." (Job 1:8).

 

Satan goes on to accuse Job and to challenge his faithfulness and God responds to the challenge by granting permission for Satan to afflict him. We learn from our vantage point that Job was involved in a spiritual conflict of epic proportions.

 

But Job didn't know that. He wasn't aware of anything until one day when the roof caved it. And it did not stop there. Satan once again comes into the presence of God and accuses Job. He says to God, "Job only remains faithful to you because he is in good health." And so God allows Satan permission to take away Job's health. He is afflicted with boils from head to toe. Painful. Irritating. Ugly. Full of puss.

 

Everything he has is gone. No family. No possessions. No health. The only thing that has not been taken is his nagging wife.

 

Then his wife said to him, "Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!"

 

But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?"

In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (Job 2:9-10).

 

Once again, his reply is a wonderful reflection of his understanding of the sovereignty of God. He knows that all the good that he has ever received came from God and he knows that God has allowed this calamity to come as well.

 

.....

Next Job is joined by three friends. They come and they sit with him in silence for a solid week. They suffer with him and they mourn with him and as long as they do that, they are a great help to Job. There are times when words merely get in the way and when the best thing to do is to be with someone in their grief and to be silent. These three friends do exactly that for an entire week and then they ruin it all by speaking.

 

Their message is the complete antithesis of that which was suggested by Job's wife.

[*]She said, "Curse God and die."

[*]They say, "Curse Job and live."

 

Their message is that good things happen to good people and that bad things happen to bad people, so Job must have done something very bad to deserve these calamities, so he needs to repent and confess that bad sin he is hiding and return to God and then everything will be okay.

 

The next 30 chapters are made up of Job arguing with his three friends as he insists his own innocence and they insist that he must be guilty of some hidden sin. In those chapters, his friends give us some excellent theological reasons why bad things happen. A lot of what they say is very accurate. But their advise isn't applicable to Job. It is like the professor who gave an essay test and one of the students wrote a long and precise and a detailed answer. But when he got his paper back, the professor had written, "That is an excellent answer to the wrong question." Good advice, but it doesn't fit. A good diagnosis, but to the wrong disease.

 

Neither those friends nor Job could see the real reason for Job's troubles. There are some things that happen in this life for which we see no reason. It will not be until we get to heaven that we will see the whole picture and then we will understand.

 

Job continues to maintain his innocence. He says...

[*]I made a covenant with my eyes that I would not look on a woman to lust (31:1).

[*]I gave food and clothing to the poor and the widow and the orphan (31:16-20).

[*]I did not let my own prosperity get in the way of my relationship with God (31:24-28).

 

Finally in chapter 38, the Lord Himself answers Job. "Finally!" we think, "God is going to appear to Job and tell him all of the reasons for his sufferings and Job will see and hear and understand. God is going to let Job in on what we saw in chapters one and two and which has been hidden from Job in all these succeeding chapters."

 

It doesn't happen. God doesn't give Job any of the reasons. He doesn't give to him the behind-the-scenes glimpse that we have had.

 

It isn't that there are no reasons. From our vantage point we can see all sorts of reasons. We can see the ramifications of the heavenly conflict between God and Satan. We can see how God is building up Job's character and developing a message that he will spread to future generations. But God doesn't tell Job any of that.

[*]God doesn't give Job any answers to his questions.

[*]God doesn't give Job any comfort in his situation.

 

He will eventually. Before the book is done, Job will have a new family and renewed possessions and renewed vigor of health. But none of that comes right now.

Instead, God says to Job, "Who are you to question Me?"

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

 

"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:1-7).

 

"Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, and caused the dawn to know its place?" (Job 38:12).

 

"Have you entered into the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness? Have you understood the expanse of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this." (Job 38:16-18).

 

"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, Or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth a constellation in its season, And guide the Bear with her satellites? Do you know the ordinances of the heavens, Or fix their rule over the earth? Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, So that an abundance of water may cover you? Can you send forth lightnings that they may go And say to you, 'Here we are'? Who has put wisdom in the innermost being, Or has given understanding to the mind? Who can count the clouds by wisdom, Or tip the water jars of the heavens" (Job 38:31-37).

