Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[ironpony]

We are not technically engaged yet but we have talked about getting married often. She brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I thought about it for a while and said yes.

 

She became very upset and started throwing up even. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

 

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

 

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

 

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

[Downtown]

Pony, I think you should find a better GF. The prenup only serves to protect savings accumulated prior to the marriage, particularly when one party has saved far more than the other. It does nothing to prevent your GF from obtaining half of all your future earnings and investment gains during the marriage. Hence, she's claiming that you're not marriage material unless you're willing to take care of her -- starting by giving her half of everything you've saved in the past.

[d0nnivain]

Marriage is about love. Divorce is about money.

 

 

DH & I have one. Honestly it was one of the best things we did. Creating the pre-nup forced us to think about all sorts of issues & discuss them. We did it in a loving spirit trying to find a path together rather than in a divorce when you hate the other person. Because we had these talks, it improved our communication & I think was the best exercise we could have done to prevent divorce.

 

 

A true pre-nup is not a take it or leave it proposition. It's a negotiation. Also the longer the marriage lasts, the less valid the pre-nup. By law a pre-nup cannot control what's in the best interests of the child so it doesn't govern custody.

 

 

FWIW, you don't need one if your assets are relatively equal coming into the marriage. A prenup is imperative when one person brings in much more or if there is real estate & businesses involved. A pre-nup only governs assets that 1 party acquired before the marriage. Anything you obtain together after marriage is marital property subject to equitable distribution.

 

 

IMO, you GF's attitude is uninformed & immature. It tells me she is not ready for marriage

[carhill]

Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

 

We are not technically engaged yet but we have talked about getting married often. She brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I thought about it for a while and said yes.

 

Kudos for taking some time before responding. That shows reflection rather than snap response.

 

She became very upset and started throwing up even. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

 

That's her choice. A relevant response to that can be "I'd like to discuss this more and firmly believe this action can protect both of us and our future children by clarifying our rights and responsibilities upfront"

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

 

That's her opinion. How does she judge your character? You mention she's your closest female friend. I presume she knows you well. Does she view you as having questionable intentions or being a man of honor and commitment? Why?

 

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

 

IMO, no. Neither would it be a jerk move for her to bring it up if your positions were reversed, or even if you and she were on par financially. You're considering a legal partnership. Big step. These sorts of discussions will occur throughout a marriage. How you and she approach them and resolve them speaks to the health of your partnership.

 

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

 

My response, as middle ground, would be to suggest PMC and to continue the discussion there. Yeah, that costs some money but you are aware of how much a professionally prepared pre-nup costs, right? How much a divorce costs, right? Take it from a guy who's been down this road, if you love her, get thee to PMC, pay for it and accept the results. If there's no middle ground with her, yeah, move on. Plenty of fish in the billions.

[MightyPen]

We are not technically engaged yet but we have talked about getting married often. She brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I thought about it for a while and said yes.

 

She became very upset and started throwing up even. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

 

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

 

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

 

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

 

She became so upset she threw up? And then she threatened you with not having kids and gave you a month ultimatum? Geez

 

I think you dodged a bullet with this. People try to get all romantic about love and marriage and that stuff, but when it comes down to it, a marriage is a partnership and when there are HUGE differences, such as in handling money, generally HUGE problems result.

 

You have enough cash on hand to flat out buy a house? And she has $50 to her name and lives paycheck to paycheck? There are red flags and sirens and buzzers and buttons making sci-fi sounds and all sorts of other alarms here.

 

Please don't ignore her reaction or give in to her demands. She's either the type of woman who assumes her husband will be her ATM or else she really has't thought any of this through. Either way is problematic.

[BettyDraper]

I don't think it is wrong to ask for a prenup. I do, however, think it is wrong to draft a prenup that is completely unfair to the partner who has less. Too many women are overly romantic about marriage when it is a business arrangement as much as it is a partnership. Marriage often ends in divorce so it makes sense for people to want to protect themselves. Your girlfriend is living in a fantasy world; looks like she's watched too many Disney movies.

 

That said, my husband makes far more than I ever will and he is the breadwinner. I married him when he had nothing and that's probably one of the reasons we don't have a prenup. He knows that I am not with him only for what he can provide. The only reason I do not work are health issues and the awful employment situation where we live. We moved here in order to afford to buy a house and we were aware of the dismal employment prospects here. If my husband said that he wanted a post nuptial agreement, I wouldn't mind signing one because I respect his hard work and sacrifices.

[Miss Peach]

Knowing what I know now, I would never marry again without a prenup. I wouldn't feel comfortable going into a marriage without having done these types of discussions and negotiations beforehand.

 

FWIW I am divorced. When I married XH he brought in more than me in assets but also had a sizable amount of debt. I didn't really have either. So I never really insisted because I felt he had more to lose and he didn't seem to care. Even in that situation I wish we should have had it because money was the biggest fight in our divorce. Shortly after we married I climbed up the career ladder and I out-earned him by quite a bit and helped him pay his debts. IME it would have been helpful to have already discussed this stuff when we were in a better frame of mind. Trying to negotiate these things when both people are hurting is not good.

 

Coming from a woman's position some women will assume it's because you have doubts or think you may divorce. It's an emotional response. I assume with the threats your GF made this is what she is feeling. It's not necessarily a rational response.

 

The part that bothers me the most is how she is acting. She cannot necessarily help the way she feels. But she can control her actions. While she has every right to say and do things like no children, she will leave in a month, etc. it would bother me going into marriage. Marriage is all about negotiations - from little to big things. If you can't do that as a couple then it's potentially a compatibility issue IMO. I second the recommendation for PMC. It sounds like you need a third party to help you two learn to negotiate.

[d0nnivain]

I don't think it is wrong to ask for a prenup. I do, however, think it is wrong to draft a prenup that is completely unfair to the partner who has less.

 

 

A completely lopsided pre-nup may not be enforceable, especially if the other party didn't have representation, time to think about it & the ability to negotiate it.

 

 

A good pre-nup is not about cramming something down the other person's throat.

 

 

The fact that the OPs GF got violent & petulant, tells me she may not be marriage material.

[DreamP]

I would never sign a pre-nup. A man is asking me to share MY LIFE with him. His fortune, even if he was Bill Gates, is nothing compared to that. To me, he doesn't know me at all because, a) i would never go after his wealth if we divorced, b) I am a smart person who wouldn't made stupid financial mistakes. If a man felt like he needs a pre-nup, then we aren't really to be married. But that is just me.

 

Your gf sounds like she is not so financially stable. Unless you are Bill Gates who has so much assets that getting that money caught up in a divorce could have devastating consequences to other people and companies, I don't believe in pre-nups. It doesn't sound like you have that much money. You either accept the responsibility to partnering with somebody who is not financially strong, or you go find somebody else. It is OK if she isn't good financially as long as she recognizes that and is willing to let you control that part of your lives.

 

So to answer your question, you are not being a jerk, but you are being foolish. You really don't have enough assets to make this an issue. And you also need to face the reality of whom you are choosing to share a life with. Also, living paycheck to paycheck doesn't necessarily mean she is terrible with money. Maybe she just needs some guidance.

[carhill]

OP, in the interim, since this is apparently a path you will explore with a future marital partner, IMO become conversant with the process by interviewing a couple of family law attorneys who specialize in preparing prenups. Generally, interviews can be at no cost and, with some pointed questions, you can learn a lot about the process and its costs. If already done, disregard. IME, more information is good information.

 

Since she gave you a one month ultimatum, IMO table it for now, gain further information and see how the process goes. If she's still stuck on that ultimatum with no middle ground for PMC or anything else, well, enjoy the highway. It's a wonderful journey, life.

[BettyDraper]

A completely lopsided pre-nup may not be enforceable, especially if the other party didn't have representation, time to think about it & the ability to negotiate it.

 

 

A good pre-nup is not about cramming something down the other person's throat.

 

 

The fact that the OPs GF got violent & petulant, tells me she may not be marriage material.

 

I agree. A good prenup is meant to be fair to both parties.