 

Then the LORD said to Job, "Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it." (Job 40:1).

 

Do you see the continuing refrain? God says to Job, "Who are you?" It is a rhetorical question. No answer is needed. When you stand in the presence of God, it is evident that we are in no position to pass judgment upon God.

Job gets the point. He understands it. He says: "Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to Thee? I lay my hand on my mouth. Once I have spoken, and I will not answer; Even twice, and I will add no more." (Job 40:3-5).

 

Job got the point. He has no answer for the God of the universe. He has spoken before in the presence of his friends, by he is not able to speak in the presence of God. God answers, "I'm not finished yet."

 

Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm, and said, "Now gird up your loins like a man; I will ask you, and you instruct Me. Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified? Or do you have an arm like God, And can you thunder with a voice like His? (Job 40:6-9).

 

And so, God continues for another two chapters in asking Job what is essentially the same question, "Who are you?" The amazing thing about this is that Job was satisfied. His reply shows a turning point in his thinking.

Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that Thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted." (Job 42:1-2).

 

"I have heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now my eye sees Thee; therefore I retract, and I repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:5-6).

 

He understands and he repents of his former attitude of pride and arrogance and of thinking that he has the right to question God. And God forgives Job. We know that by the conclusion of the story.

 

And it came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has." (Job 42:7-8).

 

Do you see the continuing refrain? Four times the Lord speaks of "My servant Job." He not only rebuked the three friends of Job, but he also tells them that if they want to get right with God then they must have Job intercede on behalf of them.

 

There are some important lessons that we learn from the book of Job.

[*]We learn that God is both all-loving as well as all-powerful. A lot of people seem to think that God must be either one or the other. Either He must be a God of love but He isn't all-powerful, or else He must be a sovereign and all-powerful God who isn't very nice. Job teaches us that He is both powerful and good.

 

Evil enters the world, not through the hands of God, but through Satan. And although Satan is able to perform his deeds, it is only at the permission of God and only as God has allowed him to work.

[*]When you face suffering and tragedy, it is good to express your grief and your trouble to God, but do not think that you are in a position to pass judgment upon God. Job himself learned that lesson. Then Job answered the LORD, and said,

 

"I know that Thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted. 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." (Job 42:1-3).

 

There is no neutrality when it comes to judging between God and man. Either we are in a position to judge God or else God is in a position to judge us. Job learned the lesson that God is our judge and he learned to allow God to be God.

 

That is why God asked Job all those rhetorical questions:

[*]Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

[*]Did you have a hand in creating the seas and the oceans?

[*]Were you there when I made day and night?

[*]Did you set a day at 24 hours?

[*]Did you place the stars in the sky? Can you move them about by the strength of your own will?

 

The point is that God knows a lot more about the workings of His universe than you do. And that brings us to our second point.

[*]God is in control, even when it doesn't seem as if He is. We have seen some terrible things this past week, but we must remember that it is not that God somehow has lost the power or insight to direct the affairs of our little planet.

Jesus warned us that we would see kingdoms rise and we would see kingdoms fall and that would not mean that God had lost control. God is building His own kingdom and THAT is the only kingdom that shall endure forever.

[*]God has a purpose in what He allows, even if we don't know what it is. We look at tragedies and they appear to be meaningless and senseless and chaotic, but God knows how to take even tragedies and bring good out of them. He is able to cause all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28).

 

That does not mean that bad things do not happen. A great evil has taken place and as long as the Evil One is on planet earth evil things will continue to take place. Our comfort is in knowing that God specializes in taking such evil and bringing good out of it.

[*]There is a war going on and it is not only the war that is apparent. Both Congress and the President of the United States have been talking about declaring war on the perpetrators of those heinous attacks that we have witnessed this past week. We can and we should be in prayer for our government leaders as they combat terrorism.

 

But we should also be aware that there is another enemy behind the enemy. There is an invisible force at work and there is an unseen battle going on behind the battle. While our country utilizes sophisticated intelligence and sophisticated military strategies to conduct their war, we also have weapons to be utilized in the unseen war.

 

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

 

Therefore, take up the full armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

 

Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming missiles of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:12-17).