[BettyDraper]

I would never sign a pre-nup. A man is asking me to share MY LIFE with him. His fortune, even if he was Bill Gates, is nothing compared to that. To me, he doesn't know me at all because, a) i would never go after his wealth if we divorced, b) I am a smart person who wouldn't made stupid financial mistakes. If a man felt like he needs a pre-nup, then we aren't really to be married. But that is just me.

 

Your gf sounds like she is not so financially stable. Unless you are Bill Gates who has so much assets that getting that money caught up in a divorce could have devastating consequences to other people and companies, I don't believe in pre-nups. It doesn't sound like you have that much money. You either accept the responsibility to partnering with somebody who is not financially strong, or you go find somebody else. It is OK if she isn't good financially as long as she recognizes that and is willing to let you control that part of your lives.

 

So to answer your question, you are not being a jerk, but you are being foolish. You really don't have enough assets to make this an issue. And you also need to face the reality of whom you are choosing to share a life with. Also, living paycheck to paycheck doesn't necessarily mean she is terrible with money. Maybe she just needs some guidance.

 

It's a common misconception that prenups are only needed if one partner is very wealthy. As long as one partner makes far more than the other and has savings as well as any assets, the higher earner will lose a lot of financial security in the event of the divorce. There's nothing wrong with wanting to protect what you've worked so hard for.

 

Living paycheque to paycheque is indicative of financial irresponsibility. The OP has the right to be concerned about marrying someone who is not good with money.

 

Why is anyone's life worth billions? It seems like many women have a sense of entitlement when it comes to relationships and some of us tend to think that marriage is all about love and romance. Practical aspects of marriage need to be looked at once the honeymoon period of engagement ends and the wedding bash is over. Nobody knows what they would do in the event of a divorce so it's easy to say that you wouldn't go after someone's money while you're in love with him.

[DreamP]

Why is anyone's life worth billions? It seems like many women have a sense of entitlement when it comes to relationships and some of us tend to think that marriage is all about love and romance. Practical aspects of marriage need to be looked at once the honeymoon period of engagement ends and the wedding bash is over. Nobody knows what they would do in the event of a divorce so it's easy to say that you wouldn't go after someone's money while you're in love with him.

 

I agree whole heartedly that marriage is a financial partnership. That is why pre-nups don't make sense. If you already know you are partnering up with somebody with poor business sense, than you have to deal with that. A pre-nup to project the ~$50,000 (I'm assuming this is what the OP has for a down-payment on a house) is nothing in the scheme of things. The combined savings of the house, retirement fund, savings, other assets, that accumulate over a marriage is far more. And a pre-nup is not going to project those. So open your eyes and be realistic about the risks you take in marrying somebody. Most people do all these financial savings. They create life together. They intertwine their lives together in financial, social, cultural and emotional ways that are very hard to untangle. $50,000 is a drop in the bucket. If you can't sacrifice that much money for a marriage then either the OP is not ready for marriage or this women is not worth it to get married to. Pre-nups are false securities for people who really don't know or trust their potential spouse. Either reason is a warning signal.

[carhill]

It's a common misconception that prenups are only needed if one partner is very wealthy.

 

Good point, and IME a pre-nup is even more important for a person of average means who's been financially responsible and slowly amassed wealth over many years. Luckily, I didn't marry a money-grabber so my oversight in preparation didn't cost me more than ten years or so of my life's work. A smart lawyer helped, hence my suggestion to the OP to get legal information early.

 

OP, one thing to run past the lawyer is, if I'm understanding correctly, if you're looking at buying a house, flesh out the various scenarios of purchase.

 

As example, if you can pay cash for a modest one and have the financials to borrow money, buy one as sole and separate single, then, if getting married, borrow with your wife and your now co-mingled cash of a far lesser amount for the down payment. She'll share in the asset appreciation and debt for that appreciation, regardless of who makes the payments or covers the expenses. Meanwhile, your other place, maintained out of separate funds, can go into a land trust or LLC and represent the personal fruits of your life's work.