 

There is a call to arms given. It is not only for those who are of a certain age, but for Christians of all ages, whether children or grey haired. These are the weapons that will ultimately carry the day.

 

[*]Tragedy can serve as a wake-up call. C.S. Lewis described pain as "God's megaphone to a deaf world." We live in a nation that has been increasingly deaf to the Word of God. There is a message that is being delivered to us. It is a message designed to call us to repentance.

 

Terrorism is nothing new. It was taking place in Christ's day.

 

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And He answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:1-3).

 

This was not the actions of a proper government. Pilate was not putting down a rebellion or keeping the peace. He had murdered people as they went to worship. They were in church and he sent his soldiers in and slaughtered them. Notice the response of Jesus to this terrible murder of these people. He says that there is a message there for US. It is that we need to repent.

 

[*]God has not remained distant from us in our pain.

 

That is the message of the cross. It is that God drew near. He took on flesh and He walked our dirty streets and He went to our dirty cross and He felt the pain and the pathos as He took upon Himself the penalty for our sins.

A man grieving for his lost son looked up and asked, "Where was God when my son died?" And the answer echos back from the cross, "I was here in the same place as when My Own Son died."

 

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16).

 

The events of the past few days have changed us. They have left many of us shaken and unsettled and questioning. A great evil has taken place. But the good news is that there is a place to which you can go. There is One who left heaven to come to earth and die for sins. His work is to overcome all evil and He has won a great victory. Death may be an ongoing enemy, but death itself has been defeated. And because of this, there is hope even in such troubled times.

[sb129]

I can't even begin to read that, because it will just make me mad and upset me even more.

maybe later, I have to go now, but its no use Lonelybird you won't convert me.

 

Thanks for taking the time to find a passage you felt was relevant, but a more personal response from YOUR heart would have been more appreciated.

[lonelybird]

I can't even begin to read that, because it will just make me mad and upset me even more.

maybe later, I have to go now, but its no use Lonelybird you won't convert me.

 

Thanks for taking the time to find a passage you felt was relevant, but a more personal response from YOUR heart would have been more appreciated.

I learned many from this article. It is positive.

My attitude

 

All things including me are God's

If He give me materials and happiness, I appreciate

If He take them back, I am ok because they don't belong to me in the first place.

 

Faith is also an attitude thing. Like a rock, if you hold it, no matter what situation you meet, you will have hope and be able to overcome the situation. God is rock, Jesus is our hope. Jesus defeated death for us already, the only thing we need to do is to humbly accept Him and appreciate and repent.

 

I don't want to convert you. Just chat

[bluetuesday]

And if god and the holy spirit are behind it, how come this particular branch of medicine is so new? Have they only just "revealed" it to us? How come when it could have saved thousands of lives over the last few thousand years? And saved many people from grief.

 

Explain that. Without scripture preferably.

 

i can try to explain the intellectual progression of humankind without reference to scripture but WITH the inclusion of god in the picture. it may not be an explanation you accept, but i'll have a go!

 

the situation ISN'T that god is working separately from man. the situation is that god and man work together. god is not a separate being in the sky who imposes his will on humans, or withholds favours he could grant. this is a very distorted view of god which leads to so much anger and confusion. rather, humans are a part of god, their core being - their spirit - is a little bit of god expressing itself in this part of its creation. there is a bigger part of god, which for simplicities sake, i will call 'the creator'.

 

so imagine that the creator is your dad. your dad knows that when you're older and able to cope with them responsibly, having power tools will be useful to you. you'll be able to build stuff, make a new environment for yourself outside the family home etc etc. but as a child, a responsible father would never hand you a chainsaw. so being handed down power tools from your dad is a two way street. part of it is you proving you're responsible enough to handle them. part of it is him assessing you're ready. without both of those elements, you don't get the handed-down tools.

 

now when we look at the human history that's recorded on this planet, there are times when the knowledge we have now and use safely, might have been dangerous in the past. for example, having the ability to give people blood transfusions would be extremely dangerous without having an understanding of blood groups. so even though a loving father COULD tell its child about the ability to use one person's blood to save the life of another person, he wouldn't do this until the child had a good understanding of the background.