 

If by 'buy a house' you meant you only have enough money for a down payment, disregard my example. Different kettle of fish.

[BlueIris]

A completely lopsided pre-nup may not be enforceable, especially if the other party didn't have representation, time to think about it & the ability to negotiate it.

 

 

A good pre-nup is not about cramming something down the other person's throat.

 

 

The fact that the OPs GF got violent & petulant, tells me she may not be marriage material.

 

Although, to be fair, we don’t know how he raised the issue. Lots of people have very narrow views of prenups and think that they protect only the wealthier, higher earner. But they shouldn’t, as her attorney would tell her and would negotiate for her. She should talk with a very good attorney first. OP, pay for it if she can’t.

 

I’ve certainly seen some men get in a twist about the realities raised in the negotiating process, such as vesting, sacrificing earning and earning potential (e. trailing spouse or being out of the workforce for decades), and quantifying non-financial contributions. Frankly the richer men tend to be far less offended by such things. Quantifying contributions in a marriage is extremely uncomfortable to many people, men and women, because it is not romantic.

 

The process itself is also very good for both “sides” because it’s a recognition of what each brings to the household and how they view each other and the “work” they do. I wouldn’t marry a guy who didn’t naturally acknowledge such things- he’d be the dreamy, Disney-thinker. And if he took offense because he valued only financial contributions, he’d be the jerk.

 

I just want to add that in some jurisdictions (mine is one) a prenup can also govern income earned and assets acquired during the marriage. And again, life and disability insurance for spouse and for children are essential in premarital planning and should be included in the prenup. After all, a dependent spouse can be left with dependent children and almost no earning capacity at divorce or if the earning spouse dies or becomes disabled physically or mentally.

[DreamP]

Living paycheque to paycheque is indicative of financial irresponsibility. The OP has the right to be concerned about marrying someone who is not good with money.

 

We don't know the circumstances around this. We don't know how old she is. If she was 18, would you still have that opinion? I was broke and living paycheck to paycheck when I first got out of college. That was because I had to put myself through college and didn't come from a family with money. I lived on my friend's couch when I couldn't find work and eat 10c ramen noodles. I don't believe I was financial irresponsible but circumstances put me there. Most people live paycheck to paycheck when they first start out unless they have parents to supplement their income or provide housing. I don't want to label the OP's girlfriend without knowing the circumstances.

[Methodical]

Had you been the one to bring it up, I can see where she might have taken offense...that you think deep down she might be a gold digger, but she brought it up, which seems suspect to me. You thought about it for awhile rather than giving a knee jerk response. Her reaction was over the top, imo. Like others have stated, a pre-nup protects assets you have already acquired, which wouldn't be a factor that affects bringing children into the world. Even with a pre-nup, you'd be financially obligated to support them. Any assets or financial wealth accrued during the marriage would be considered equitable distribution. Does she understand that? If so, and her reaction is still volatile, then I'd be leery of her intent.

[Miss Peach]

One other idea OP - I've also hear of people putting in time limits on the prenup. Maybe this is another potential compromise? For example it gets set aside after the first child or 5 years.

[Furious]

We are not technically engaged yet but we have talked about getting married often. She brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I thought about it for a while and said yes.

 

She became very upset and started throwing up even. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

 

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

 

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

 

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

 

 

 

I don't think you're a jerk. If anything your girlfriend has shown very vindictive side of her personality by threatening that if she married you she deny having a family with you.

[ironpony]

I don't think it is wrong to ask for a prenup. I do, however, think it is wrong to draft a prenup that is completely unfair to the partner who has less. Too many women are overly romantic about marriage when it is a business arrangement as much as it is a partnership. Marriage often ends in divorce so it makes sense for people to want to protect themselves. Your girlfriend is living in a fantasy world; looks like she's watched too many Disney movies.

 

That said, my husband makes far more than I ever will and he is the breadwinner. I married him when he had nothing and that's probably one of the reasons we don't have a prenup. He knows that I am not with him only for what he can provide. The only reason I do not work are health issues and the awful employment situation where we live. We moved here in order to afford to buy a house and we were aware of the dismal employment prospects here. If my husband said that he wanted a post nuptial agreement, I wouldn't mind signing one because I respect his hard work and sacrifices.