 

this is the reason you only get to mix volatile chemicals together in a lab when you've done chemistry for a few years at school. imagine giving that knowledge to a small child? children don't see the consequences of their actions. it would be an unkind act to give a child dangerous substances.

 

it is the same with the creator. we don't get knowledge before we can handle it responsibly. i personally have been inspired to see things or understand things only when i am ready to do so. if i had been given the knowledge earlier i could have misused it.

 

the creator knows how to cure all diseases - and the creator knows that diseases need never affect anyone. but think carefully about whether, if that knowledge was on general release, people could use it to harm other people. would people try to control that knowledge? would governments want populations who were disease free? would powerful commercial conglomerates which thrive on selling you the dream of eternal youth be happy with release of this knowledge? would people misuse the knowledge and think 'if i'm never going to get sick i can do what i want with my body'. if the population was about to skyrocket since no one was getting sick, do you think some people might seek to control it in other ways?

 

see, it's not as simple as saying if god could he should, otherwise he's evil. i don't think we're ready for that much power yet. people on an individual basis might be ready, and to them, knowledge is given. this can come in the form of insights you couldn't see before, inspiration to try something completely different, or a light going on when you realise if you connected two concepts no one has ever put together before, you will solve a scientific puzzle.

 

einstein was a peaceful man and someone whose life was based on the search for truth. he was ready for E=mc2. but that knowledge, against his wishes, led to the development of the atomic bomb. the people who learned it from him used it to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people. it's a cliche but with knowledge comes great responsibility. and since the very purpose of life is growth towards god, the creator has to think very carefully about whether the release of certain knowledge would harm or help that growth.

 

this is not the whole picture, of course. there are reasons people get sick that are not random. sickness in the body or the mind has much bigger causes than bad luck. and healing people is not always the best thing for their spirit. some people will only learn what is bad for them by living with the consequences of their actions. it's no good healing a burns victim who intends on the day he gets released from hospital to set himself on fire again. until that burns victim sees the connection between his actions and his pain, he hasn't learned a thing. it sounds extreme, but i believe some souls need to experience their body dying in order to learn. and if that is what they need before they transcend the need to harm themselves, that's exactly what they'll get.

 

so asking why god doesn't always heal or why we haven't always known what we know now is a very complex question with a huge answer. the creator always sees the big picture we can't see from our limited perspective, and he chooses to protect his children from knowledge that could (by people intent on retaining power even if it causes harm - many of these people run our biggest companies and most powerful nations) - be used against them for very un-godly means.

[sb129]

Once again Blue Tuesday thank you for your thoughtful and interesting posts.

 

I still can't see it that way I'm afraid.

 

Thats OK tho, differences in opinion make the world go around.

[lonelybird]

i can try to explain the intellectual progression of humankind without reference to scripture but WITH the inclusion of god in the picture. it may not be an explanation you accept, but i'll have a go!

 

the situation ISN'T that god is working separately from man. the situation is that god and man work together. god is not a separate being in the sky who imposes his will on humans, or withholds favours he could grant. this is a very distorted view of god which leads to so much anger and confusion. rather, humans are a part of god, their core being - their spirit - is a little bit of god expressing itself in this part of its creation. there is a bigger part of god, which for simplicities sake, i will call 'the creator'.

 

so imagine that the creator is your dad. your dad knows that when you're older and able to cope with them responsibly, having power tools will be useful to you. you'll be able to build stuff, make a new environment for yourself outside the family home etc etc. but as a child, a responsible father would never hand you a chainsaw. so being handed down power tools from your dad is a two way street. part of it is you proving you're responsible enough to handle them. part of it is him assessing you're ready. without both of those elements, you don't get the handed-down tools.

 

now when we look at the human history that's recorded on this planet, there are times when the knowledge we have now and use safely, might have been dangerous in the past. for example, having the ability to give people blood transfusions would be extremely dangerous without having an understanding of blood groups. so even though a loving father COULD tell its child about the ability to use one person's blood to save the life of another person, he wouldn't do this until the child had a good understanding of the background.

 

this is the reason you only get to mix volatile chemicals together in a lab when you've done chemistry for a few years at school. imagine giving that knowledge to a small child? children don't see the consequences of their actions. it would be an unkind act to give a child dangerous substances.