 

Okay thanks. I didn't say that I was being unfair to the other person completely though did I? I am open to coming up with some sort of an arrangement where she would get something, but she doesn't even want to talk about it it seems.

 

She says I am too 'American', and wishes American men would be more European, and more romantic therefore.

[ironpony]

I would never sign a pre-nup. A man is asking me to share MY LIFE with him. His fortune, even if he was Bill Gates, is nothing compared to that. To me, he doesn't know me at all because, a) i would never go after his wealth if we divorced, b) I am a smart person who wouldn't made stupid financial mistakes. If a man felt like he needs a pre-nup, then we aren't really to be married. But that is just me.

 

Your gf sounds like she is not so financially stable. Unless you are Bill Gates who has so much assets that getting that money caught up in a divorce could have devastating consequences to other people and companies, I don't believe in pre-nups. It doesn't sound like you have that much money. You either accept the responsibility to partnering with somebody who is not financially strong, or you go find somebody else. It is OK if she isn't good financially as long as she recognizes that and is willing to let you control that part of your lives.

 

So to answer your question, you are not being a jerk, but you are being foolish. You really don't have enough assets to make this an issue. And you also need to face the reality of whom you are choosing to share a life with. Also, living paycheck to paycheck doesn't necessarily mean she is terrible with money. Maybe she just needs some guidance.

 

This quote stuck out to me the most right now. I am buying a house right now, and also trying to invest money in starting my own career business. If I got divorced all that would be lost. No business and no place to house to own possibly. Do I have to be as rich as Bill Gates in order to want to protect some my assets, just in case?

 

And I know that a prenup only is for money prior to the marriage and has nothing to do with child custody, like someone mentioned before.

 

I just wanted my house and possibly my business to be mine if something should happen, since I am paying for those two things fully myself. Is that bad, if I am not as rich as someone like Bill Gates.

Edited April 13, 2016 by ironpony

[BlueIris]

This quote stuck out to me the most right now. I am buying a house right now, and also trying to invest money in starting my own career business. If I got divorced all that would be lost. No business and no place to house to own possibly. Do I have to be as rich as Bill Gates in order to want to protect some my assets, just in case?

 

And I know that a prenup only is for money prior to the marriage and has nothing to do with child custody, like someone mentioned before.

 

I just wanted my house and possibly my business to be mine if something should happen, since I am paying for those two things fully myself. Is that bad, if I am not as rich as someone like Bill Gates.

 

No, not at all.

Tell her that the prenup would be intended to protect HER and any kids you might have as well as you. Tell her that you’ll pay for a consultation with an excellent lawyer to represent HER interests. If she can’t deal with that, I don’t know… she’s not realistic about marriage. Another thing you could tell her is that long ago- and still in some cultures today- families negotiated these things.

[elaine567]

At first I wondered about the not having family bit, but of course she sees having his kids, no doubt sacrificing her career and acting as an unpaid nanny/housekeeper for years and years, as her part of the bargain here, and if he is not willing to "pay" for that in any way, then she is under on obligation to uphold her side of the bargain. I get it.

[BlueIris]

Another thing is that a prenup can serve as some protection against The Ugly Divorce, the Mutual Assured Destruction divorce. What if one of you becomes an alcoholic, cheats, does some horrible thing… or is so furious about divorce at some time in the future that he or she decides to take a destructive path in divorce? THAT’s the principal value to a prenup, IMO.

 

The nasty divorce is a terrible and horribly expensive thing and increasingly common, unfortunately.

 

OP, if you're going to have your own business, you and she would be more likely to have a expensive divorce because business valuation would be at issue and income would almost certainly be contested. Divorces involving closely-held businesses are very lucrative for lawyers- their favorite, one might say.

Edited April 13, 2016 by BlueIris

[Methodical]

I don't know the law in all states, but in many, spousal alimony is allotted when one person gives up their career to care for the home/children/etc.