 

it is the same with the creator. we don't get knowledge before we can handle it responsibly. i personally have been inspired to see things or understand things only when i am ready to do so. if i had been given the knowledge earlier i could have misused it.

 

the creator knows how to cure all diseases - and the creator knows that diseases need never affect anyone. but think carefully about whether, if that knowledge was on general release, people could use it to harm other people. would people try to control that knowledge? would governments want populations who were disease free? would powerful commercial conglomerates which thrive on selling you the dream of eternal youth be happy with release of this knowledge? would people misuse the knowledge and think 'if i'm never going to get sick i can do what i want with my body'. if the population was about to skyrocket since no one was getting sick, do you think some people might seek to control it in other ways?

 

see, it's not as simple as saying if god could he should, otherwise he's evil. i don't think we're ready for that much power yet. people on an individual basis might be ready, and to them, knowledge is given. this can come in the form of insights you couldn't see before, inspiration to try something completely different, or a light going on when you realise if you connected two concepts no one has ever put together before, you will solve a scientific puzzle.

 

einstein was a peaceful man and someone whose life was based on the search for truth. he was ready for E=mc2. but that knowledge, against his wishes, led to the development of the atomic bomb. the people who learned it from him used it to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people. it's a cliche but with knowledge comes great responsibility. and since the very purpose of life is growth towards god, the creator has to think very carefully about whether the release of certain knowledge would harm or help that growth.

 

this is not the whole picture, of course. there are reasons people get sick that are not random. sickness in the body or the mind has much bigger causes than bad luck. and healing people is not always the best thing for their spirit. some people will only learn what is bad for them by living with the consequences of their actions. it's no good healing a burns victim who intends on the day he gets released from hospital to set himself on fire again. until that burns victim sees the connection between his actions and his pain, he hasn't learned a thing. it sounds extreme, but i believe some souls need to experience their body dying in order to learn. and if that is what they need before they transcend the need to harm themselves, that's exactly what they'll get.

 

so asking why god doesn't always heal or why we haven't always known what we know now is a very complex question with a huge answer. the creator always sees the big picture we can't see from our limited perspective, and he chooses to protect his children from knowledge that could (by people intent on retaining power even if it causes harm - many of these people run our biggest companies and most powerful nations) - be used against them for very un-godly means.

Excellent post! especially the responsibility part. More power, more responsibility. and God will not entrust a person (who is selfish and not ready) the power of Holy Ghost. But Faith is for everyone. Here raise questions. Do people have a certain spiritual growth path? Do they have different levels of spiritual growth? Is it necessary that people have to get to certain degree of spiritual growth to know God? Can they jump several degrees?

 

I remember a pastor talked about Abraham H. Maslom (a psychologist) 5 needs theory. Maslom think human being has 5 basic needs. and he think when the first need met, then human being will go to 2nd need. then 3rd, then 4th, 5th. The 4th and 5th are in spiritual realm. But I've seen many poor people who have a higher moral level than the rich ones. and rich ones can stuck somewhere not to grow anymore, and some of them are very pride.

 

According to Jesus, we seek kingdom of God first (spiritual realm), then other basic needs will be met, which is opposite of Maslom theory and nature way of this world

 

Matthew 6:32 (These are the things the pagans are always concerned about.) Your Father in heaven knows that you need all these things.

Matthew 6:33 Instead, be concerned above everything else with the Kingdom of God and with what he requires of you, and he will provide you with all these other things.

 

and some very poor people in Jesus time got healed by power of Holy Spirit simply by believing in Jesus. Some of them lived by begging food from others. and they got healed! Didn't seem they have higher moral levels than others or have a more delicate set of moral rules at the time they got healed? but one thing for sure, they are very humble in heart due to their social status, they were hungry for love and care, and in a state of willing to surrender higher source. SO this means everybody can get to know God no matter what degree they are on their spiritual path. Simply by HUMBLE, SURRENDER.

 

And I found the people who are self-rightenousness and pride are the ones who difficult to get through. They think they are good people, well, in THEIR terms and in this WORLD terms, so they don't need God's forgiveness. This is the most sad part.